[Werthead]

Visually spectacular episode, some very nice feels moments (ToJ and Tyrion being named Hand) but also some illusory jeopardy: House Tyrell by itself can destroy the Lannisters with almost contemptuous ease. Combined with the Martells, maybe throw in an alliance with the Starks/Arryns and who the hell needs Daenerys? Cersei is toast, she has no power apart from being in King's Landing and sitting on the throne itself, and that's not worth much by itself.

If anything the show has given too much power to the good guys in the finale and made them set up for a fairly easy win over Cersei in Season 7. I expect there to be complications, such as maybe an alliance between Euron and Cersei and maybe Euron whipping out at a dragon-controlling horn at an inopportune moment, but I think by the end of Season 7 Cersei will be dead, Dany will be in-theatre, the Wall will be down and we'll be set for the endgame. I do think that S7's Northern storyline is going to be a growing rift between Sansa and Jon that threatens to turn into civil war, but is averted by Bran showing up and revealing the truth of Jon's parentage. Jon can then claim the Iron Throne directly and promote Sansa to either Queen in the North or the ruling lady, whatever works.

And yes, the show timeline is completely screwed by this point. I think it was worked out that given the other distances travelled, Sam and Gilly arriving in Oldtown must actually happen somewhere around Episode 3 or 4 of Season 6 in respect to what's going on in, say, Jon's storyline.

Maybe they could ask Erikson for advice on straightening the timeline out?

Kanyemander West, on 27 June 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

I think all you guys are wrong and the person who named it the Narrow Sea knew what he was talking about.

Meereen isn't on the Narrow Sea, though. It's on Slaver's Bay/Bay of Dragons, which is three thousand miles to the east of Westeros. The Narrow Sea is the very narrow body of water between Westeros and the west coast of Essos. It would take Varys, what, maybe six months to travel from Meereen to Sunspear and back again? It actually helps quite a lot if we think that happened and months passed in the finale alone, since it untangles everything and we join Season 7 with the fleet having been sailing for months, Sam having been in Oldtown studying for months, Cersei consolidating her rule etc.

[polishgenius]

Nevyn, on 27 June 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 27 June 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

Also, with Margaery going up in the conflagration with everyone else...what was the purpose of her fake-out religious turn (and Loras's) to get out of jail...I mean as far as the showrunners are concerned? Just to fire up her grandmother and get the Dornish involved? Seems like she was set up to do something with her freedom...but it seems it was all for naught. Perhaps just to add weight to Cersei not caring and taking everyone out?

I realize that they seemed to be hinting at more, but really I think the only purpose of that moment was to get Olenna out of King's Landing. Margaery tries to protect her from the Sparrow and instead ends up saving her from Cersei, providing another strong ally for Dany.

I actually liked that. I was just thinking a couple of days ago how, once you get used to the pattern, aSoIaF (and GoT by extension) has become in a little way predictable, or at least unsurprising, with its character deaths, because once you trace back, you can see that often this is where their character arcs were leading (this isn't necessarily a bad thing narratively, but I don't think it's what aSoIaF has been aiming for by and large). Comparing this to books like Lonesome Dove and my recent favourite the Red Knight series where characters all have ongoing, long running arcs and ambitions and things they're being aimed at and for some of them this will just be interrupted by sudden death.

As soon as Margaery bit it I was like 'that's exactly what I'm talking about'. She had things in motion, in-story and narratively - even in the midst of the scene they had her blow her cover as an obedient brainwashed servant, and the High Sparrow realising this, to try to get them all out- and it got truncated not because she made any specific mistakes or inevitable choices that led to tragedy but because Cersei went mental.

[Cause]

R and L could not marry since he was already married?

[polishgenius]

Werthead, on 27 June 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

Visually spectacular episode, some very nice feels moments (ToJ and Tyrion being named Hand) but also some illusory jeopardy: House Tyrell by itself can destroy the Lannisters with almost contemptuous ease. Combined with the Martells, maybe throw in an alliance with the Starks/Arryns and who the hell needs Daenerys? Cersei is toast, she has no power apart from being in King's Landing and sitting on the throne itself, and that's not worth much by itself.

She also presumably has a huge stash of wildfire that she can threaten people with, but I do think Cersei's meant to be doomed rather than the main antagonist. Littlefinger has from the start been the prime villain on the human side of things, and it could be that this is where that's finally put front and center. I think tensions between Jon and Danaerys, Jon and Sansa/Littlefinger and Dany and her crazy new allies (Ollenna and Dorne, that is - Ellaria's not that far different to Cersei at this stage, she's hardly a comfy bedfellow), are likely to carry more real weight than Cersei, who's likely to become more of a wildcard in between the two, to be saved for the big finale episode- that or she gets gobbled early, but this seems unlikely.

There is a definite misbalance in forces. Complications have to arise, but yes, almost certainly by the end of the season they'll be uniting to go zombie-hunting. Final shot of next season will probably be the wall crumbling.

[Coltaine -]

amphibian, on 27 June 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

I now realize what Arya did moves the pie from dark humor to flat out South Park a la Cartman with Scott Tenorman. Just over the top nonsense.

The writing on this show has been very uneven.

Had the same feeling with this scene. She killed two (?) Freys, butchered them and baked them into a pie. Seriously? Arya sneaking into the Twins and killing some Freys should have been enough I think.

BTW, how did she get that face? Did she kill the girl to disguise as her? I know that there is no answer for that in the episode, but aside from stealing some faces from the House of Black and White there is no other way.

[Primateus]

Nevyn, on 27 June 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

Lady Mormont is awesome, but yeah, too much rallying too soon to a guy who just proved why he should not command, and still not legitimate.

I'm going to go with the "completely irrelevant" line about Jon's legitimacy. Like Greatjon Umber said in the first season "Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in the south?"

He's basically saying that the south and their rules can go fuck themselves and that the northerners will decide for themselves who is or is not their king. That Jon might not technically be a Stark, well, that's an entirely different matter.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Can't quote as on the mobile version of the site, but to answer Cause's question-

There is a historical precedent for polygamy in the Targaryen family (Aegon and his sisters) and in the books Dany sees a vision of Rhaegar telling Elia "the dragon must have three heads" - the important thing for Rhaegar with the prophecy in mind was for him to have another child. Elia's health was fragile and it's assumed she couldn't bear more children after Aegon.

For the third child to be a head of the dragonwe assume they would need to be a Targaryen. Ergo, Rhaegar marries Lyanna.

As for the episode - awesome. 10/10. Minor quibbles but I just don't want to make them, I enjoyed it too much.

I know we all knew, but getting confirmation was sweet. Jon Targaryen. At last!

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 27 June 2016 - 09:57 PM

[Werthead]

Cause, on 27 June 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

R and L could not marry since he was already married?

The Targaryens could take more than one wife at a time. It hadn't been done since Maegor the Cruel because of custom, but by law they could still do it. In fact, I think there was a theory that Aegon IV had done it in secret but hadn't wanted to go public with it, which might have given the Blackfyre Rebellion more impetus if the Blackfyres suspected that was the case (as they'd be true Targaryens in that case, not just a legitimised bastard house).

[worry]

Werthead, on 27 June 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

Meereen isn't on the Narrow Sea, though. It's on Slaver's Bay/Bay of Dragons, which is three thousand miles to the east of Westeros. The Narrow Sea is the very narrow body of water between Westeros and the west coast of Essos. It would take Varys, what, maybe six months to travel from Meereen to Sunspear and back again? It actually helps quite a lot if we think that happened and months passed in the finale alone, since it untangles everything and we join Season 7 with the fleet having been sailing for months, Sam having been in Oldtown studying for months, Cersei consolidating her rule etc.

Space-time behaves differently in Winter. The cold affects the molecules. I know this kind of stuff is tough for the layman, but it has to do with how sea waves replicate folds.
Save

[Terez]

Interesting bit from Lena Headey's EW interview about the finale:

Quote

People usually don't leave the Iron Throne alive, though. Does that have you concerned?
No. I've always said that when it happens, as long as it's kinda glorious and gory and it's by the right person…

And who is the right person?
I think it has to be Arya or Tyrion.

Yes, Tyrion would be interesting…
No one would relish her death as much as he would.

Plus you'd love to do that scene with Peter.
Love. Maybe we could have a dying kiss or something.

She apparently doesn't know the full prophecy. I'm hoping they filmed the whole thing and they're just saving it for later; since it was young Cersei, Lena Headey might not be aware. In any case, it's kind of weird that she doesn't even consider it will be Jaime. In the books, she's convinced it's Tyrion, but that's what convinces me it won't be.

[Nevyn]

Terez, on 28 June 2016 - 01:27 AM, said:

Interesting bit from Lena Headey's EW interview about the finale:


She apparently doesn't know the full prophecy. I'm hoping they filmed the whole thing and they're just saving it for later; since it was young Cersei, Lena Headey might not be aware. In any case, it's kind of weird that she doesn't even consider it will be Jaime. In the books, she's convinced it's Tyrion, but that's what convinces me it won't be.

They may have never filmed that bit of it anyway. It would take awkward exposition to explain what valonqar means. Can't do it in an flashback without another flashback, and Cersei never tells anyone.

[Nevyn]

Kanyemander West, on 27 June 2016 - 11:40 PM, said:

Werthead, on 27 June 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

Meereen isn't on the Narrow Sea, though. It's on Slaver's Bay/Bay of Dragons, which is three thousand miles to the east of Westeros. The Narrow Sea is the very narrow body of water between Westeros and the west coast of Essos. It would take Varys, what, maybe six months to travel from Meereen to Sunspear and back again? It actually helps quite a lot if we think that happened and months passed in the finale alone, since it untangles everything and we join Season 7 with the fleet having been sailing for months, Sam having been in Oldtown studying for months, Cersei consolidating her rule etc.

Space-time behaves differently in Winter. The cold affects the molecules. I know this kind of stuff is tough for the layman, but it has to do with how sea waves replicate folds.
Save

Its not particularly cold in Mereen or Dorne either.

The real answer is that losing your wedding tackle streamlines you and makes you an ultra fast swimmer.

[Nevyn]

Primateus, on 27 June 2016 - 09:14 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 27 June 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

Lady Mormont is awesome, but yeah, too much rallying too soon to a guy who just proved why he should not command, and still not legitimate.

I'm going to go with the "completely irrelevant" line about Jon's legitimacy. Like Greatjon Umber said in the first season "Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in the south?"

He's basically saying that the south and their rules can go fuck themselves and that the northerners will decide for themselves who is or is not their king. That Jon might not technically be a Stark, well, that's an entirely different matter.

Who said that bastards don't inherit was a southern rule? The dornish don't much care about it. The north have bastard names and bastards must be legitimized, and he is still raised as a bastard, and rejected by bannerman against Ramsey because he is a bastard.

[Terez]

Andorion, on 27 June 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

The music in this episode was mindblowing. Absolutely mindblowing.

Light of the Seven

You're welcome.

QuickTidal, on 27 June 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

That was amazing...and while mulling over all the awesome in the episode (Lady Mormont's shaming of the northern houses being my fave bit)...I just realized that the disguise Arya was in...was eyeballing Jaime the night before the Frey/pie scene. Oh boy Jaime, you're in trouble.

I noticed that too. Count me in; I'd ship those two. And it would be nifty if Tyrion ended up with Sansa, Jon with Dany, and Jaime with Arya. But I definitely wouldn't put money on all of those people being alive when this is done.

Abyss, on 27 June 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

Terez, on 27 June 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

I don't understand why time skips are such a hard concept for people to grasp. There's no teleporting. Not all time passes on screen.

I know this and you know this, but the show doesn't even pretend to try and explain it and it throws the otherwise consistent storytelling overlap utterly out of whack.

I dunno, I think they did a fair job of showing how much time was passing in the Dany/Daario scene.

QuickTidal, on 27 June 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 27 June 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

I don't think he is really upset at all. No one was really pushing for Sansa. He plays the long game and is seemingly trying to get Sansa resenting that Jon is sort of taking over her rightful place, and/or get her questioning Jon's decisions. LF doesn't care at all about the fight with the walkers, and that is all Jon does care about.

I see this as happening as well, and I'm HOPING that Sansa is her mothers daughter truly and doesn't fall for his game. That look across the room at Sansa as they were chanting 'King in the North' was one of "See? They want HIM as king, you're not even considered to lead the north." and having put the bug in her ear earlier in the ep about his plans...but I THINK that it will actually be his undoing... to have said to her "I want the iron throne and I want you at my side" was the wrong tact if he's trying to sell her on turning on Jon...as she is not going to be about turning on her family just to be someone's Queen....she's moved on from that childish way of thinking (The whole "I'm going to marry a prince and be a princess" stuff). I REALLY think that when someone ices LF, it's gonna be Sansa.

My impression of this scene was that Sansa's support of Jon is her way of undercutting Littlefinger. I don't see how Littlefinger would be able to influence Sansa to resent Jon. Her relationship with Jon is strengthening while her relationship with Littlefinger is more or less permanently soured. And Littlefinger isn't stupid; he has to know that ship has sailed. He'll be planning something completely different, but I think Sansa will be one step ahead of him. All she has to do is tell Sweetrobin who killed his mommy and Littlefinger will be done.

- Coltaine -, on 27 June 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

Terez, on 27 June 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

Coonass, on 27 June 2016 - 05:37 AM, said:

Looks like we ll be contining the Targ incest thing.

Yup, a Jon/Dany marriage was heavily foreshadowed in this ep. That's more than I expected, honestly. I can't wait for them to meet.

Coonass, on 27 June 2016 - 05:37 AM, said:

During the Darrio convo I kept seeing Dany singing the "Tonight I'm Gonna Fuck My Brother" song from Not Another Teen Movie.

Her nephew. She made her brother Hand of the King. And he's already married to her future sister-in-law, anyway. If Arya marries Jaime it will be a trifecta.

(More and more convinced that Tywin was impotent and all his children were Aerys's.)

Hopefully not more Targaryen incest. Would end bad sooner or later.

Well, Dany can't have children, so she'll need another heir. That's where Tyrion comes in. If she marries Jon it will be about making alliances, as she said. And romance.

- Coltaine -, on 27 June 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

And I also don't think that the Lannisters are Aerys children. Three other secret Targaryens? We have already one. Two in the books (even if he probably is a fake). Not everyone can be a fake Targaryen.

It's not endless, you know. The dragonriders are probably going to be Targaryens. I suspect the show cut Aegon because he isn't going to be one of them so he's irrelevant. We have Dany and Jon. Tyrion is most likely to be the third. It would end there, except the hints in the books about Tyrion's parentage could easily extend to Jaime and Cersei. With the twincest and Cersei going the Mad Queen route, that's not too far-fetched. And it would also make thematic sense for Tywin to be impotent. The Lannister theme for his children still works because their mother was a Lannister by birth.

In other words, incest is pretty common in Westeros. Just not sibling incest; that's reserved for the Targaryens mostly (and perhaps completely). Aunt-nephew is genetically halfway between first cousins (common) and siblings (not).

Nevyn, on 27 June 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

Jon and Dany both need to live long enough to get married. There is still a solid chance they won't even meet until season 8, and Jon is very likely to be too busy fighting walkers to worry about forging political alliances. Could be wrong, but I don't think this is anywhere as near a foregone conclusion as you would think.

I'd put money on them meeting next season. I have always thought it unlikely they'd live long enough to marry, but this episode changed my mind.

Nevyn, on 28 June 2016 - 01:34 AM, said:

Terez, on 28 June 2016 - 01:27 AM, said:

Interesting bit from Lena Headey's EW interview about the finale:

She apparently doesn't know the full prophecy. I'm hoping they filmed the whole thing and they're just saving it for later; since it was young Cersei, Lena Headey might not be aware. In any case, it's kind of weird that she doesn't even consider it will be Jaime. In the books, she's convinced it's Tyrion, but that's what convinces me it won't be.

They may have never filmed that bit of it anyway. It would take awkward exposition to explain what valonqar means. Can't do it in an flashback without another flashback, and Cersei never tells anyone.

I know they might not have filmed it; I'm just hoping they did. And they could always replace valonqar with "little brother", like they replaced "Only Cat" with "Only your sister."

[Maark Abbott]

Thoughts:

Exploding. No walk of atonement. Shame.

The whole Jon thing has become, quite frankly, a confusing mess of theories, which this episode apparently answered (but didn't at all). Still, it was good to see Sansa's face when he was proclaimed king. It FELL.

I'm cold about Ayya now (I can't call her Arya any more because her actress can't pronounce the fucking name). Indifferent to what happens with her.

Tommen - TEN SECONDS IS THE WINDOW. Bahahahahahaha.

Cersei as the Big Bad of S7? Well, ok. I sort of saw that coming.




Overall a lot of 'OH DAYUMN!' moments, looking forward to the next season, and hopefully they'll provide some tangible (and ACTUAL) answers to certain things which have popped up suddenly.

[Tapper]

Nevyn, on 27 June 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

Terez, on 27 June 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

Coonass, on 27 June 2016 - 05:37 AM, said:

Looks like we ll be contining the Targ incest thing.

Yup, a Jon/Dany marriage was heavily foreshadowed in this ep. That's more than I expected, honestly. I can't wait for them to meet.

Coonass, on 27 June 2016 - 05:37 AM, said:

During the Darrio convo I kept seeing Dany singing the "Tonight I'm Gonna Fuck My Brother" song from Not Another Teen Movie.

Her nephew. She made her brother Hand of the King. And he's already married to her future sister-in-law, anyway. If Arya marries Jaime it will be a trifecta.

(More and more convinced that Tywin was impotent and all his children were Aerys's.)

Lets pump the brakes here a bit.

Jon and Dany both need to live long enough to get married. There is still a solid chance they won't even meet until season 8, and Jon is very likely to be too busy fighting walkers to worry about forging political alliances. Could be wrong, but I don't think this is anywhere as near a foregone conclusion as you would think.

And if Jon's parentage comes out, it actually makes the politics around him murky. If R+L secretly wed, Jon is actually higher in line to the throne than Dany. Whether he is or not, his parentage could actually hurt his claim to the North (over Sansa and Bran's anyway).

As for all this Lannisters as secret Targs thing, still not buying it, especially not in the show.

I honestly don't expect any Targ (except maybe Tyrion, if he even is Targaryen) to live past the war with the white walkers. Series-incest between two protagonists might also not sit too well with the non-reading public. The Targaryen in-breeding has been more or less swept under the carpet. On top of that, both Jon and Daenerys are larger than life at this point. I think the two of them will somehow restore the seasons to normal and take magic out of the world, disappearing themselves. I have no idea what Bran's position will be -it might be he becomes a sort of force of nature or through the weirwood trees, or something?

I don't think Bran will be the one to settle Jon's ancestry, though. After all, the moment Bran appears in public and mentions Jon is not a Stark of the male line, Bran would be the next in line, not Sansa - yet Sansa is the one Stark with exposure to the courts, the laws and their justice and injustice: she is being groomed to rule well. And without public exposure, why would Jon walk away from the Stark title? Would Sansa ask him to? I don't think so: she trusts him not because he is her brother, but because at this point she trusts him like a brother regardless of whom his parents are.

Imho, it is much more likely for LF to reveal the connection as a sort of trump card. LF is still only a power behind the throne. Before he can sit the Iron Throne he needs legitimation, which is something he can't buy, but he can marry into it. And if Jon backs Sansa, then LF marrying Sansa is (almost) as good as making her the Stark in Winterfell. Likewise, it might secure him Edmure's backing.
The problem is that Jon will probably object to marry Sansa below her station and against her own will.
A suggestion of a Sansa/ Robin marriage might circumvent the first bit at the least.
Then, when Robin kicks the bucket, LF marrying Sansa will give him legit power over these houses and their bannermen. It fits with my pet theory that Sansa (whether married to Robin or not) will use her influence over the little lordling to dispose of Littlefinger. From there on, barring a Sansa-Sandor romance somehow happening (growing more and more unlikely imho),I think she and Tyrion will end up ruling Westeros after Jon and Dany fly off into the sunset/ disappear in a puff of smoke.

Arya is the wild card here. Like John, she still has a direwolf. Like Bran, she has access to supernatural stuff, and is presumed dead or missing. She doesn't seem destined to end up in the courts, and her own purpose seems to be vengeance. So when the last name is gone from her list, where will she go, what will she do?

[blackzoid]

It was fun, a lot of fun and I really enjoyed it....but I just cant help thinking about how absurd the magic teleporter has gotten.

Methinks a good Malazan-Westros crossover fanfic is waiting to be written explaining how Littlefinger and now Varys have found access to the Warrens and are able to traverse great distances so quickly. (Was it really necessary for Varys to be in that final shot? It makes more strategic sense for him to remain in Dorne and prepare the ground for Dany's arrival and to soak up more intelligence on whats happening in Westros)

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 28 June 2016 - 10:02 AM

[Werthead]

Terez, on 28 June 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 27 June 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

That was amazing...and while mulling over all the awesome in the episode (Lady Mormont's shaming of the northern houses being my fave bit)...I just realized that the disguise Arya was in...was eyeballing Jaime the night before the Frey/pie scene. Oh boy Jaime, you're in trouble.

I noticed that too. Count me in; I'd ship those two. And it would be nifty if Tyrion ended up with Sansa, Jon with Dany, and Jaime with Arya. But I definitely wouldn't put money on all of those people being alive when this is done.

I think QT meant that Arya was going to kill Jaime, not sleep with him. Eurrgh.

In GRRM's original plan for the series Arya was going to end up with Jon. Although the ages in the books make that improbable, it could be a goer on the TV show since they're all now old enough (although it'd make rewatching Season 1 a bit weird).

Quote

It's not endless, you know. The dragonriders are probably going to be Targaryens.

GRRM has repeatedly said that not all dragonriders are Targaryen or Valyrian and that the "three heads of the dragon" specifically do not need to all be Targaryens. The show, of course, does not need to follow that.

Quote

Methinks a good Malazan-Westros crossover fanfic is waiting to be written explaining how Littlefinger and now Varys have found access to the Warrens and are able to traverse great distances so quickly. (Was it really necessary for Varys to be in that final shot? It makes more strategic sense for him to remain in Dorne and prepare the ground for Dany's arrival and to soak up more intelligence on whats happening in Westros)

The final shot showed that a fleet of Martell and Tyrell ships (note: Dorne does not have a large fleet and is a not a sea power at all, but show) had joined Team Daenerys. I'm actually wondering if there was going to be more of a problem with Dany having enough ships and they were going to make more of the Martells and Tyrells sending more transports, but then cut it in favour of saying "We have enough ships, barely."

[Terez]

Werthead, on 28 June 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Quote

It's not endless, you know. The dragonriders are probably going to be Targaryens.

GRRM has repeatedly said that not all dragonriders are Targaryen or Valyrian and that the "three heads of the dragon" specifically do not need to all be Targaryens. The show, of course, does not need to follow that.

Yes, we all know that. But they're probably still going to be Targaryen.

[QuickTidal]

Maark Abbott, on 28 June 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

The whole Jon thing has become, quite frankly, a confusing mess of theories, which this episode apparently answered (but didn't at all). Still, it was good to see Sansa's face when he was proclaimed king. It FELL.

Actually Sansa has a slight smile or contentment on her face the whole time Jon is hailed king in the north starting with when Lady Mormont is hailing him as such...it's not until she looks over at LF at the end that her face falls.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 28 June 2016 - 10:34 AM