[theocean]

Jade Raven, on 30 July 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Silanah is an Eleint, but Rake is a soletaken Eleint. The hybrids thing is for that one girl in OST that looks like an Andii, but is actually something else - I forget what exactly. I made this table a while ago and I have not read the books since they were released.... Hey luckily I have wiki: malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Orchid

Jade statues, I don't think I want to go there...

I thought she was just basically a watered version of the Andi.

[Gorefest]

Biologically speaking, 'race' is a bit of a tricky classifier. Whereas 'species' is fairly robustly defined as a group of individuals that can produce offspring with other specimens within the same species but not (barring a few exceptions) with other species, 'race' is more of a classification based on physiological traits. So purely based on that, you could indeed lob all Soletaken together because they share a very characteristic phenotype/trait, i.e. the ability to change shape. On the other hand, in the Malazan universe we have seen that what on first glance seem different 'species' can actually have offspring. So that means that for instance Thelomen Toblakai and Jaghut are actually within the same species tree.

This is also where the whole classification as listed above gets highly murky, because why separate the three Tiste races (who are all one species), but not all the different human races (Dal Honese, Falari, etc)? Biologically speaking it is a similar distinction.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 30 July 2015 - 01:11 PM

[Abyss]

Inane Babble, on 30 July 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

...
Perhaps there should be a category for both D'ivers and Soletaken which would then include the elient hybrids, or they should be put into the same section as "magical entities" alongside gods ascendants elder gods etc etc and kept away from races entirely.

Shapeshifting isn't a race. All of them are a baseline race that's been changed/ascended by exposure to other elements. Draconic soletaken are a specific subset, but still another race... Tiste, Jaghut, Imass... All other Soletaken
are either human or demon with a second form, but at root still of an original race. D'ivers are just a different flavor of soletaken.

Quote

It may have slipped by me but has this list included the jade worshippers of the crippled god? Surely they would count as a sentient race.

Nope. As far as any flashbacks and dreams show, they're human.

Apt, on 30 July 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

...
Hmmm. But then again all the Jheck that are alive today are soletaken, right? Does this by definition mean that if the Jheck were a race onto themselves, they'd belong to a higher taxonomic group called Soletaken?

Jheck are a human tribe who all happen to be soletaken (that we've seen anyways). If all of them are born shapeshifter, they might qualify as a separate race.



As for Orchid, she was human with Andii and soletaken Eleint blood heritage.

[Jade Raven]

Race has a specific meaning in fantasy fiction. It basically means intelligent species. It's a totally separate meaning to Earthly human races.

Orchid is half-Andii, half-Eleint as I understand it.

I'm not going to make every bonecaster a separate race, soletaken don't count. Except Jheck because there is a ton of them. Likewise if you can change your race after you are born then maybe it isn't a race at all.

I don't want this too get too technical, because if you ask Erikson to clarify he will probably say he doesn't know and that should tell you something.

[Puck]

Apt, on 30 July 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

Hmmm. But then again all the Jheck that are alive today are soletaken, right? Does this by definition mean that if the Jheck were a race onto themselves, they'd belong to a higher taxonomic group called Soletaken?

That's not really answering the question, but I see the Jheck as an offshoot of whatever race they evolved from (Dog-Runners, iirc) by learning to shapeshift, thus becoming their own group/race, but primarily because they are so homogenous, as in they all turn into the same kind of animal and both the shapeshifting and the kind of animal are hereditary. Which makes them a distinct group.

That said, there are two stories about the Jheck. The one from FoD, and the story that there's a connection to the human First Empire. Though they do not necessarily contradict each other. Imo, the Jheck are an offshoot of the Dog-Runners/Imass, but with a hereditary Soletaken ability. They seem to have participated in the Jaghut War on Death, and somehow ended up on Lether, where they attacked the colonies of the First Empire after the Soletaken/D'ivers ritual that spellt the end of the First Empire. On Seven Cities, the T'lan Imass put and end to that, but it seems like the colonies were affected as well. Now, what's not entirely clear is how the Jheck were involved. I used to read it as them being the descendants of colonists who became Soletaken and were driven into the ice wastes, BUT upon closer rereading of the what the Errant tells Brys in MT, I get the impression that they attacked the colonies but were successfully driven into the ice wasted, where they were thought to have died out. In which case they were already around before the ritual and for some reason followed the T'lan Imass example of attacking the First Empire, but on Lether. Maybe the wanted to prevent the T'lan Imass from showing up on Lether, so as to save their own skins, as the T'lan Imass wanted to prevent the Soletaken/D'ivers ritual from being successfull, and the Jheck were worshipping a D'ivers god. Anyway, that what I get from this passage in MT:

Quote

So. T’lan Imass, the Pack, and the coming of the Jheck. Soletaken worshippers of their ancient lord, and, from the potential resurrection of that ancient cult, a possible return of the T’lan Imass, to expunge the madness.

Maybe their D'ivers God had something to do with it. Maybe it led them against the colonies and then, upon the Jheck being driven back, was caught by the Azath Tower. It has to have ended up in there somehow.

Also, the whole story as told in MT:

Quote

[Turudal Brizad] 'Do you know how the First Empire collapsed, Brys Beddict? I don't mean the revised versions every child is taught by tutors. I mean the truth. Our ancestors unleashed their own annihilation. Through a ritual run wild, the civilization tore itself apart. Of course, in our version, those who came afterwards to clean up were transformed into the aggressors, the outside agency that wrought such destruction as to obliterate the First Empire. And here is another truth: our colonies here were not immune to the effects of that unfettered ritual. Although we succeded in driving away the threat, as far as we could, into the ice wastes. Where, we hoped, the bastards would die out. Alas, they didn't. And now, Brys Beddict, they're coming back.'
'Who? The Tiste Edur? We share nothing with them, Turudal -'
'Not the Tiste Edur, although much of their history – that of their path of sorcery in particular – is bound with succession of disasters that befell the First Empire. No, Finadd, I am speaking of their allies, the savages from the ice wastes, the Jheck.'

Problem is, MT is not too clear on whether the Jheck were there before the colonists, or are what became of the colonists:

Quote

B’nagga joined his voice to the chilling howls, his heart filled with savage joy. The Pack awaited them. Demons, wraiths, Tiste Edur and damned emperors were as nothing now. Momentary allies of convenience. What would rise here in Letheras was the ascension of the Jheck. An empire of Soletaken, with a god-emperor upon the throne. [...]

..this sounds like they could be what became of the colonists, trying to resurrect the First Empire, or rather their own Soletaken empire in the image of the First Empire. Of course, they could've been all about that even before, influenced by their god, or gotten the idea afterwards, or whatever. On the other hand again, there seems to have been a temple dedicated to the Pack, aka the Jheck God, in what is now Letheras:

Quote

The shape seemed to break apart, and the manservant saw motion, fanning out. At least six new, smaller forms, each low and long. The gleam of reptilian eyes fixed on him from all along the back wall.
‘So that is why you chose this temple,’ Bugg said. ‘Alas, your worshippers are long gone.’
‘You may think so.’ A half-dozen voices now, a whispered chorus. ‘But you are wrong.’

On the other other hand, the Jheck may still have come from outside the colonies, and were intending to prevent competition by the First Empire colonists, who also were cultists of the Pack and as such Soletaken/D'ivers wannabees. Or the colonists took to worshipping the Pack on Lether and built a temple. And THEN the Ritual happened.

And really, I'm just trying to reconcile the existence of the Jheck in FoD with the indo we get from MT. And it's not just a discrepancy between the main series and FoD, as the Jheck are mentioned as participants in the War on Death in tCG.




That said, what I originally intended to say was that I would cathegorise the Jheck as a race due to their homogenity in regards to what they shift into, while other Soletaken as a whole I would not, as everyone seems to have their own animal/shape AND a primary race they were born into. Even though shapeshifting as such seems to be hereditary, what sets the Jheck apart is all of them turning into the same animal.

Just my rather long two cents, though.

This post has been edited by Puckstein: 30 July 2015 - 02:01 PM

[Abyss]

Abyss, on 30 July 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

As for Orchid, she was human with Andii and soletaken Eleint blood heritage.

Jade Raven, on 30 July 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

Orchid is half-Andii, half-Eleint as I understand it.

Everyone describes her as human. She discovers her Andii heritage during the book, and right at the end Mommy D notes she has some Soletaken Elient in her too, but she wasn't 'half' anything i think... given that one of her relatives has to have been a draconic soletaken Andii, she can't be 'half'.

Jade Raven, on 30 July 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

Race has a specific meaning in fantasy fiction. It basically means intelligent species. It's a totally separate meaning to Earthly human races.

Yes, in the sense that way back when people were making Dungeons and Dragons characters there were the (eventually archetypical) human elf dwarf halfling/hobbit options, but even in fantasy lit the concept has mutated since then and can mean whatever you want it to.


At a basic level tho, i'd suggest 'shapeshifter' is an ability like 'mage', not a race. The Jheck are more or less an exception that proves the rule, assuming they are in fact all shapeshifters and it's not a ritual thing we just haven't seen. Even people with soletaken Eleint blood had to 'call upon their draconic blood' or something.

And in the end, it's your list, after all.

[Jade Raven]

Ok, I think I might be done now.

 2015-07-31_20-25-09_Template talkRace - Malazan Wiki - Mozilla Firefox.png (19.96K)
Number of downloads: 0

It's fairly complex, but should be understandable to most people.

[D'rek]

Don't forget that the Jheck who live in the ice wastes of Lether, as seen in MT, are not the only Jheck groups still around at the time of MBotF. There's another group in the mountains of Korel/Stratem - we see a few of them in Stonewielder, and in Blood Follows they're said to have conquered Stygg. IIRC, there's no mention of the Korel Jheck having inherent Soletaken ability, so the mass wolf-shifting is probably only a phenomenon of the Lether Jheck and due to the broken Beast Ritual from the HFE affecting them.

Like the Eres(/Tasse) and Barghast, the Jheck seem to be a people who once were more populous and spread across the whole world, but declined and now they live only in some regions. FoD just establishes that they've been around for a very long time, pretty much as long as the Imass.

[Puck]

D, on 31 July 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Don't forget that the Jheck who live in the ice wastes of Lether, as seen in MT, are not the only Jheck groups still around at the time of MBotF. There's another group in the mountains of Korel/Stratem - we see a few of them in Stonewielder, and in Blood Follows they're said to have conquered Stygg. IIRC, there's no mention of the Korel Jheck having inherent Soletaken ability, so the mass wolf-shifting is probably only a phenomenon of the Lether Jheck and due to the broken Beast Ritual from the HFE affecting them.

Like the Eres(/Tasse) and Barghast, the Jheck seem to be a people who once were more populous and spread across the whole world, but declined and now they live only in some regions. FoD just establishes that they've been around for a very long time, pretty much as long as the Imass.

Except FoD indicates them all to be shapeshifters:

Quote

A third Jheleck, silver-haired and scarred, said, ‘Our kin to the south were once united with us; in all ways they were identical – we were all Jheleck.’
‘I well recall your civil war,’ Haut said, nodding slowly. ‘And I have seen how it has made of you two people now. Varandas has written at length on the birth of the Jheck culture, and its myriad distinctions from your own.’

And at another point the Jheck are mentioned to be not as big as the Jheleck in their worlf/hound form. The Jheck split off from the Jheleck, so they should have retained their Soletaken abilities if they used to be 'identicalin all ways'. Also, I can't remember if other Jheck groups are explicitly mentioned to NOT be Soletaken, or if the issues just goes unmentioned. But if they aren't anymore, it seems more likely for them to have lost the ability over time.

[worry]

The Korel Jheck don't appear on screen as shapeshifters, I don't think, but their language is very wolfy: hunts, chase, pack, etc. It's hard to say. They might be very early humans, or missing link-type proto humans. They still consider the Imass their elders, and since the Imass were "domesticated" by Ay, perhaps that's why the Jheck are canine soletaken.

[D'rek]

Puckstein, on 31 July 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

D, on 31 July 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

Don't forget that the Jheck who live in the ice wastes of Lether, as seen in MT, are not the only Jheck groups still around at the time of MBotF. There's another group in the mountains of Korel/Stratem - we see a few of them in Stonewielder, and in Blood Follows they're said to have conquered Stygg. IIRC, there's no mention of the Korel Jheck having inherent Soletaken ability, so the mass wolf-shifting is probably only a phenomenon of the Lether Jheck and due to the broken Beast Ritual from the HFE affecting them.

Like the Eres(/Tasse) and Barghast, the Jheck seem to be a people who once were more populous and spread across the whole world, but declined and now they live only in some regions. FoD just establishes that they've been around for a very long time, pretty much as long as the Imass.

Except FoD indicates them all to be shapeshifters:

Quote

A third Jheleck, silver-haired and scarred, said, ‘Our kin to the south were once united with us; in all ways they were identical – we were all Jheleck.’
‘I well recall your civil war,’ Haut said, nodding slowly. ‘And I have seen how it has made of you two people now. Varandas has written at length on the birth of the Jheck culture, and its myriad distinctions from your own.’

And at another point the Jheck are mentioned to be not as big as the Jheleck in their worlf/hound form. The Jheck split off from the Jheleck, so they should have retained their Soletaken abilities if they used to be 'identicalin all ways'. Also, I can't remember if other Jheck groups are explicitly mentioned to NOT be Soletaken, or if the issues just goes unmentioned. But if they aren't anymore, it seems more likely for them to have lost the ability over time.

Ah, forgot about that, thanks.

I guess SE forgot he'd already explained the Jheck soletaken origin and made a new one for them, so either explanation works.

[Egwene]

ArchieVist is updating the Wiki with info from Assail and has created a page

The Silent People, also known as the Yag' Quarall, were a nomadic race of mixed human-Jaghut blood


I am trying to categorize the page. Should these be called Jhag as well? At the moment, the definition for Jhag on the Wiki is that they are half-blooded Jaghut living in the Jhag Odhan area of the Seven Cities continent.

[D'rek]

Egwene, on 11 August 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

ArchieVist is updating the Wiki with info from Assail and has created a page

The Silent People, also known as the Yag' Quarall, were a nomadic race of mixed human-Jaghut blood


I am trying to categorize the page. Should these be called Jhag as well? At the moment, the definition for Jhag on the Wiki is that they are half-blooded Jaghut living in the Jhag Odhan area of the Seven Cities continent.

IMO, Jhag should generically refer to any Jaghut half-breed (with the other half being anything, not just Toblakai). The ones in the Jhag Odhan seem to be the only big community/nation of Jhags though.

[D'iver koala bear]

The ay didn't domesticate the imass they came to an agreement to hunt together and then they stayed for the ritual
The deragoth domesticated the eres Al

And the azanthanai are shape shifters and can take any form they like
In blood and bone we find all the old races and creatures that adarta gave sanctuary to and shape shifters are among them aswell as d'iver
Also the worms of autumn I think their worm wrymms related to dragons

And I think orchid possibly might of been full elient
As the priestess said something like we've lost a son of darkness but we've found a daughter of tiam could of been a elient in the form of a tiste like curdle and tellorast was yes I think she was tiste and not andi or liosann just tiste which is why she was fair skinned and looked humanish just taller and more stolid I may of made that up though about the fair skin not sure would explain why know one thought she was andi and she was very very old so probly no human DNa what so ever in her

This post has been edited by D'iver koala bear: 19 August 2015 - 12:10 PM

[D'iver koala bear]

All the jheck and jhelleck and any other off shoot are all Soletaken they just differ in size which is why the hounds of shadow look so different from the hounds of light one is jheck the other is jhelleck they evolved differently cause of their environments but that war haut talks about must of been a long time ago maybe even the jheck live a long long time aswell as the tiste, jaghut and azanthanai

[D'iver koala bear]

And I think malazans should be classed as a separate race from humans because they are more than all the other race put together in terms of will and personality the only thing is the whole of wu will be malazans soon only 2 continents to take over now lether and assail and half the new pantheon was malazans yea I think they should be like the tiste were one race that split into 3 but this will be 1 race (humans) splits off into 2 races (malazans) and (humans) and then joins back into one when malazans have global domination

[NefaraisBredd]

Why Tiste (Blurose)? Why not Tiste (Moon's Spawn) or Tiste (Coral)? I dont understand the distinction there. Is it because they interbred most profoundly there? Or did they?

Also, unless i am blind or illiterate; i do not see the Azathanai listed as a founding race. Is it not implied that each/many of the Azathanai is the mother or father of a particular species? Are the Eres not the spawn of Olar Ethil?

This post has been edited by NefaraisBredd: 10 September 2015 - 12:40 AM

[BlackMoranthofDoom]

There's also the Dinal which is mentioned in Bonehunters, when Minala asks Cotillion for a provision of new demons to guard the throne of Shadow. It's a shame we never got to see one.

[Puck]

D, on 19 August 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

And I think malazans should be classed as a separate race from humans because they are more than all the other race put together in terms of will and personality the only thing is the whole of wu will be malazans soon only 2 continents to take over now lether and assail and half the new pantheon was malazans yea I think they should be like the tiste were one race that split into 3 but this will be 1 race (humans) splits off into 2 races (malazans) and (humans) and then joins back into one when malazans have global domination

This in nonsense. Humans are a race. Malazans are a nation, consisting of many, many peoples and tribes, all of which vary culturally, genetically (see skin colour), etc., but remain human, and the more lands the empire conquers, the more people get to call themselves Malazans. Even Barghast can call themselves that. I'm thinking of Trotts here.

NefaraisBredd, on 10 September 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

Why Tiste (Blurose)? Why not Tiste (Moon's Spawn) or Tiste (Coral)? I dont understand the distinction there. Is it because they interbred most profoundly there? Or did they?

That'd be my guess. Iirc, there are only about fourteen or so pure-blooded Andii left in Bluerose, the rest interbred with the locals, which is quite different from, for example, the Tiste Andii of Moon's Spawn/Coral.

NefaraisBredd, on 10 September 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

Also, unless i am blind or illiterate; i do not see the Azathanai listed as a founding race. Is it not implied that each/many of the Azathanai is the mother or father of a particular species? Are the Eres not the spawn of Olar Ethil?

I'm not sure how to classify the Azathanai. I mean, yeah, they are supposed to be the founders of several races, but are they actually part of those races? And as shapeshifters, do they have enough common features to qualify as a separate race rather than a bunch of powerful, really old individuals?

[Mentalist]

Not sure if this was brought up before, but what about "children of the Earth"? (see RotCg prologue, the Builder from TtH, and the golems inside Burn from MoI).

I realize that Thel consider themselves D'riss-aspected, but my understanding was that the above-mentioned are smth else.