[Terez]

Studlock, on 15 July 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

And finally from Joey Bada$ and neo-beep-bop track that is mainly inspired by 90s hip-hop:

When I listen to this track, this is what I hear:



This is so far from bebop that I think Coltrane probably rolls in his grave every time someone calls it that. I googled "beep bop" and apparently that's not a thing.

PS: The bass should go from G to C (I wrote G to E). I was paying more attention to the synth piano line and tried to do the bass from memory.

This post has been edited by Terez: 20 July 2015 - 06:44 AM

[Studlock]

Nah, I'm just wrong about calling it neo-bebop (also a typo thanks for the correction). I was just trying to find a 'stereotypical' hip-hop song and a lot of 'stereotypical' hip-hop was heavily influenced by Jazz but as you wrote it is a 'boring ass and orthodox' hip-hop track that served my purpose by highlighting the 'normal' lyric driven song. Another song could be used was Lupe Fiasco's 'Mural but its 8 minutes long of straight rapping so I didn't. Mostly I was just highlighting what I thought you thought was boring and repetitive (which sure given specific definitions--lyrically its a hell of a track which is why is has minimalistic sound) and contrast it three different sounds from popular artists, like I said again I doubt we'll come to agree on this because we have different definitions about whats a song suppose to do.

[amphibian]

Terez, on 15 July 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

Also...weird comment from phib earlier about curators. Since when have we ever needed curators to tell us what to like? Good art is rarely forgotten; the knowledge of it gets passed on in day-to-day life.

To discover and amplify the good art. It's hard getting noticed in today's world. There is SO MUCH music/art/creative output there that things can get drowned. The good art that rarely gets forgotten is the stuff that got amplified and noticed - which is the hard part.

Try D'Angelo's Devil's Pie:

Common's Come Close remix:

Janelle Monae's Electric Lady: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPFgBCUBMYk

The Roots' The Next Movement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm7Xt2Qsjcg

Pharcyde's Runnin': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwHuEDCM7xs

Pete Rock and CL Smooth's They Reminisce Over You (T.R.O.Y): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BONgL61snlM

I tried to marry the "interesting beat" to "non-braggadocio lyrics" and "genuinely important songs in the genre".

[Andorion]

A non-Western perspective might be interesting here.

Before I got introduced to Western music I knew very little about it. My introduction was purely through audio and the person who got me started gave me quite a diverse collection to listen to: Beatles, Metallica, Leonard Cohen, Simon and Garfunkel, 50 Cent, Snoop Dogg. Now when I listened to this stuff I was just hearing the songs. I had 0 idea about the artists themselves, including their ethnicity. This maybe hard to believe but till the age of 16 I had no exposure to Western music at all.

So after I started listening, I found myself liking Beatles, Metallica, and S&G. I didn't like Cohen, and I was sort of indifferent to the Hip Hop. I just couldn't feel any connection at all.

Later once I started getting more into music and when VH1 became available here I discovered that rock and Metal was predominantly white, while hiphop was black. This didn't really make any sense to me at that time. I listened to more Hiphop, mainly Eminem and he had some really good songs, but after some time the violence and profanity made me go off him. I also noticed that in the majority of hiphop videos, the rappers wore a lot of jewellery and the women were incredibly scantily clad. There was this rapper named Nelly whose every video had bikinis in it. It just seemed strange to me.

Since then I have gravitated more and more towards hard rock, heavy metal, classical, and melodic heavy metal. I still listen to the occasional hiphop song, but I couldnt ever really like the genre. I forget his name but the rapper who sang Wave your Flag for the South Africa world cup was really good. I loved Jay Zs Empire State of Mind with Alicia Keys. But for the most part I just can't like hiphop. I don't really know why.

[amphibian]

Hip-hop is somewhat amorphous - bending to the purposes of the artist.

But at its core, from the beginnings of the music's development, it was about the block party and people dancing. Big sound systems, emcees (MCs) getting people hyped up and repeated break beats for people to groove to and dance to. Communal fun, with easily recognizable songs that people could glom onto quickly. The production of this music was not that expensive - all you needed was a sound system, mic, turntable, and the vinyl LPs with the music on it. No instruments, didn't need a ton of musical theory mastery etc. And the people who most readily glommed onto this new style were brown/black people, some in Miami, some in New York and scattered throughout the East Coast. Then NYC hip-hop really assumed primacy because of the way the population/social dynamics were at the time (lots of brown/black people, lots of social discontent, the weakening of disco's grasp on audiences etc).

So the music developed from that core of finding famous and/or obscure soul/R&B tracks that had fantastic instrumental sections and MCs singing/rapping over that. James Brown and his band was the runaway most-sampled, so in tons and tons of early hip-hop songs, you'll hear James Brown samples (some in the modern day still do it as callbacks to that time).

So the bigger acts almost right at the start of hip-hop's ascendancy to real musical significance had good MCs who'd rap in rhymes about things. Rakim in particular took the rhyming from "just at the end of lines" to "internal rhymes" and layering things to throw in 5 percenter concepts, deeper social critique and more. Then people started adopting stage personas - the braggadocio turned waaaay up in most of them - when they rapped over the beats. Some of it was a joke. Some of it was fantasy enacted in real life. Some of it became what the MCs actually did - which was bad in some ways, but still sold. This is kinda similar to the development of rock'n'roll in the 60s and 70s, except it was scarier for the American and world mainstream because black people were doing it instead of white people.

Some of people's reactions to hip-hop come about because of the time and manner in which they were exposed to it. There are culture shifts lasting several years each that regularly happen - as in all creative endeavors - and mid-90s record labels and VH1 and MTV really, really went in big on gangsta rap and braggadocio hip-hop. They still do this to some degree, but the heyday has passed. One of the reasons why this happened is that white teenagers suddenly bought in and bought lots of those albums/songs. It hit the mainstream and the money poured in, the acts like Tupac, Biggie, Wu-Tang that were playing to packed bars of black people were now suddenly playing stadium shows to mostly white people. That became a whole complicated thing in which many artists started questioning who they were playing to, why they were creating music and to what degree they were comfortable selling out.

I picked up the above in bits and pieces, having come over to the US in the late '80s as a youngster and then hitting my teen years in the late '90s, listening to the radio, going to school/social dance parties, reading books on hip-hop history in college during the mid '00s and really starting to explore hip-hop in college and post college. I didn't come to this full fledged and every now and then, I really glom onto what is ostensibly a trash song, but I like it anyways. So many memories of getting blue balls in the backseat of my car with my gf at the time to Nelly's Hot in Herre which ruled the airwaves in 2002/2003.

There's always been artists who've mixed up the songs featuring the personas with songs that reached into social critique, personal musings and downright happier stuff. But they generally haven't made the headlines because they're generally more complex, harder to easily sum up/glom onto as a critic or an audience member. There have been and still are people I would consider to be musical geniuses in hip-hop, but they generally aren't the ones making headlines (except for Kanye).

This post has been edited by amphibian: 16 July 2015 - 03:22 AM

[Andorion]

So if I understood your post correctly the hiphop I heard initially and was exposed to the most was gangsta which puts a priority on violence and wealth?

I usually like music which has a story to tell. This is why I love Iron Maiden. Their songs have narratives. I think I might like this social critique hiphop. I assume following your upthread links wil help in that regard?

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 16 July 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

So if I understood your post correctly the hiphop I heard initially and was exposed to the most was gangsta which puts a priority on violence and wealth?

I usually like music which has a story to tell. This is why I love Iron Maiden. Their songs have narratives. I think I might like this social critique hiphop. I assume following your upthread links wil help in that regard?

The Roots, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Black Star, Kendrick Lamar, Common, Public Enemy, Deltron 3030, Erykah Badu (when she raps), Pharcyde, Janelle Monae, Lupe Fiasco and many more will feature a bunch of social critique and narratives (to varying degrees of pop and critical success). Some of it is oblique/coached in Hotep-ism (Badu) or 5 Percenter stuff (many, many hip-hop acts), some of it is really angry (N.W.A and the like) and some of it is mixed in with attempts at big pop singles.

The Roots just did an entire concept album telling the story in reverse of a drug hustler (going from his dying thoughts/meditations to the boy he was). I quite liked it, but it didn't sell like a major, major pop album does.

[EmperorMagus]

amphibian, on 16 July 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

Hip-hop is somewhat amorphous - bending to the purposes of the artist.

But at its core, from the beginnings of the music's development, it was about the block party and people dancing. Big sound systems, emcees (MCs) getting people hyped up and repeated break beats for people to groove to and dance to. Communal fun, with easily recognizable songs that people could glom onto quickly. The production of this music was not that expensive - all you needed was a sound system, mic, turntable, and the vinyl LPs with the music on it. No instruments, didn't need a ton of musical theory mastery etc. And the people who most readily glommed onto this new style were brown/black people, some in Miami, some in New York and scattered throughout the East Coast. Then NYC hip-hop really assumed primacy because of the way the population/social dynamics were at the time (lots of brown/black people, lots of social discontent, the weakening of disco's grasp on audiences etc).

So the music developed from that core of finding famous and/or obscure soul/R&B tracks that had fantastic instrumental sections and MCs singing/rapping over that. James Brown and his band was the runaway most-sampled, so in tons and tons of early hip-hop songs, you'll hear James Brown samples (some in the modern day still do it as callbacks to that time).

So the bigger acts almost right at the start of hip-hop's ascendancy to real musical significance had good MCs who'd rap in rhymes about things. Rakim in particular took the rhyming from "just at the end of lines" to "internal rhymes" and layering things to throw in 5 percenter concepts, deeper social critique and more. Then people started adopting stage personas - the braggadocio turned waaaay up in most of them - when they rapped over the beats. Some of it was a joke. Some of it was fantasy enacted in real life. Some of it became what the MCs actually did - which was bad in some ways, but still sold. This is kinda similar to the development of rock'n'roll in the 60s and 70s, except it was scarier for the American and world mainstream because black people were doing it instead of white people.

Some of people's reactions to hip-hop come about because of the time and manner in which they were exposed to it. There are culture shifts lasting several years each that regularly happen - as in all creative endeavors - and mid-90s record labels and VH1 and MTV really, really went in big on gangsta rap and braggadocio hip-hop. They still do this to some degree, but the heyday has passed. One of the reasons why this happened is that white teenagers suddenly bought in and bought lots of those albums/songs. It hit the mainstream and the money poured in, the acts like Tupac, Biggie, Wu-Tang that were playing to packed bars of black people were now suddenly playing stadium shows to mostly white people. That became a whole complicated thing in which many artists started questioning who they were playing to, why they were creating music and to what degree they were comfortable selling out.

I picked up the above in bits and pieces, having come over to the US in the late '80s as a youngster and then hitting my teen years in the late '90s, listening to the radio, going to school/social dance parties, reading books on hip-hop history in college during the mid '00s and really starting to explore hip-hop in college and post college. I didn't come to this full fledged and every now and then, I really glom onto what is ostensibly a trash song, but I like it anyways. So many memories of getting blue balls in the backseat of my car with my gf at the time to Nelly's Hot in Herre which ruled the airwaves in 2002/2003.

There's always been artists who've mixed up the songs featuring the personas with songs that reached into social critique, personal musings and downright happier stuff. But they generally haven't made the headlines because they're generally more complex, harder to easily sum up/glom onto as a critic or an audience member. There have been and still are people I would consider to be musical geniuses in hip-hop, but they generally aren't the ones making headlines (except for Kanye).

And here I am having no idea how to differentiate between Rap, R&B and Hip-hop talking shit about Kanye. For the record , the only song I've liked in any of these three genres was "Rapper's Delight" which i assume is a rap song. Other than that, I just cannot listen to more than 2 minutes of anything you've linked. Shame...

[amphibian]

It's ok. Switch over to A.R. Rahman's remix of Paper Planes:

[QuickTidal]

I think someone like M.I.A. exemplifies what I like in this genre of music (or sub genre if we need to subclassify her as not typical hip-hop). She pushes boundaries. Her lyrics are both interesting AND political. The actual music backdrop is not just repetetive base and snares. She CRAFTS an album. Compared to Kanye West she's friggin Mozart. There is hip hop out there based all around celebrity, and while it may be foot tapping or head bobbing stuff...it's never going to be great music beyond that, that would stand the test of time, IMHO.

The most recent M.I.A. album (from 2013) MATANGI is an exmaple of the kind of thing that is SO good it will weather the years well.

[Illuyankas]

[Studlock]

Here's my problem with that statement--the idea that Kanye doesn't 'craft' albums. He has at least two classic albums under his belt (the College Dropout and My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy) and is constantly pushing boundaries musically. Take for instance 'Black Skinhead' from Yeezus:




I don't think Kanye's a great lyricist to be honest but I really do think its absurd to say he doesn't push boundaries musically--I don't even like 'Black Skinhead' but I recognize that it isn't a stereotypical hip-hop track. I think its equally absurd to suggest his popularity is based around 'fame' rather than talent, or being musically gifted. As to your second point that's true for all music--or supposedly I have questions about 'great' music lasting longer in some kind of pseudo-meritocracy slug match--including classical, jazz, blues, or what have you.

[QuickTidal]

You're welcome to consider me absurd then Studlock. I just don't see it personally. Even in that track you posted there is literally next to nothing happening musically in the background, the lyrics are pretty bad ("300 bitches, with a trojan"...oh look Kanye, you lost all credibility). Beyond that, can we talk about the cribbing of Marylin Manson's Beautiful People riff in that track? It's pretty blatant.

But yeah, I mean from a mixing standpoint there isn't much in the way of layering going on here. Or in much of Kanye's music (that I've heard).

Compare to the following examples. They are all lyrically important, layered with more than just beats as far as musicality, they flow and ebb as a song should. Listen to what's going on here. When I listen to hip-hop, this is the type of thing I'm looking for.

New FORT MINOR track WELCOME


Older one: THE PHARCYDE - PASSIN' ME BY

[QuickTidal]

More:


KID CUDI Feat. MGMT - PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS (which is one of the most progressive songs about the excesses in the fame-filled world)



AGE OF L.U.N.A. - SIX FEET DEEP

[QuickTidal]

And a good Canadian rapper K-OS - CRABBUCKIT

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 16 July 2015 - 01:28 PM

[Studlock]

Again, I think we just have different view point in what a song should and shouldn't do--for me music, as itself, doesn't have any kind of inherent meaning, lyrically sure (which I agree Kanye's not the greatest), but just sound? No. So what is an interesting sound? Some thing that deviates furthest from the norm? Like Death Grips?




Or something that is more complex? Or layered like you say? Where is the value in that, musically? Other than the circular argument that's its interesting because its interesting? Something like this Flatbush Zombies (who I adore) track?




Or because its an impressive feat of sound engineering or performance? Or as Terez suggests non-repetitive and improvisational?

For me a song is interesting when is present a 'vision' in which evokes a emotional response--that Kanye track, which I don't even like, present a clear emotional vision. It's an angry song, it sounds like an angry song, that to me is interesting because it clearly presents that to the put it evokes a emotional response from me--I also think it is pushing boundaries in the genre of hip hop which is pulling more and more from electronic music.

I like every artist you presented, I've heard of them all before and is very familiar with k-os, Kid Cudi, and Fort Minor but there's nothing there that say to me that are inherently more interesting, musically, that much of Kanye West's output but my own internal emotional reaction to their songs. Then again I really don't think songs should or shouldn't do anything. Blues, for an instance, is often formulaic (and that's not to say there isn't experimentation or improv at live shows) but that doesn't make it more or less interesting that more experimental types of music like prog rock.

And if you want we can talk about the sampling of Kanye--personally I don't have a problem with it, it's apart of the larger remix and sampling culture of hip-hop--but I do know of the moralizing arguments against such things.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 16 July 2015 - 02:57 PM

[Studlock]

Further more we have songs like Lupe Fiasco's Glory which lyrically pretty much blows away most of what's posted here and yet is rather 'minimalist'--does that weaken it's interesting quality, despite that beat of the track matches perfectly with the lyrics and mood of the song?




These are honest questions. Lyrically Glory is just a better track than everything you posted--poetically its more complex--and yet musically its not pushing boundaries, it appealing to tradition to evoke a mood and feeling. Does that make it boring?

Or someone like Chance the Rapper whose vocalization is musically interesting by itself (which something we haven't talked the musicality of flow and and the rhythm of the lyrics). Here's Juice, another 'minimalist' track:




EDIT: I think if nothing else we've proven hip-hop isn't one thing or another.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 16 July 2015 - 02:29 PM

[Maark Abbott]

Terez, on 14 July 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

worry, on 14 July 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

Some racism, some ageism, some crankiness, some anti-hip-hopism (if you want to separate that from racism, which you probably shouldn't)...

Yes, you definitely should. I hate hip-hop as a genre. Rarely have I heard any with anything musically interesting going on, and the swagger of the lyrics is generally obnoxious.

Got to agree with Terez here. Maybe because it's a relatively minimalistic style and I need my music to be busy and chaotic. Not to say it's bad, but it's certainly not to my taste at all.

Going back to Kanye: His songs are dull, his voice is annoying and he's generally a cockcheese of the highest order.

[QuickTidal]

Apologies, I was speaking specifically of Kanye. Those other artists you posted are a different ball of wax, and I'm fine with lots of it.

Kanye is exactly what Maark says he is. Dull songs, annoying voice, and seemingly a jerk in the real life we see him presented in (whether that's actually real or an act is up for debate). The kind of individual who goes up onstage at an awards show and tell the audience that the person who won (Swift) isn't better than the person he likes better (Beyonce)...which was about as highschool level of an act as one could pull. Which is only precursor to Kanye doing a similar thing to Beck, and then declaring to Glastonbury that he's the "greatest rock star on the planet". I don't care that he's technically not a "rock" star...what I DO care about is a stupid statement made by a delusional individual with nothing to back that up. He tweets in Caps Lock. Multiple, multiple non-show concerts or 2-3hour late concerts, non-event concerts where he doesn't really sing much, but rants. Mouths off to reviewers who give him a B+ (EW article about his show) and demands an A. Basically everything that is wrong with celebrity-mixed-with-music careers.

And just to show I'm not playing favourites in any way, I feel that people like Liam Gallagher (Oasis), and Billy Corgan (Smashing Pumpkins) are totally on par with Kanye for believing they are the best ever and loudly shouting that...to disbelieving crowds who wonder what is going on in their heads to make them think that.

So we've got people like Dave Grohl busting his leg on stage and finishing the damned concert (AND keeping tour dates with a busted leg), or a Delain bassist having his nuts blasted from behind by a pyrotechnic explosion and finishing the show, or just the sheer energy and class that Janelle Monae brings to her stage shows, Tom Morello pouring everything he has into a guitar career, The Roots spending decades crafting important, progressive hip-hop tracks (to bring it back to the discussion at hand). These people LIVE their music. They don't use it to tell us how great they are...and then prove it by behaving like petulant, celebrity-hogging, constantly late children.

[LinearPhilosopher]

interesting replies, i'll have to give the songs a listen later on, . In general im not big on hip hop by virtue of it's vocal style. Not big on rapping. While there are some rappers i've enjoyed (some of eminem,) it's a rarity. I also think there's something to be said for the skill involved in mastering an instrument, as well as the improvisations you can do at live events. When I go to a concert or watch a live version on youtube, i don't want the boring studio version done live. I want improvisation, variation. Iron Maiden are a phenomenal example of this but they aren't the only ones

In regards to kanye, i despise him, mainly because he considers himself the next da vinci. I can't find it but there was a radio interview he did where he compared himself to that and was asking for someone to be the medicis and empower him. Meanwhile he lives a life of luxury. You're telling me you drive fancy cars, spend thousands on clothes for your kids and you say you can't empower yourself? Fuck off!I'll admit hes got some musical talent, but nowhere enough to justify that ego.