[worry]

Some of that is among the least relatable content I've ever read. And I don't mean that negatively at all, just as an observation on different approaches. It's actually pretty interesting to hear about, and I'm even more curious to read about your modern music choices. To get another perspective that's so different, and curious to see if there's any overlap.

[Terez]

It would be a little more relatable if I could demonstrate it musically. I'm sure there's a lot of overlap; a lot of my favorites were very popular.

[Terez]

Two more examples from "classical" music. In the first, Bach's Passacaglia for organ (which is followed by a Fugue, in another video), the bassline is 8 bars which repeat over and over, all the way to the end of the piece, though sometimes that bassline shows up in a higher voice rather than the bass, and sometimes it's rhythmically tweaked a bit. Of course, the organ manuals provide the variation. The imitation continues in the fugue (fugues are also imitative by design), but IMO the fugue is the postlude-type get-the-people-the-hell-out-of-the-church piece (fast tempo, lots of grinding dissonances, especially toward the end); it's awesome, but the passacaglia is the prelude-type put-the-fear-of-god-into-people-for-church half of the piece. It's best listened to on full blast using the best sound system possible. Or in an actual church, sitting next to the bass pipes.



The last example is the one that you guys are most likely to have heard at least partially before: the Chaconne from Bach's D major violin partita. It's the harmonic structure mostly that's repeated, and the phrase is only 4 bars long (like Joey). Still, massive amounts of variation happening over that simple structure.



If you are the type of person who only finds lyrics "interesting" and not the music, then probably this stuff doesn't do anything for you.

[Terez]

On the high end of the theme-and-variations structure is the typical jazz head. Jazz charts start off with the chords and melody being introduced by all the instruments. Then the form repeats and people take turns improvising over those same chord progressions.

In this example, Wynton Kelly takes the first solo, then Coltrane comes back in with the head after which they go to the ending structure (typical jazz charts take a different path for the ending). It's one of my favorites: Naima, named for Coltrane's wife. Very, very basic jazz.




Another one of my favorites is as different from Naima as you can get, just about. The head is more complicated, and the soloing is more complicated. I still like Naima better because it's more emotionally compelling to me; Groovin High is just a fun chart to me.

[worry]

Oh I'm sure there's overlap songwise (there's bound to be[?!]) but the relatability has to do with approach specifically. Not the what so much as the why and how. Where we'd like the same thing for the same reasons (and if we'd even explain it the same way if we did), where we'd like the same thing for different reasons, and where we'd diverge entirely. For instance while I have a very basic layman's knowledge of some of the musical terminology you were using, it has never once occurred to me, when listening to a song I like, to care what notes I just heard, or what key the song is in, or what octave(s) the singer is ranging through. This is information that just doesn't cause my mental metal detector to beep, at all. The historical elements you briefed above, on the other hand, got it beeping plenty fast.

And I also wonder if you're confounded that someone is, genuinely, unreservedly interested in that Joey Bada$$ instrumental. I'd rate it "serviceable" personally, but it's not necessarily atypical of beats I do like a lot. I suppose my point then would be it's a mistake to think of the instrumentals in hip hop as secondary to the lyrics. I know that's not what you said, I just want to avoid drawing that dichotomy at all, because it's a false one imo.

[Terez]

I was responding specifically to what Studlock posted, which I quoted in the first of my recent posts. He said he doesn't understand the concept of inherent meaning in music (just lyrics).

I don't analyze music when I'm listening to it and it affects me the same way as it did before I learned how to read music (starting when I was about 7). The analysis is like musical grammar; it provides an explanation as to why music (the notes) affects certain people the way it does, and how it functions as a language. That language has been more or less universal in the Western world since ancient times.

[worry]

Ah, I see. I'm not quite sure what he means there, tbh.

[Terez]

Worry, since you like this history, you might find this interesting. The Ancient Greeks had their own system of music notation. Not much of it has survived, but because of the precise mathematical nature of their music we were able to decipher what we did find from written prose texts.

The oldest complete song known to man was written as an epitaph on a tombstone for a person called Seikilos. Only the melody was written down; the rest of what you hear in this video is extrapolation.



Today we would call this Mixolydian mode, which is very similar to the major mode (Ionian), so it's not exactly alien in modern music. (It's actually written in the Phrygian octave species; the labeling has changed since Greek times and the modern view of modes has been cemented by way of jazz.) The most similar mode to the minor mode (Aeolian) is Dorian, which is pretty widely used in modern pop music, though I can't claim to hear it often lately. Thriller is in Dorian mode.



Michael Jackson liked the Dorian mode, though he often writes in a sort of blues-scale melodic style which skips the 6th scale degree altogether. The 6th scale degree is the difference between Aeolian and Dorian; in the latter it's major rather than minor. Thriller actually avoids the 6th scale degree most of the time. Beginning of the chorus: Thril-ler, thril-ler night is 8-7, 7-6 5. More common than using the Dorian is to raise both the 6 and the 7 (melodic minor), or to raise the 7 but not the 6 (harmonic minor).

[Terez]

Lydian mode is only one pitch different from major mode, but it's a funky difference, and definitely feels a little off-kilter even to people who don't know the first thing about music. It's often used in cartoons for that reason.

Lydian mode #1:




Lydian mode #2:




Meet George JETson...the "JET" is the funky 4th scale degree of the Lydian mode.

[Studlock]

I never said music is uninteresting, nor do I think we can't measure it scientifically. I simply think that it can't convey information like language can (or in general sound--animals can communicate meaning but its not specific--danger is coming, food is here, I'm in heat and so on) and the way you speak about it touch elitist, and the way to (I enjoy classical music from time to time thank you very much). Honestly, I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm clearly not educated on this subject as you, but can you translate any of those songs into what they 'say'? And I'm not talking about the musical notes but the inherent meaning to those notes, like when I say 'Hello' it means something specific, it conveys information and starts a dialogue? If so I'd gladly bow down but I'm not seeing it as other than a highly technical way of saying "these songs are complex and thus interesting because they are complex and the reason they are complex is because they appeal and play around with historical tradition of Western music, which of course is complex" at the moment.

That being said I think, and reason I love music, is because to can convey emotional meaning, but that is obviously a personal subjective thing so where you hear the Joey beat and think "This boring and repetitive and probably a little bit stupid--let me writing about the greatness of the Ancient Greeks and how they scientifically started the most interesting music" I think "This is a throw-back track to early cipher hip-hop tracks in which the beat was low-key to better highlight the rapper lyrical abilities"--and both these things are true. I wish I could engage with you on your level of specialized knowledge but I can't so I'll have to bring you down to mine.

[Terez]

Studlock, on 20 July 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

I never said music is uninteresting, nor do I think we can't measure it scientifically. I simply think that it can't convey information like language can

That is not what you said at all, though.

Studlock, on 20 July 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

the way you speak about it touch elitist...

Good, because I am an elitist when it comes to music.

Studlock, on 20 July 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

...can you translate any of those songs into what they 'say'?

Music is the language of emotions, not the language of your shopping list. As I said many times, it's about tension and release, dissonance and consonance. Everyone with even a touch of musical ear agrees that major is lighthearted and minor is dark. There are reasons for that having to do with the science of dissonance and consonance, the aural and physical reactions they cause. The mode is just the beginning, though; every note has a role to play.

Studlock, on 20 July 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

That being said I think, and reason I love music, is because to can convey emotional meaning, but that is obviously a personal subjective thing so where you hear the Joey beat and think "This boring and repetitive and probably a little bit stupid--let me writing about the greatness of the Ancient Greeks and how they scientifically started the most interesting music" I think "This is a throw-back track to early cipher hip-hop tracks in which the beat was low-key to better highlight the rapper lyrical abilities"--and both these things are true. I wish I could engage with you on your level of specialized knowledge but I can't so I'll have to bring you down to mine.

Look, this conversation began because Worry implied that dislike of hip-hop shouldn't be separated from racism, and continued when you piled on with your crap about how I have no right to talk about hip-hop because I don't "engage" with it, which is BS—I don't "engage" with it because I don't like the musical principles that define it. In order to delegitimize my opinion about this genre you will, with your minuscule understanding of the science and language of music, pretend that these distinctions don't really exist, and hey, what can I do to convince you? Probably nothing. But don't act like I'm the one on a high horse here.

[Maark Abbott]

On the subject of High Horses, I posit that Amazing Horse is catchier than Kanye. Just sayin'.

As to the serious side of the debate: whilst hip-hop is lyrically dense, the backing track is often somewhat sparse (so as to allow space for the lyrics to really come across, or so I'd gather. I've not studied hip-hop that much). My personal preference is towards very busy, very chaotic music (see: SikTh, etc). I'm very much a 'more is more' person.

[Studlock]

I'm not pretending they don't exist--I'm asking why they matter in discerning what and what isn't interesting. Because that's your argument. Hip-hop, one of the most popular and diverse musical genres on the planet right now that has subcultures the world over is garbage because it doesn't align with the science and language of music (as seen by you--a quick check on a couple musicology databases and apparently people can't stop writing about it). That's not a subjective claim. That's an objective one (and not only elitist, as if that's something to take pride in, but dismissive which does have serious classism and racism baked into the claim--despite your intention or not--I was working around it, I didn't want to go there but you're basically saying the music that is mostly driven and popular among the poor black and brown people in not just America, but worldwide is across the board 'uninteresting' because they don't line up with the 'interesting' way to compose notes).

But fine. Hip-hop is uninteresting layman music in which only without a discernible musical ear enjoy, have fun in your Ivory Tower.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 20 July 2015 - 01:06 PM

[Terez]

Studlock, on 20 July 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

I'm not pretending they don't exist--I'm asking why they matter in discerning what and what isn't interesting.

I tried to explain it, but what's the use? You're asking me to justify my opinion about a musical genre, which is a ridiculous premise anyway. Every single argument you make with the purpose of delegitimizing my opinion is ridiculous. And the racism thing again? Dude, fuck off.

[Studlock]

I 'm done arguing music, as a layman, I'm clearly incapable in forming a legitimate opinion on it--but I will make a clarification: I'm not calling you racist, I'm saying your claim (Hip-hop is uninteresting) has racist and classist implications baked into it--again you're saying an entire art form largely innovated and enjoyed by poor POC worldwide is uninteresting when compared to more traditional western music forms--that's a racist and classict claim.

[Terez]

Studlock, on 20 July 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

I 'm done arguing music, as a layman, I'm clearly incapable in forming a legitimate opinion on it

I am not the one trying to delegitimize anyone's opinion about music.

Studlock, on 20 July 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

I'm saying your claim (Hip-hop is uninteresting) has racist and classist implications baked into it--again you're saying an entire art form largely innovated and enjoyed by poor POC worldwide is uninteresting when compared to more traditional western music forms--that's a racist and classict claim.

Except for the fact that jazz was enjoyed by poor POC worldwide, too. And I like that. The difference is 100% musical to me. Some people listen to music for reasons other than the absolute music behind it. I'm not one of those people. Seriously, if you were to ask a random sample of people why they like hip-hop, how many do you think would say it's the notes playing in the background?

Are you even paying attention or putting the slightest bit of thought into your posts?

[polishgenius]

So, based on QT mentioning her earlier, I've been listening to M.I.A's Matanga today. An excellent album, although going back to the context it was mentioned in, I don't think it's something that blows Kanye's best away or anything. I do like hearing hip-hop that takes a trip outside the mainstream though (one of the reasons I enjoyed Azealia Banks' Broke with Expensive Taste a lot, even though she herself is an incredibly irritating person).

[Studlock]

First that was me being 100% sincere and not sarcastic, I recognize I'm out of my depth and rather than annoy you further with my sophomoric attempts to rationalize my way out of it I'm giving up.

As to your second point, I'm not saying you or your intention is racism but rather your claim conform to racist beliefs--hence them being implications baked into the claim rather than originating from it (I'm not pulling this out of my ass--Hegemonic cultural beliefs work on us whether we like it or on--it's why its so effective). But I'm ending my portion this conversation as I'm sure other people have better, more nuanced things to say about hip-hop and music in general and I regret my zealotry.

[Andorion]

Musical taste is I think ultimately personal. And it should be.

I like mainly rock and parts of metal, but I have always enjoyed certain compositions of Beethoven, and I absolutely love Vivaldis violin concertos. Don't ask me why, I just do. It feels good to hear. I don't have Terez' knowledge of music though I wish I did.

Sometimes I like songs which tell a story and have a narrative. Sometimes I just want a soothing rythm in the background. I am typing to Bach right now. Sometimes when I walk fast I need heavy metal. Sometimes on my commute I want a soft rock or a pop piece. For some reason when I am sad, Coldplay is incredibly helpful. I don't know why. Music means different things to different people. Thats because I think we 'hear' it less and 'feel' it more. (Excepting those with technichal knowledge who might analyze it out of habit, but even that I suppose is not universal).

Thanks to Amphibs long post and some googling I know hip hop emerged out of a specific socio-economic context. What it is makes perfect sense in that context. The same goes for classicla music. Equally the same reasons make it clear that not everything is for everybody.

So ...umm can we not fight about music please? Its one of those things that make me happy.

[Terez]

Studlock, on 20 July 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

I'm not saying you or your intention is racism but rather your claim conform to racist beliefs--hence them being implications baked into the claim rather than originating from it (I'm not pulling this out of my ass

Yes, you are, because you're ignoring all sorts of important context.