[flea]

The key to the Second Amendment is one of syntax and the meaning of the clause in the first part. So much of the rhetoric of the extreme right wing in this country is based on a denial of reality -- global warming is not the only instance. What makes me fear for our future is how mainstream this alternate reality has become, starting with Ronald Reagan, who had a tenuous grasp on reality even before he developed Alzheimer's. This strain of political paranoia and psychosis has always been present, but historically it was at the fringe. Here is decent discussion of the meaning of the first clause: http://blogs.denverp...n-rights/33796/

[Andorion]

flea, on 03 October 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

A friend of mine on Facebook wrote the following, which is a sensible policy:

A longtime friend just asked a great question. I post a lot about gun issues, but I never post exactly what I want to see done about our gun problem in America. So, here goes:

The Second Amendment is in the Constitution, so banning/confiscating all guns outright isn't an option (nor should it be.) However, despite what Scalia, Thomas and the other conservative Supreme Court justices think, the Second Amendment contains the words "well regulated."

For starters, I'd advocate for these regulations (which I consider to be "common-sense" and which I believe people who are truly "law-abiding gun owners" should be willing to adopt:)

- Mandatory background checks and waiting periods for all firearm purchases or ownership transfers, including private sales and gifts
- Close the "gun show" loophole
- Ban semi-automatic assault weapons and high-capacity magazines
- Ban all open carry laws and institute a national concealed carry permitting process. When someone passes the concealed carry requirements, they should be allowed to carry in all 50 states.
- Require serial numbers and registration of all firearms
- Require mandatory training for all gun owners, and updated training/background checks every five or so years
- Require gun owners to carry a minimum level of liability insurance for their firearms -- one policy per gun owned
- Require that at least basic gun locks are included with every firearm sale, possibly by the manufacturers
- Make gun owners legally responsible for whatever happens with their weapons -- unless they've been registered and are immediately reported stolen should that happen
- Ban the sale of firearms to anyone with a history of violence, criminal activity or mental instability. Setup a nationwide database to track the list (much like we've done with TSA's "no fly" list)
- Rescind the ban on using federal money for gun research
- Rescind the 2005 law that protects gun manufacturers and dealers from all liability lawsuits
- Nationally ban any laws at state levels that prevent doctors from talking with their patients about guns
- Since the federal government is the single largest purchaser of guns and ammo in America, require any firearm or ammunition companies that bid on government contracts to provide data on how they regulate their sales channels while setting minimum standards for gun safety tactics they're required to implement in their products and procedures. No compliance, no government-funded contract.

Interestingly, in most of the rules I outlined above, cars could be substituted for guns as we already require people who drive vehicles to meet a vast majority of these standards.

Now...guess how many of these items are supported by the NRA and most of their members?

All of these make a lot of sense. I was thinking about the car analogy myself. You wouldn't let a mentally damaged person drive, why would you give him a gun?

[Gredfallan Ale]

Andorion, on 03 October 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

All of these make a lot of sense. I was thinking about the car analogy myself. You wouldn't let a mentally damaged person drive, why would you give him a gun?

I have seriously no idea.

Following a shopping mall shooting in my country, the procedures and checks for gun permits were re-evaluated, tightened and more strictly enforced, as the perpetrator had a history of psychiatric problems, including schizophrenia/paranoid, but still managed to get a permit for three guns, including the one he used during the shooting. However, such a system is never going to be watertight, even under the old rules he should have never been granted a permit, and the strict enforcement might wane as the attention for the case wanes.

However, guns are a rarity here, although we have had a lot organized crime assassinations in the last decade or so. (Although I doubt that the guns used were legally purchased with a permit.)

[worry]

One other thing to make clear is that the vast majority of Americans, including NRA members, tend to agree with most of the reforms cited above. This is one of the clearest cases of money = power out there though. The NRA leadership is beholden not to its individual members but to the gun industry, and the politicians go where the money is. There's also a phenomenon of the NRA being pulled right by competing groups (like Gunowners of America). You could think of the NRA like establishment Republicans and GOA as the Tea Party. Same competition towards the extreme.

[Itwæs Nom]

Gredfallan Ale, on 03 October 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

However, guns are a rarity here, although we have had a lot organized crime assassinations in the last decade or so. (Although I doubt that the guns used were legally purchased with a permit.)

Pff, Czech assasins took it way further. For example this assault on our President in 2012, lead by professional communist assasin, training years for this one action. Fortunately bodyguards were so fast and brutal,that this trained professional only managed to inflict minor injuries before it all was over.

[Nicodimas]

Quote

- Mandatory background checks and waiting periods for all firearm purchases or ownership transfers, including private sales and gifts
- Close the "gun show" loophole
- Ban semi-automatic assault weapons and high-capacity magazines
- Ban all open carry laws and institute a national concealed carry permitting process. When someone passes the concealed carry requirements, they should be allowed to carry in all 50 states.
- Require serial numbers and registration of all firearms
- Require mandatory training for all gun owners, and updated training/background checks every five or so years
- Require gun owners to carry a minimum level of liability insurance for their firearms -- one policy per gun owned
- Require that at least basic gun locks are included with every firearm sale, possibly by the manufacturers
- Make gun owners legally responsible for whatever happens with their weapons -- unless they've been registered and are immediately reported stolen should that happen
- Ban the sale of firearms to anyone with a history of violence, criminal activity or mental instability. Setup a nationwide database to track the list (much like we've done with TSA's "no fly" list)
- Rescind the ban on using federal money for gun research
- Rescind the 2005 law that protects gun manufacturers and dealers from all liability lawsuits
- Nationally ban any laws at state levels that prevent doctors from talking with their patients about guns
- Since the federal government is the single largest purchaser of guns and ammo in America, require any firearm or ammunition companies that bid on government contracts to provide data on how they regulate their sales channels while setting minimum standards for gun safety tactics they're required to implement in their products and procedures. No compliance, no government-funded contract.

Most of the above is gibberish nonsense. You can totally tell they have no exposure to guns. First of all stop and think and remember America has 300 million guns already out there.

Here is some measures that will help curb the ignorance:

A) Mandatory gun training in grade school-high school on all weapons systems.
Install a culture of self defense/physical training in children, you don't need to resort to a weapon...
C) Hold Doctors accountable for giving children (Mind Warping) SSRI drugs and then yanking them.
D) Institute a Policy of legal concealed carry nation-wide with no permit needed.
E) Figure out ways to prevent and ban gun-free zones
F) Research mind altering drugs side effects from big Pharma on a larger scale
G) Create a List for people that are Anti-gun, figure out ways to re-educate this part of the populace.
H) Government subsidized National Gun Care program, every year allow money for each citizen toward buying a gun, ammo and training.

[Nicodimas]

Some information to review:

https://www.corbettr...-mass-killings/


http://www.democrati...com/10022021581

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 05 October 2015 - 06:38 PM

[Gnaw]

Using world nut daily as a source Nico?? I thought you were more sane than that.

[Obdigore]

Nicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

Quote

- Mandatory background checks and waiting periods for all firearm purchases or ownership transfers, including private sales and gifts
- Close the "gun show" loophole
- Ban semi-automatic assault weapons and high-capacity magazines
- Ban all open carry laws and institute a national concealed carry permitting process. When someone passes the concealed carry requirements, they should be allowed to carry in all 50 states.
- Require serial numbers and registration of all firearms
- Require mandatory training for all gun owners, and updated training/background checks every five or so years
- Require gun owners to carry a minimum level of liability insurance for their firearms -- one policy per gun owned
- Require that at least basic gun locks are included with every firearm sale, possibly by the manufacturers
- Make gun owners legally responsible for whatever happens with their weapons -- unless they've been registered and are immediately reported stolen should that happen
- Ban the sale of firearms to anyone with a history of violence, criminal activity or mental instability. Setup a nationwide database to track the list (much like we've done with TSA's "no fly" list)
- Rescind the ban on using federal money for gun research
- Rescind the 2005 law that protects gun manufacturers and dealers from all liability lawsuits
- Nationally ban any laws at state levels that prevent doctors from talking with their patients about guns
- Since the federal government is the single largest purchaser of guns and ammo in America, require any firearm or ammunition companies that bid on government contracts to provide data on how they regulate their sales channels while setting minimum standards for gun safety tactics they're required to implement in their products and procedures. No compliance, no government-funded contract.

Most of the above is gibberish nonsense. You can totally tell they have no exposure to guns. First of all stop and think and remember America has 300 million guns already out there.

Here is some measures that will help curb the ignorance:

A) Mandatory gun training in grade school-high school on all weapons systems.
Install a culture of self defense/physical training in children, you don't need to resort to a weapon...
C) Hold Doctors accountable for giving children (Mind Warping) SSRI drugs and then yanking them.
D) Institute a Policy of legal concealed carry nation-wide with no permit needed.
E) Figure out ways to prevent and ban gun-free zones
F) Research mind altering drugs side effects from big Pharma on a larger scale
G) Create a List for people that are Anti-gun, figure out ways to re-educate this part of the populace.
H) Government subsidized National Gun Care program, every year allow money for each citizen toward buying a gun, ammo and training.

So what you are saying is that 'The only thing that prevents a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun'.

You ignore the entire rest of the western world with this thought, as well as, well, everything the US has learned about gun violence before the NRA made it illegal to study gun violence causes.

This, right here, is why you have a shelter and 70 years of canned food. Because you WANT that to happen, and espouse positions that will drive our entire society that way.

[LinearPhilosopher]

amphibian, on 02 October 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

Deliberate cultural construct present mostly among those who don't live in major cities (which usually have tight controls on guns).

Gun ownership has always been fairly prevalent (I know many, many people who have one and many who have upwards of three) throughout American history, but it wasn't a culturally fetishized thing until maybe the 1970s and 1980s. Most of the people who have guns are white people and the reasons for that are somewhat systemic/institutional.

Not coincidentally, the people going most nuts about gun/ammunition restrictions are white people who are afraid of losing their power/position in society. It also doesn't help that many of the politicians trying to enact gun/ammunition restrictions do not actually understand how guns mechanically work, what the impact of their proposed legislation would be (often different from what they are intending to do), and often make the gun-havers feel threatened with rhetoric.

That would have been around the time the NRA had its corporate takeover which fundamentally changed the NRA to what it is today.



Somewhat dated but its still accurate. Until something drastic occurs where the NRA doesn't get to buy political power, nothing will happen. Im sure those with the money and pulling the strings would adopt the same position even if their own children were victimised.

I also think that given how widespread guns are in the states, how gun are a cultural and sometimes even religious ysmbol (lookup guns and bibles) you will never get rid of them, and youll never get a reasonable set of controls. As such what alternative does one have but to go to the opposite extreme where EVERYONE has a weapon. Even though it would make more sense to control weapons it's simply not going to happen in the states. So the only thing you can do is arm everyone.

And yes you're going to get more gun violence as a result, more accidental deaths, more gun related crime at least mass shooting won't be as bad as you've levelled the playing field. But hey it's not like more people die from gun accidents than mass shootings.

Also here's an interesting editorial i came across im curious as to what you all think about it.
http://markmanson.net/school-shootings

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 05 October 2015 - 07:05 PM

[Nicodimas]

Quote

So what you are saying is that 'The only thing that prevents a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun

Why do Cops Carry guns? This is a poor argument, try harder.

No, everything I am stating makes more sense, you can still opt-out, but as our society stands right now...its different then how you perceive. We will never have enough cops to patrol every area. You cannot make guns go poof. So what is the most reasonable and prudent course of action. To Ban and try to place all these rules on the gun argument? Or to train everyone and educate the populace.

[Nicodimas]

Let's break down Gun Crime into two areas, the 3rd is people opting out of reality <suicide>.

A)Socio-economic impacted areas.
Chicago anyone?
http://crime.chicago...icago/shootings

This is arguably the most important area of the gun culture and control, IMO that all money should be diverted to in this argument. This is what every gun control person should be working to try to fix.

B)Passion Killings and Psychotic breaks.

Mental health would involve in prevention of these situations. More money toward big Pharma research. Also, identifying people that should have mental health teams showing up at there door to do involuntary holds. Involuntary holds used to be easier to do in the past, but people now have pills/rights. Human rights advocates have really removed these from modern society and placed so many rules to make this happen. What if in society we let improved nut houses back with professional pysch team's set up to help people going through temporary problems to get needed help? A idea I have pondered.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 05 October 2015 - 07:15 PM

[Obdigore]

Nicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Quote

So what you are saying is that 'The only thing that prevents a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun

This is a poor argument, try harder.

I agree, the basis of your argument is shit and bad and you should feel bad.

Tell me how does the rest of the world have so little gun violence, because they hand out guns like party favors and train the entire populace how to use them?

I'll wait until you bring stats showing why Germany, Italy, the UK, NZ, and Australia have so much less gun violence than the US does.

PS - extra credit for showing how the Australia gun buyback and new gun laws somehow increased gun crime in a country that prides itself on its frontier lifestyle and individualism (kind of like the US?).

[Itwæs Nom]

Nicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Quote

So what you are saying is that 'The only thing that prevents a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun

Why do Cops Carry guns? This is a poor argument, try harder.

No, everything I am stating makes more sense, you can still opt-out, but as our society stands right now...its different then how you perceive. We will never have enough cops to patrol every area. You cannot make guns go poof. So what is the most reasonable and prudent course of action. To Ban and try to place all these rules on the gun argument? Or to train everyone and educate the populace.

Im not sure what exactly would education of people in using guns help to. Well, Im not from US so I dont know about situation there so much, but I think the problem is that guns there are just everywhere and anyone can get one. Here in Europe people rarely think of getting gun, and rather because its something like their hobby than for self-defense. And then shooting ranges are often enough for them to have fun with guns. And when they get the gun, its not usually automatic rifle with 3 attached grenade launchers and 1k bullets magazines (yeah, I dont really know much about guns).

Your education would just lead to more tense situation imho. Also its not that hard to shoot a gun, is it? Seriously, I think enough people in US have guns and can shoot them and it doesnt seem to be stopping all the shooters, idk if more of that would help.
And cops carry guns because theyre cops, and theyre cops because theyre prob not going to shoot random people in schools. Good guy with gun does not prevent bad guy with gun, but he will stand against him. Those regulations wont make guns go poof, we all know that, but they dont have to disappear until tommorow, nor until next year. But the numbers will be getting lower and the lower the numbers, the lower will be numbers of all the shootings and armed robberies and stuff, that means preventing the bad guys with guns. Bad guys will be still there ofcourse, but more often with knives.

On the other side what I see might be problem is the black market with guns, dealing guns would get more profitable, right? Which would lead to government having to deal with it and spend more money on that.

And theres some point with those drugs.

I dont even know what Im typing anymore, does that even makes any sense lol?

This post has been edited by Charlie Nom: 05 October 2015 - 07:30 PM

[Nicodimas]

Obdigore, on 05 October 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Nicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Quote

So what you are saying is that 'The only thing that prevents a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun

This is a poor argument, try harder.

I agree, the basis of your argument is shit and bad and you should feel bad.

Tell me how does the rest of the world have so little gun violence, because they hand out guns like party favors and train the entire populace how to use them?

I'll wait until you bring stats showing why Germany, Italy, the UK, NZ, and Australia have so much less gun violence than the US does.

PS - extra credit for showing how the Australia gun buyback and new gun laws somehow increased gun crime in a country that prides itself on its frontier lifestyle and individualism (kind of like the US?).

You pose some good arguments and I understand where you are coming from in your argument. I really do, but it's not the right angle, how does anything you are stating curb crime? You need to start at why the crime starts and which areas. By ignoring the problem and focusing the energy toward the thing they grab, we as society aren't making fixes towards our society itself.

On the problem you have to pick an area that is accomplishable. We need to work on research toward curbing Violence via education and socio-economic areas.

[Vengeance]

Nicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

Let's break down Gun Crime into two areas, the 3rd is people opting out of reality <suicide>.

A)Socio-economic impacted areas.
Chicago anyone?
http://crime.chicago...icago/shootings

This is arguably the most important area of the gun culture and control, IMO that all money should be diverted to in this argument. This is what every gun control person should be working to try to fix.

B)Passion Killings and Psychotic breaks.

Mental health would involve in prevention of these situations. More money toward big Pharma research. Also, identifying people that should have mental health teams showing up at there door to do involuntary holds. Involuntary holds used to be easier to do in the past, but people now have pills/rights. Human rights advocates have really removed these from modern society and placed so many rules to make this happen. What if in society we let improved nut houses back with professional pysch team's set up to help people going through temporary problems to get needed help? A idea I have pondered.

Any studies are only partially and privately done because congress won't let the CDC or just about anyone else actually study gun related deaths and violence.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Vengeance, on 05 October 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

Nicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

Let's break down Gun Crime into two areas, the 3rd is people opting out of reality <suicide>.

A)Socio-economic impacted areas.
Chicago anyone?
http://crime.chicago...icago/shootings

This is arguably the most important area of the gun culture and control, IMO that all money should be diverted to in this argument. This is what every gun control person should be working to try to fix.

B)Passion Killings and Psychotic breaks.

Mental health would involve in prevention of these situations. More money toward big Pharma research. Also, identifying people that should have mental health teams showing up at there door to do involuntary holds. Involuntary holds used to be easier to do in the past, but people now have pills/rights. Human rights advocates have really removed these from modern society and placed so many rules to make this happen. What if in society we let improved nut houses back with professional pysch team's set up to help people going through temporary problems to get needed help? A idea I have pondered.

Any studies are only partially and privately done because congress won't let the CDC or just about anyone else actually study gun related deaths and violence.

In regards to point b
http://www.huffingto..._n_2311009.html

In volountary holds raise the question of who cares for them, how? that costs $$$$$$$

[Macros]

Im sorry Nico, but some of your ideas are fucking batshit insane.
Teach kids how to use guns? hell no.

Pull guns off the street, make it illegal to have them without a license, make it tough to get a license, hand out massive fucking penalties for having a gun without declaring it and having a license.
simples.
it wont happen over night but if the market isnt flooded with guns, and they are actively being lifted off the street, numbers will come down. less people with guns = less shootings.
seems like a simple equation?
that's because it is


Before ....96? Australia had like 10 mass shootings in ten years, then the really bad one happened. They clamped the fuck down on gun law, and guess what? the next ten yeas they had none.
seems like a simple equation?
that's because it is

[Nicodimas]

Vengeance, on 05 October 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

Nicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

Let's break down Gun Crime into two areas, the 3rd is people opting out of reality <suicide>.

A)Socio-economic impacted areas.
Chicago anyone?
http://crime.chicago...icago/shootings

This is arguably the most important area of the gun culture and control, IMO that all money should be diverted to in this argument. This is what every gun control person should be working to try to fix.

B)Passion Killings and Psychotic breaks.

Mental health would involve in prevention of these situations. More money toward big Pharma research. Also, identifying people that should have mental health teams showing up at there door to do involuntary holds. Involuntary holds used to be easier to do in the past, but people now have pills/rights. Human rights advocates have really removed these from modern society and placed so many rules to make this happen. What if in society we let improved nut houses back with professional pysch team's set up to help people going through temporary problems to get needed help? A idea I have pondered.

Any studies are only partially and privately done because congress won't let the CDC or just about anyone else actually study gun related deaths and violence.

Well I agree that the CDC shouldn't be doing it, but it's common sense to run this study with some money behind it. That's bullshit. DOD should be able to do this. I'm going to review this more as that is appalling. I would have different point of view why this doesn't occur...

[Obdigore]

Nicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

Obdigore, on 05 October 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Nicodimas, on 05 October 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

Quote

So what you are saying is that 'The only thing that prevents a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun

This is a poor argument, try harder.

I agree, the basis of your argument is shit and bad and you should feel bad.

Tell me how does the rest of the world have so little gun violence, because they hand out guns like party favors and train the entire populace how to use them?

I'll wait until you bring stats showing why Germany, Italy, the UK, NZ, and Australia have so much less gun violence than the US does.

PS - extra credit for showing how the Australia gun buyback and new gun laws somehow increased gun crime in a country that prides itself on its frontier lifestyle and individualism (kind of like the US?).

You pose some good arguments and I understand where you are coming from in your argument. I really do, but it's not the right angle, how does anything you are stating curb crime? You need to start at why the crime starts and which areas. By ignoring the problem and focusing the energy toward the thing they grab, we as society aren't making fixes towards our society itself.

On the problem you have to pick an area that is accomplishable. We need to work on research toward curbing Violence via education and socio-economic areas.

I'm not sure why you think our government can only work on one angle to one problem forever and ever.

So you admit that the proliferation of firearms leads to a much increased death rate compared to the rest of the western world? Yes? Good.

What is the absolute fastest way to start reducing this, since fixing our inherent socio-economic issues is going to take decades (especially since the same party that is against any limits on gun is against fixing these issues?)? Answer is - a gun buyback. I'd like to see all handguns and anything that is semi automatic made illegal and bought back by the government to be destroyed, except for a few weapons kept on hand for things like competitive shooting at gun clubs. Weapons that don't leave the premesis.

Meanwhile you can do things like instituting a guaranteed minimum income, fixing the tax rates on the middle and upper classes, and fixing how we design cities, which will take decades but it will go a long way towards remediating a lot of the socio economic problems that cause crime.

The next time you say something 'isn't the right angle', please realize that laws aren't passed in a vacuum. That initiatives should encompass a wide and well thought out range of solutions, all of which work together to solve the base problem. Expecting 100% solutions from a single law is the same idiocy that states 'macro economics is like balancing a household checkbook!' and 'if Iran doesn't do what we say, we'll invade!'.

Me for Emperor. I will initiate a space-marine program immediately. Choose your Chapters.