[Jade Raven]

Source wiki page: malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Template:Race

Can anyone spot any mistakes here or things I've forgotten?

I don't wont to get into all the various different cultures of humans here (Talian, Genabacken, Letherii, etc), just biological differences.

[worry]

T'rolbarahl?

Also, not sure the arrows between the Tiste are substantiated, rather than bullets.

[Egwene]

Hi Jade Raven, I thought the Tiste were all one race and diverged into the three rather than Andii being the origin of all, the way the infobox seems to read (not that I had noticed the arrows before ).

[Gorefest]

I would agree. The arrows make it look as if the Liosan came forth from the Andii, but we know from FoD that they were basically 'created' around the same time. Same with the Edur. They're not offspring, they're just differently aspected.

I'd hazard that the Jheck are Soultaken offspring of the Dogrunners, which would put them in with the Imass crowd.

Not sure whether the Deragoth would make a separate race. Always found that whole history a bit hazy. Are they simply the D'ivers form of Dissembalackis, in which case they should probably go into the Imass lot (was Dessimbelackis human?), or were the Hounds of Darkness indeed a 'race' in their own right who then joined forced with Dessimbelackis, so to speak?

Great Ravens is an interesting one. i guess leaving them off might raise questions, but elaborating on their origin would be a massive spoiler.

There's no Bokha'ral in the list. Guess they would be with the Nachts and the Mott Irregulars. Might need their own category, like Jaghut creations, or something like that.

There's the Locqui Wyval, who could be grouped with the Eleint.

[Jade Raven]

Er, yeah, It's not a standard evolution for sure, but Liosan were originally Andii weren't they? I guess not.

Tiste Andii (Bluerose • Shake^H) → Tiste Liosan → Tiste Edur (Rulhun'tal ven'or)

Tiste → [ Tiste Andii (Bluerose • Shake^H) • Tiste Liosan • Tiste Edur (Rulhun'tal ven'or) ]

So, go with the second option then?

Forge of Darkness said:

There had been changes to that House. Upon the blessing of Nimander, for his service to Mother Dark, all land holdings had been relinquished to Mother Dark, and all those Tiste born to the bloodline, and their attendant staff, warriors, mendicants and scholars, now served her, taking the name of Andii, Children of Night.

The First Son of Darkness, Lord Anomander, whom Kellaras served, had shown no reluctance in his praise for the Hust Legion, and was open in his admiration for the House of Hustain. His forces had been the first to arrive in relief of the south Borderswords following the Stand at the Mines, and Galar remembered seeing Lord Anomander crossing the bloodied ground to speak with Toras Redone, the seniormost warrior who had assumed command of the Borderswords and in the days following would be officially granted the title of commander. That march itself was a measure of respect: the Lord could have as easily summoned Toras; instead, it was he who reached out to clasp her forearm, astonishing all the Borderswords present.

On that day, in the minds of the warriors who would soon become soldiers of the Hust Legion, they became Andiian; they too became Sons and Daughters of Night.

None of them could have imagined the political divisiveness that would result from that fateful moment: the schism that would rupture the relationship between Urusander's Legion and that of the Hust.

Good catch on the T'rolbarahl, but, um, where to put it? Is it even an intelligent race or just an animal or a demon?

This post has been edited by Jade Raven: 29 July 2015 - 10:26 AM

[Gorefest]

Second option is better.

About the The T'rolbarahl. Not 100% sure if you can actually class them as a 'humanoid' race. Wasn't it just Dejim Nebrahl who showed intelligence, and that due to being a D'ivers (so probably a cross between a human and a T'rolbarahl, created by Dessimbellackis)? There's also the Jheck God, but again I think he was D'ivers. Otherwise you could also start including entities like the Dhenrabi and such?

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 29 July 2015 - 10:51 AM

[Jade Raven]

Lets say only things that have a conversation in the books is the measure of intelligence. So no dhenrabi.

D'ivers don't count, that's just shapeshifting.

Jaghut creations, damn this is complicated! I'll wait see what others say.

I put Jheck in other races because I don't know what they are, but they seem different enough to merit their own species.

This post has been edited by Jade Raven: 29 July 2015 - 11:07 AM

[D'rek]

Is there any actualy difference between Toblakai and Teblor other than the name?


You have Jhag listed twice. I would leave it just under Jaghut, as I think it is generically used to refer to any half-breed Jaghut, and the other half doesn't necessarily have to be Toblakai?

Agreed that Jheck are different enough to be their own entry.

I agree with T'rolbarahl being an entry - seven of them got together to perform a ritual to plant pieces of their souls in a woman to birth Dejim Nebrahl, I would assume that means they had at least some degree of sentience/intelligence beyond, say, a bhok'aral.


add to the list of demons - Khalibaral (seen in MT by Bugg and the Huntress)


If deisred, you could also sort the demons by their origin realm: Aptorians, Azalan and Artorallah are Shadow Realm demons; Kenryll'ah, Galayn, Korvalah are from Aral Gamelon and Sirinth. Khalibaral & Venath origins are not known.

Are Kenryll'ah / Kenyll'rah actually different species? Or just a social hierarchy between them? (Certainly the Kenryll'ah have better training and equipment so are better fighters, but are they actually substantially bigger/stronger too?)


Jhorligg might be worth including - they're at least smart enough to steal and wield weapons.

[James Hutton]

Aren't Jheck Imass hostages, according to FoD? Or am I misremembering things?

[Aptorian]

 James Hutton, on 29 July 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Aren't Jheck Imass hostages, according to FoD? Or am I misremembering things?

Might be. Or might be a progenitor species or some side branch to the dogrunners.

Other races:

The River/Shore/Shake people are seperate from the rest of the Tiste, no? So same ancestry but different branch, maybe?

Strictly speaking, are the Boll family not it's own species? Or just viewed as an echanted human bloodline? Yet they were made before humans existed?

Finally there are the unnamed Cat people that lived in the Panion Domin that may or may not have gone extinct because the Tenescowri ate them all.

This post has been edited by Apt: 29 July 2015 - 07:48 PM

[Puck]

 D, on 29 July 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

Are Kenryll'ah / Kenyll'rah actually different species? Or just a social hierarchy between them? (Certainly the Kenryll'ah have better training and equipment so are better fighters, but are they actually substantially bigger/stronger too?)

They certainly look different from the Kenyll'rah.

Quote

The demon had collected a double-bladed axe near the body of one of its kind and now carried it over a shoulder. For all its size, Lilac moved quietly, shortening its stride to stay alongside Trull. He noted that the pattern of its breathing was odd. After a deep breath it took another, shorter one, followed by a faintly whistling exhalation that did not seem to come from its broad, flattened nose.

vs. the Kenryll'ah:

Quote

Trull looked over at the Kenryll'ah demon that had spoken. It was taller than the Tiste Edur on their horses. A face of sharper features than those on Lilac, black as chiselled basalt, the upper and lower canines protruding and glinting silver. A fur-lined collar, a vest of bronze scales, salt-rimed and dark with patination. A heavy leather belt on which was slung a huge scabbarded tulwar. Leather leggings, grey and supple. The other demon, standing at its side, differed only in the choice of weapons, a massive matlock gripped in two gauntleted hands.
This second Kenryll'ah bared its teeth. […]

..whether that makes them different species or just two branches of the same, like the K'Chain Che'Malle and Nah'ruk.. I have a headache.

 Apt, on 29 July 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

 James Hutton, on 29 July 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Aren't Jheck Imass hostages, according to FoD? Or am I misremembering things?

Might be. Or might be a progenitor species or some side branch to the dogrunners.

The Jheck and Jhelarkan are branches of the same race, cannot remember for the moment which split off from which, but according to FoD the Jheck live in the south closer to the Dog Runners, while the Jhelarkan's territory is north of the abandoned Jaghut dwellings. Iirc, both are descended from the Dog Runners, aka Imass. According to FoD, anyway.

The hostages came from the Jhelarkan and eventually became the Hounds of Shadow.

 Apt, on 29 July 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

Other races:

The River/Shore/Shake people are seperate from the rest of the Tiste, no? So same ancestry but different branch, maybe?

I think they are. They probably started out as Tiste and remained the purest branch due to not associating with either of the factions of Dark, Light and Shadow. Imo, they are the descendants of either the Deniers or/and the Tiste from the Monasteries we see in FoD (hence 'related to the royal line' thing), which is where their shore-themed faith comes from, having originally worshipped the river god of Dorssan Ryl. However, after reaching Lether they intermingled with humans, who knows what else, and also whatever K'Chain leftovers were floating in the ocean, and became the Shake we meet. So, personally, I wouldn't group them with the Andii, and peg them down as a separate branch beside the Andii, Liosan and Edur. That their language has many left-overs from the Andii language is not surprising, considering all Tiste used to speak the same language, and their three languages still seem to be mutually intelligible.

And also, there are the Gandaru & Kindaru that are mentioned in TtH, and which Samar Dev calls 'not quite human', though what exactly that means...

This post has been edited by Puckstein: 29 July 2015 - 08:26 PM

[Abyss]

Greyfrog is his own race.

[Aptorian]

I thought it was a forum theory that Greyfrog is the same species as the demon that Bauchelain and Korbald Broach had guarding their estate in MOI? I think that's the Sirinth demon.

[worry]

Chillbais is a Cartoonian demon from the Clipart Warren.

[Jade Raven]

Damn this is some impressive knowledge.

Ok I've made some changes:

 2015-07-30_19-50-00_Template talkRace - Malazan Wiki - Mozilla Firefox.png (20.45K)
Number of downloads: 0

I'm tempted to change the bullet between Kenryll'ah and Kenryll'rah to a slash.

Keep the criticism coming!

Founding Races Forkrul Assail (Watered^H → Shriven^H) • K'Chain Che'Malle (K'Chain Nah'ruk) • Jaghut (Icebloods^H • Jhag^N) • Eres → Imass (T'lan Imass) → [ Humans • Moranth • Barghast ]
Thel Races Thel Akai (Thelomen Toblakai / Fenn / Tarthenal / Trell / Teblor)
Tiste Races Tiste → [ Tiste Andii (Bluerose) • Tiste Liosan • Tiste Edur (Rulhun'tal ven'or) • Shake^H ]
Demons From Kurald Emurlahn: Aptorian • Artorallah • Azalan From Aral Gamelon: Galayn • Kenryll'ah • Kenyll'rah • Korvalahrai Others: Khalibaral • Sirinth • Venath
Other Races Azathanai • Deragoth • Eleint (hybrids) • Great Ravens • Jheck • Stormriders • T'rolbarahl
( ) = Sub-set of parent race → = Evolved into ^H = Human hybrid with parent race ^N = Non-human hybrid

This post has been edited by Jade Raven: 30 July 2015 - 08:02 AM

[worry]

 Jade Raven, on 30 July 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

Keep the criticism coming!

You're ugly.

[Inane Babble]

 worry, on 30 July 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

 Jade Raven, on 30 July 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

Keep the criticism coming!

You're ugly.

Hey now, let's keep the criticism constructive at least, How about;

You're ugly, but at least you can put this bag over your head.




Why are d'ivers (and presumably soletaken) excluded as just shapeshifting but a category for (Hybrids) beside Elient included? Isn't that just soletaken in dragon form, or are there other elient hybrids I have forgotten about.

Perhaps there should be a category for both D'ivers and Soletaken which would then include the elient hybrids, or they should be put into the same section as "magical entities" alongside gods ascendants elder gods etc etc and kept away from races entirely.

It may have slipped by me but has this list included the jade worshippers of the crippled god? Surely they would count as a sentient race.

This post has been edited by Inane Babble: 30 July 2015 - 10:21 AM

[Jade Raven]

Silanah is an Eleint, but Rake is a soletaken Eleint. The hybrids thing is for that one girl in OST that looks like an Andii, but is actually something else - I forget what exactly. I made this table a while ago and I have not read the books since they were released.... Hey luckily I have wiki: malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Orchid

Jade statues, I don't think I want to go there...

[Inane Babble]

 Jade Raven, on 30 July 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Silanah is an Eleint, but Rake is a soletaken Eleint. The hybrids thing is for that one girl in OST that looks like an Andii, but is actually something else - I forget what exactly. I made this table a while ago and I have not read the books since they were released.... Hey luckily I have wiki: malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Orchid

Jade statues, I don't think I want to go there...

Rake is a soletaken who transforms into an elient, just like Kilava turns into a panther, or Messremb a bear. Why treat dragon shaped soletaken different from the others? Just because there are more of them that we know of? The ability to turn into a dragon or any other shape has no relevance on the original race of the character in question, they are still of that race.

As to Orchid, I haven't read ICE books so won't comment there.

As for the worshippers of the crippled god, it isn't the jade statues that are the worshippers, it is the people contained inside them that do the worshipping, the statues are just vehicles, there are descriptions of them in the books, or at least of what heboric perceives of them when he travels through the jade I think?

[Aptorian]

I'm curious about this soletaken/d'ivers question.

D'ivers I will agree are not a separate race, they all appear to be made.

However the soletaken are different, as far as I recall. While soletaken can be made, the children of soletaken will also be soletaken. Does this not indicate that they are a race? The racial trait is not the animal they shift into but rather the conscious ability to change.

Hmmm. But then again all the Jheck that are alive today are soletaken, right? Does this by definition mean that if the Jheck were a race onto themselves, they'd belong to a higher taxonomic group called Soletaken?

This discussion would be interesting to have a biologist chime in on.