[QuickTidal]

 Cause, on 08 January 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

I sometimes wonder if all his other projects, books, conventions and declining quality of a game of thrones don't perhaps indicate that he has to some degree become bored of his most popular work.

If the TV show based on my work was catching up to or eclipsing my writing of it...then I think I'd honestly wonder if I'd bother finishing it in a timely fashion. Perhaps less boredom and more "why bother"? I dunno. It's GOTTA affect him on some level though.

[Cause]

Knowing my book had become the number 1 hit show in the world would I think be an awesome compliment. Yes people who have never read the book love the show but its still his story. If anything I would be bummed that my story was not controlling the final few seasons.

[Abyss]

 QuickTidal, on 12 January 2016 - 02:33 PM, said:

 Cause, on 08 January 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

I sometimes wonder if all his other projects, books, conventions and declining quality of a game of thrones don't perhaps indicate that he has to some degree become bored of his most popular work.

If the TV show based on my work was catching up to or eclipsing my writing of it...then I think I'd honestly wonder if I'd bother finishing it in a timely fashion. Perhaps less boredom and more "why bother"? I dunno. It's GOTTA affect him on some level though.

 Cause, on 13 January 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Knowing my book had become the number 1 hit show in the world would I think be an awesome compliment. Yes people who have never read the book love the show but its still his story. If anything I would be bummed that my story was not controlling the final few seasons.

He claims its the latter, not the former.

Of course, admitting the former would be authorial suicide so he wouldn't do that even if it were true. Say what one will about GRRM, he's not an idiot.

[Lost Marine]

I gave up on Wheel of Time until it was finished and I think I'll do the same thing here.

Personally, I think he's written himself into a corner. We're all used to sprawling worlds and many story lines to follow. MBotF is a master class in that style of writing. The difference I've seen is that Ericson managed to keep each book as a fairly tidy package. Loose ends were tied up and you were left feeling satisfied at the end of each book. There were still overarching story lines that carried on through the whole series but you felt like measurable progress was made towards finding out what they were.

GRRM started a trilogy, crammed in so many characters, events, rapes, incest, more rapes, (have we had a rape this chapter yet?), locations, subplots, and mysterious beings that he seems to have lost control of where the story needs to go and how to get it to that point. The last two books were weak attempts to either draw the series out longer or try to figure out how to write his way out of the hole he's dug himself. The series has reached a point where things should be speeding up and you should feel a sense of urgency when you read. Instead it just feels like you waited twelve years for some filler. Plus who ends a book on a cliff hanger as severe as the last one ended on and then makes you wait half a decade just to find out.

If he ever finishes the series I'll check them out from the library but I'm done with giving him my money.

[amphibian]

The books take as long to write as they take. I read Dance with Dragons when it came out and I will likely read the next three (I don't think he'll finish in two) when they release as well. If they do.

I'm extremely loath to start talking about mental health issues, but it's possible they have an effect here. Authors like Scott Lynch and Saladin Ahmed have been open about how their books have been majorly stalled by depression. I applaud their willingness to be vulnerable in that way. GRRM may or may not have any of these issues, but even if he doesn't, I'm not going to shit all over him for taking as long as he will with the book-writing. It doesn't cost me to be gracious and patient here.

[polishgenius]

 Lost Marine, on 15 January 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

MBotF is a master class in that style of writing. The difference I've seen is that Ericson managed to keep each book as a fairly tidy package. Loose ends were tied up and you were left feeling satisfied at the end of each book. There were still overarching story lines that carried on through the whole series but you felt like measurable progress was made towards finding out what they were.

I'm not saying I don't think Erikson is a better author than GRRM, because I do, but Malazan literally sprouted a whole other series by a whole different author that wrapped up a good chunk of the plotlines begun in MBotF, and another trilogy by himself to come to cap another major story. The only reason SE betters GRRM in this respect is that he writes quickly so we were never left biting our nails waiting to see if he'd finish; but doing so has the downside of creating plotholes and inconsistencies all over the place and while I'm certainly thankful we didn't have five-year gaps, I think a little more time in the revision stage, especially in the second half of the main series, would have done good.

[HoosierDaddy]

True headline: GRRM tells it like it was, is, and still will be for a long, long time. Settle in.

[amphibian]

I made my peace with long authorial delays over Gene Wolfe and the Latro series.

I think it likely he'll not finish the second series (first three ended in a decent place, then he gave us a fourth book with a cliff-hanger to a fifth book). The first book came out in 1987 and he finished the third by 1990. The unexpected fourth book was published in 2007. So that's 17 years between books.

One of the reasons why he didn't write a fifth book quickly is because he was taking care of his terminally ill wife and figuring out how to pay for everything (didn't make a ton of money throughout his career). Wolfe kept that private for a while, so I was testy about the long delay and his publishing what I see as "lesser works" in Soceror's House, Home Fires, The Land Across etc. Then I found out why he didn't tackle this last dangling project and I felt like an enormous jerk.

People deal with stuff. They can be private about it too. I strongly suggest avoiding any hardline declarations of things regarding this particular delay.

[Tapper]

 amphibian, on 16 January 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

I made my peace with long authorial delays over Gene Wolfe and the Latro series.

I think it likely he'll not finish the second series (first three ended in a decent place, then he gave us a fourth book with a cliff-hanger to a fifth book). The first book came out in 1987 and he finished the third by 1990. The unexpected fourth book was published in 2007. So that's 17 years between books.

One of the reasons why he didn't write a fifth book quickly is because he was taking care of his terminally ill wife and figuring out how to pay for everything (didn't make a ton of money throughout his career). Wolfe kept that private for a while, so I was testy about the long delay and his publishing what I see as "lesser works" in Soceror's House, Home Fires, The Land Across etc. Then I found out why he didn't tackle this last dangling project and I felt like an enormous jerk.

People deal with stuff. They can be private about it too. I strongly suggest avoiding any hardline declarations of things regarding this particular delay.

Yes, no, but.

Yes, GRRM can take as long as he wants. He ought to enjoy life and if the Jets make the post season, more power to him. As long as he and his publishers are cool with the delays, all's fine. If they're not, then I hope they can sort it out.

No, GRRM is not our bitch and we're not forced to hold our collective breaths, are we? His position on not wanting a Jordan/Sanderson is 100% reasonable. In fact, as nice it might have been for WoT fans, the whole idea is a little weird to me.

BUT.... as things stand, this blog post does show either horrible naiveness or a pretension of naievity.
The statement "Look, I never thought the series could possibly catch up with the books, but it has." is frankly laughable. It was already highly likely after season 2 that HBO would finish GoT before Martin would finish aSoIaF, even if he could deliver book 6 before season 6.

Equally strange is the line of thinking that the show moved faster than he thought.
He was involved in writing an episode each season, so he knew the pace, he knew they'd do one book a year and he should have known that AFFC and ADOD were pretty low on filmable content.
On top of that he probably knew HBO's modus operandi of planning a series for 5-7 years, he knew the initial contract and he for sure knew they were filming with lead characters in their early teens who would grow up. Producing filler episodes would not be on the cards.

On top of that, regarding this blog post, it was already highly unlikely that book 6 would influence season 6 as the filming of a season requires a script and is done at multiple locations throughout the year. Martin knows that, and he knew that the actual detailed contents of book 6 would have had almost no direct influence on season 6 from mid 2014 onwards, probably - only the helicopter view of the storyline would.

As for the spoilered last segment... yes, there might be deviations between the books and the show, but how wildly can he deviate from what the show shows in his writing? It wouldn't surprise me if Martin is partially getting his hand forced by the show for book 7. He's losing a chance of establishing canon here, and if for some reason the book's explanation is weaker than the show's, he loses credibility, too. Up until here, the show was seen as taking shortcuts. From now on, we might perceive the book is running into cul-de-sacs and taking de-tours.

Whether he could or should produce faster, is not the point. Imho, the point is that Martin risks becoming much less relevant to the medium that spreads his work to the largest audience possible.
He started in a position of strength: author still writing, alive and involved in the process. Now, the show bypasses him, and he is left having to establish on his blog that GoT is not aSoIaF.

[Traveller]

What I find hard to understand is that of all of his various projects, as aSoIaF is by far what he will be remembered for - his legacy, his creation, his ideas the tv show (so far) have been based on.. why would he not be spending his time finishing it? At this point he must know that he will either be remembered as the guy that wrote an epic series, or the guy that failed to finish one.

There have been any number of 'unfinished' works throughout history, in art as well as literature, and they were usually abandoned for other projects; and often other artists were later called in to finish the job. They're not the projects that get remembered though, they are usually looked at with a regret at what could have been if they'd had the artists undivided attention at the time.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 19 January 2016 - 01:28 PM

[acesn8s]

 Traveller, on 19 January 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

What I find hard to understand is that of all of his various projects, as aSoIaF is by far what he will be remembered for - his legacy, his creation, his ideas the tv show (so far) have been based on.. why would he not be spending his time finishing it? At this point he must know that he will either be remembered as the guy that wrote an epic series, or the guy that failed to finish one.

I would guess severe writer's block or major procrastination.

That being said, if I had that level of "go to hell" money, it would be hard to push me faster than I wanted to go.

[Abyss]

 Tapper, on 19 January 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

...As for the spoilered last segment... yes, there might be deviations between the books and the show, but how wildly can he deviate from what the show shows in his writing?

Quite a bit actually.


Not the bestest example perhaps, but the DA VINCI CODE film and book have very different endings.

[Gorefest]

 Tapper, on 19 January 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

As for the spoilered last segment... yes, there might be deviations between the books and the show, but how wildly can he deviate from what the show shows in his writing?

In the books, Ice wins. In the show, Fire wins. You heard it here first.

[Aptorian]

Oh it's going to be like the pokemon series. You get Song Red and Song Blue. You need to buy both to get all the characters. Then you make them fight in the pokemon arena.

[QuickTidal]

 Abyss, on 19 January 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

 Tapper, on 19 January 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

...As for the spoilered last segment... yes, there might be deviations between the books and the show, but how wildly can he deviate from what the show shows in his writing?

Quite a bit actually.


Not the bestest example perhaps, but the DA VINCI CODE film and book have very different endings.

Not the bestest indeed sir...technically the movie just ended before the epilogue in the book. The end result is pretty much the same. Sophie is revealed to be of the bloodline...the only missing difference is the revelation that she has a surviving brother from the car crash in the book...in the film she simply doesn't have a brother. I think the only way that it makes a big difference is the book gives the reason for them being separated is that the bloodline would survive better if they didn't grow up together. Otherwise, it's the pretty much same ending.

On topic, I don't see any way that GRRM could end the books differently enough from the show to make it worthwhile...but that's me being pessimistic about the odds.

Also, if TWOW has as much wandering and food/clothing description as the previous two volumes, I may check out of the whole book series based on that.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 19 January 2016 - 06:00 PM

[theocean]

the odds of getting a completed series by him has got to be under 50/50. Hes right he owes us nothing and that's the way it is with authors they write when they write, but as a fan it sucks ass.

[Gorefest]

 theocean, on 19 January 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

the odds of getting a completed series by him has got to be under 50/50. Hes right he owes us nothing and that's the way it is with authors they write when they write, but as a fan it sucks ass.

I always find the 'doesn't own us anything' remark a bit too easy. Don't forget that tons of people have paid money for a product. The product came with an expectation. Sure, it is his creative property and nobody can force him to finish it etc. But on the other hand, he accepted the book deal and the tv deal, so at that point you do enter into a commercial agreement, no matter how crass and base that may sound.

[worry]

Please change thread title to "EVERYBODY tells it like it is, and yet, startlingly different conclusions have been reached".

[Lost Marine]

 polishgenius, on 15 January 2016 - 11:26 PM, said:

 Lost Marine, on 15 January 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

MBotF is a master class in that style of writing. The difference I've seen is that Ericson managed to keep each book as a fairly tidy package. Loose ends were tied up and you were left feeling satisfied at the end of each book. There were still overarching story lines that carried on through the whole series but you felt like measurable progress was made towards finding out what they were.

I'm not saying I don't think Erikson is a better author than GRRM, because I do, but Malazan literally sprouted a whole other series by a whole different author that wrapped up a good chunk of the plotlines begun in MBotF, and another trilogy by himself to come to cap another major story. The only reason SE betters GRRM in this respect is that he writes quickly so we were never left biting our nails waiting to see if he'd finish; but doing so has the downside of creating plotholes and inconsistencies all over the place and while I'm certainly thankful we didn't have five-year gaps, I think a little more time in the revision stage, especially in the second half of the main series, would have done good.

That's true, to be fair though it was planned as a shared sandbox that they would both get to write about, also the main storyline was wrapped up pretty well. I don't have a problem with leaving a loose thread here or there for future writings. What I dislike is not even coming close to finishing the main storyline. ASoIaF was intended to be a trilogy that bloated to what it is now, the main storyline seems to have been fairly well lost and there is no end in sight. That's what annoys me, with MBotF you always had the feeling that it was moving along.

[Tsundoku]

 Lost Marine, on 25 January 2016 - 07:27 PM, said:

That's true, to be fair though it was planned as a shared sandbox that they would both get to write about, also the main storyline was wrapped up pretty well. I don't have a problem with leaving a loose thread here or there for future writings. What I dislike is not even coming close to finishing the main storyline. ASoIaF was intended to be a trilogy that bloated to what it is now, the main storyline seems to have been fairly well lost and there is no end in sight. That's what annoys me, with MBotF you always had the feeling that it was moving along.

You could have said the same of the Wheel of Time in the late 90s and early naughties. Considering that - as with ASoIaF - I bought all of them as they came out, I distinctly recall WoT being marketed as a trilogy very early on in the piece. I even preordered The Dragon Reborn as early rumours (yes, yes I know don't trust them but they were quite widespread and consistent at the time) had it as the conclusion.

"Bloated" is most definitely the best description here for both series as both authors let their greed and egos run rampant. Both were the massive standouts of this generation that simply had no other real competition, and the vested interests in both milked those bitches for all they were worth. It's like deja freaking vu.