[EmperorMagus]

I'm really interested to hear what people think of this article on Guardian. I disagree with the gist of the article because I dislike Kanye West myself, but since I'm not familiar with his music, I can't comment on whether the Rock'n'Roll's "Old Guard" is attacking him because of Racism or because he is just bad.

[worry]

Some racism, some ageism, some crankiness, some anti-hip-hopism (if you want to separate that from racism, which you probably shouldn't), and some distaste for his occasional obnoxiousness and his connection to the Kardashians. But he's definitely a fantastic music producer, a pretty good lyricist (though he also has groaners, but that's a general pitfall of punchline rap, which he dabbles in), and a pretty good rapper.

[Terez]

worry, on 14 July 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

Some racism, some ageism, some crankiness, some anti-hip-hopism (if you want to separate that from racism, which you probably shouldn't)...

Yes, you definitely should. I hate hip-hop as a genre. Rarely have I heard any with anything musically interesting going on, and the swagger of the lyrics is generally obnoxious.

[Tsundoku]

EmperorMagus, on 14 July 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

I'm really interested to hear what people think of this article on Guardian. I disagree with the gist of the article because I dislike Kanye West myself, but since I'm not familiar with his music, I can't comment on whether the Rock'n'Roll's "Old Guard" is attacking him because of Racism or because he is just bad.

IMHO it's more because he can't back his words up with talent. He's just shit. And he's about as Rock 'n' Roll as the Singing Nun.

[worry]

Terez, on 14 July 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

worry, on 14 July 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

Some racism, some ageism, some crankiness, some anti-hip-hopism (if you want to separate that from racism, which you probably shouldn't)...

Yes, you definitely should. I hate hip-hop as a genre. Rarely have I heard any with anything musically interesting going on, and the swagger of the lyrics is generally obnoxious.

1) You aren't an old and/or out of touch white guy taking potshots. David Crosby: "Our house...is a very very very fine house." Okay great, put Kanye's lyrics in your sights after that. And Michael McDonald on the "he doesn't play instruments" tip. A complaint coincidentally aimed at young "urban" artists and never, say, Frank Sinatra. And among the younger dudes you have Liam Gallagher, who is like 1% as talented as his own brother, let alone KW. And the guy from Slipknot. Might as well ask the Insane Clown Posse what they think.
2) There are hundreds of thousands of rap albums that integrate pretty much every music genre on earth. If you haven't heard anything musically interesting, I won't say that's your "fault" cuz listen to what you want of course, but I'd imagine it is for lack of trying. Which is, again, fine. Anyway, this ain't a music thread so I won't belabor the point.

[Terez]

I will. I have purposefully tried listening to hip-hop radio stations in hopes of finding something musically interesting. I haven't. Give me one example. Better yet, five diverse ones. Sampling isn't musically interesting to me because it's minimalist. I'm not a fan of Phillip Glass either...

I love jazz (and not white jazz). I like a lot of R&B. It's absurdly reductionist to claim that people who don't like hip-hop are racist.

This post has been edited by Terez: 14 July 2015 - 07:48 AM

[worry]

I wasn't making a generalization about people who don't like hip hop (or Kanye)! I was talking about the rock n roll "old guard", particularly the people cited in the article, though it's been an issue I've been somewhat tuned in on generally. I don't mind posting some songs in the Music thread, though I'm not saying my taste is particularly representative or diverse, but I'll give it a shot.

[amphibian]

Terez, on 14 July 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

Yes, you definitely should. I hate hip-hop as a genre. Rarely have I heard any with anything musically interesting going on, and the swagger of the lyrics is generally obnoxious.

That's a weird thing to say about an entire genre of music and thousands upon thousands of creative people working within it. You really think there's "nothing musically interesting going on" and that it's all swagger?

Country generally isn't my thing, but I can certainly appreciate people like Emmylou Harris, Garth Brooks (some of his catalog) and so on.

There's not a ton of a difference between Kanye West and A.R. Rahman, but everybody ate up Rahman's remix of MIA's Paper Planes when Slumdog Millionaire came out. The sheer volume of crap Kanye gets is because he's black and bold about what he does, not really because of his musical flaws or annoying aspects (which he does have).

[Terez]

amphibian, on 14 July 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

Terez, on 14 July 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

I hate hip-hop as a genre. Rarely have I heard any with anything musically interesting going on, and the swagger of the lyrics is generally obnoxious.

That's a weird thing to say about an entire genre of music and thousands upon thousands of creative people working within it. You really think there's "nothing musically interesting going on" and that it's all swagger?

I didn't say it was "all swagger"; I use the word "generally" for a reason. I have come across some interesting lyrics but nothing musically interesting. And of course I haven't heard everything; neither has anyone here. But what is the incentive to keep trying to find something good when one has to slog through so much crap to find it?

amphibian, on 14 July 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

Country generally isn't my thing, but I can certainly appreciate people like Emmylou Harris, Garth Brooks (some of his catalog) and so on.

I hate country too. I have heard a few songs I would consider musically interesting, but not enough to redeem the genre of its general suckiness.

[QuickTidal]

The quotient of hip-hop I enjoy is a small window (Fort Minor, Ludacris, M.I.A., The Streets, and some other random tracks and artists) amongst the glut out there...but I do think that like most music genres there is a LOT, a lot of crap out there too. Wading through a genre to find the gems, especially a genre you don't usually listen to, is a bit of a silly pastime really. I've found the things I've found through other mediums (most of the random hip-hop tracks I end up liking come from it being played in movies or on TV shows). I'm not going to sit on iTunes and trawl through Hip-Hop music the way I might with Electronic stuff...but in that same vein I'm not going to trawl through the Rock section either these days (too much sad bastard indie rock). There is something to be said for being extremely selective about ones music. I'm choosy about the genres I'm not fully invested in (again, like Electronic or Symphonic Metal in which even the "bad" stuff is moderately appealing to me) and as a result I hve that narrow hiphop window (which is slightly larger than my Country Window, and is certainly larger than my "rock" window)

And Kanye West is an asshole who I would not listen to if you paid me...but not because of his musical caliber...rather because of his IRL attitude which is terrible.

[polishgenius]

Hip-hop's a great genre, although I can't say I know it too well. And Kanye's a great artist, although not consistently (and not a great rapper).

Terez: listened to Kendrick's last album yet? Might be up your street if you like jazz and lyrical complexity.

[amphibian]

The attitude of hip hop or country alone being massive amounts of mediocre music (some of which gets inexplicable popularity) is not a good one.

Every creative genre is like that. Books, movies, tv, poems, music, sculpture, paintings etc.

That's why we rely on curators and promoters as landmarks or guiding lights while wading through the oceans ourselves to find the good ones.

There's only so much time we can allot to this search for good stuff, as most of us are working stiffs with family and friends, but I can't abide someone consigning an entire genre of creative output to the trash heap on that basis. It makes no sense.

[worry]

Terez, on 14 July 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

But what is the incentive to keep trying to find something good when one has to slog through so much crap to find it?

I never thought I'd see this sentiment on a fantasy fiction message board!

[Terez]

@phib: It makes a lot of sense. Hip-hop is minimalist by design. Minimalist music does not interest me because I dislike the same musical motive being repeated over and over again unless there is some kind of melodic variation on top of it. Minimalism bores me. Add a bunch of crap about bitches and hoes on top of it and it annoys me. I am on library duty today; I will listen to everyone's suggestions later and maybe I will like some of it. We will see.

This post has been edited by Terez: 14 July 2015 - 06:40 PM

[Terez]

worry, on 14 July 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

Terez, on 14 July 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

But what is the incentive to keep trying to find something good when one has to slog through so much crap to find it?

I never thought I'd see this sentiment on a fantasy fiction message board!

I am not a genre reader. I read based on recommendations. I haven't read a lot of fantasy at all.

[Studlock]

Hip-hop is not minimalist--that's an absurd thing to say that belays your ignorance of the genre (other than the highly cliche 'bitches and hoes' quip because apparently all hip-hop's lyrical content is about 'bitches and hoes'). Hip-hop is fundamentally about remixing and sampling (and that's not to say the artist are incompetent instrumentalist--many of the producers are top notch instrumentalists) and is as complex as the music they are pulling from. It's weird to me that you say you like both Jazz and R&B and not hip-hop despite Jazz being on the main 'father' genres of hip-hop and R&B (or at least modern R&B as it is) is it's closest musical cousin.

For instance here's a track from Kendrick Lamar that takes heavily from funk (sorry for the non-Youtube and quality--couldn't find a decent video that wasn't distorted all to hell:

http://www.dailymoti...m/video/x2lnzr4


And here from P.O.S. we have a punk rock infused track:




And from Lupe Fiasco we have a track was has three different distinct musical parts:

See below

And finally from Joey Bada$ and neo-beep-bop track that is mainly inspired by 90s hip-hop:

See below

These are not obscure or unheard of artists--one of them is a midlevel artist and outside of that they are well known. The all have various levels of complex and distinct music which is pretty much the par the course for hip-hop. Unlike most other music forms I feel like hip-hop is less confined by a stereotypical 'sound' and is more lyric lead than anything else. If you're over a beat rhyming over a beat its hip-hop (though there is some disagreement over this--some claim that the 90s beep-bop is the 'true' hip-hop but I disagree). That's not to say minimalist music isn't around--the Joey Bada$ is minimalist to better highlight the artists lyrical abilities but this isn't a marker for the entire genre as a whole. Far from it. Basically Hip-hop can have any kind of musical styling and still be hip-hop. It's what makes it great and accessible to nearly anyone. Now I don't if you like it or not, that's your business, but you're are wrong about what is and what isn't hip-hop and what hip-hop sounds like, probably because of your non-engagement with the genre which is about basically means you shouldn't talk about as if you do engage with it. I know next to nothing about electronic music--I don't like for the most part--but you'll never see me saying shit like 'man, let me tell you something about something I know nothing about because I dislike and hence have a valid opinion on it'.

[Studlock]

And from Lupe Fiasco we have a track was has three different distinct musical parts:




And finally from Joey Bada$ and neo-bebop track that is mainly inspired by 90s hip-hop:

This post has been edited by Studlock: 15 July 2015 - 11:36 PM

[Terez]

How do you define minimalism? I listened to the first two videos; that's all I can manage tonight because I've been up more than 24 hours at this point. The first video was more interesting than most hip-hop I've heard but it still follows the repetitive form I'm accustomed to, which I don't find appealing at all. The second was more standard, and I'm not sure how it's supposed to demonstrate your point at all.

[Terez]

On second thought, I'm guessing the second video was supposed to be appealing because of this "infusion" of punk rock? As in, this is a genre I "engage" with so maybe I'll like it better? I'm not a genre person in general, hence it being kind of amazing that a genre has managed to turn me off so completely. I also hate most 20th century "classical" music, by the way. Not all, but the vast majority of it, despite the fact that "it" can't be squeezed into a single genre. I think music stopped truly progressing in academia when academia turned its back on jazz. At that point the highly trained musicians were basically writing and playing to entertain themselves, to hell with popular appeal. And it shows.

By the way, I have heard good local jazz-hiphop fusion type stuff. But it seems the very definition of "jazz" has changed these days (i.e. what other people, not my local musicians, call jazz), not that it's ever had a good definition beyond improv and parallelism (which is quite often just misspelled functional harmony with some past-octave levels that don't function as suspensions). There's an improv-like quality to rap but (with rare exceptions) without the notes. I like notes.

Also...weird comment from phib earlier about curators. Since when have we ever needed curators to tell us what to like? Good art is rarely forgotten; the knowledge of it gets passed on in day-to-day life.

Apologies for the disjointed posting; I think I already explained the reason. I imagine I'll fill in the gaps tomorrow.

[Studlock]

For me minimalism means minimalistic instruments without much fluctuation in the vocals and without devation from that sound through the entire song--folk music (which I also quiet like) for me is 'minimalistic' by design, see here:




For me the only song I put up that is that is Joey Bada$ but I see what you mean by minimalistic (I think) because when compared to the improv of Jazz I think basically everything is minimalistic (outside of, I don't know, prog rock?). Perhaps I'm wrong in that--I'm not a music academic--but if that's your bar I don't think we'll come to agree which is fine. To each their own.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 15 July 2015 - 11:17 PM