[Aptorian]

Just watched the first episode. The writing is sloppy in this episode. A lot of things just happening, characters doing things that seem illogical or just acting to further the plot.

It doesn't have the edge that the first episodes had but let's see where it goes.

[QuickTidal]

Apt, on 18 March 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

Just watched the first episode. The writing is sloppy in this episode. A lot of things just happening, characters doing things that seem illogical or just acting to further the plot.

It doesn't have the edge that the first episodes had but let's see where it goes.

You gotta give them a chance, they are literally setting up a whole new season. It's going to be very scattered up front. The narrative demands it with an arc-based TV show.

[Aptorian]

Just finished episode 4.

I was really underwhelmed by episode 1 and 2. Then I watched episode 3 and 4 and god damn was that great. Episode 3 and 4 make the first two episode good because they put them into perspective.

I didn't think they were going to pull it off but the Punisher and Daredevil play off each other very well in this series.

EDIT:

I love that they're using his staffs properly now but they keep forgetting or underplaying his powers. Numerous times they fail to take into account how sense of smell works, how his sense of hearing allows him to track heartbeats, movement, how his echo location paints a room in 360 degree awareness, etc. Daredevil isn't supposed to lose track of people or not "see it coming". Chalk it down to TV-writing I guess but it bothers me.

This post has been edited by Apt: 18 March 2016 - 01:58 PM

[polishgenius]

Apt, on 18 March 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

I love that they're using his staffs properly now but they keep forgetting or underplaying his powers. Numerous times they fail to take into account how sense of smell works, how his sense of hearing allows him to track heartbeats, movement, how his echo location paints a room in 360 degree awareness, etc. Daredevil isn't supposed to lose track of people or not "see it coming". Chalk it down to TV-writing I guess but it bothers me.

I haven't seen episode 4 yet but you have to keep in mind after the end of episode 1 his

Spoiler

hearing is fucked up - even when he's not actually deaf it's clearly on the fritz- which is how Punisher gets the drop on him for example.

Anyway, loved it so far. Didn't have any of your problems with the first two episodes, though they were fantastic.

[Aptorian]

7 episodes in I am really impressed with the choice of actors for the Punisher and Electra. Their performances are spot on.

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 18 March 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Apt, on 18 March 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

Just watched the first episode. The writing is sloppy in this episode. A lot of things just happening, characters doing things that seem illogical or just acting to further the plot.

It doesn't have the edge that the first episodes had but let's see where it goes.

You gotta give them a chance, they are literally setting up a whole new season. It's going to be very scattered up front. The narrative demands it with an arc-based TV show.

Writing is only sloppy with regards to Karen hinting at her past and with the DA coming in. Everything else in first three episodes is great writing wise.

The editing/setup is a little choppy in the DD takes out the thieves action scenes and with Foggy's talk to the bikers.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 19 March 2016 - 05:02 AM

[amphibian]

Just saw the stairway fight. It was brilliant.

I also know one of the bikers in that fight - the really big one that picks up DD for a bit. Dan Miragliotta. Interviewed him. Also interviewed the thug without the tattoos at the hospital. Jay Hieron, who I think was also on last season for one episode.

The MMA/BJJ world is so small, yo.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 19 March 2016 - 05:01 AM

[Binder of Demons]

amphibian, on 19 March 2016 - 05:01 AM, said:

Just saw the stairway fight. It was brilliant.

I also know one of the bikers in that fight - the really big one that picks up DD for a bit. Dan Miragliotta. Interviewed him. Also interviewed the thug without the tattoos at the hospital. Jay Hieron, who I think was also on last season for one episode.

The MMA/BJJ world is so small, yo.

That's funny, cos those are two names I actually recognise from the world of MMA, and wouldn't have thought of them being in TV much. Will have to go back and look at those scenes.

I just finished watching it and I think they did extremely well overall. A few minor quibbles, like the Matt/Foggy arguing going on and on and on and on.... As well as a couple of 'oh so convenient not telling the other person what's going on moments', so that there can be some kind of drama unfolding a matter of moments later.

But overall... great. As mentioned by others above, they really nailed it with the casting of Elektra and Punisher. I like how they've strengthened some of the links between the MARVEL (netflix) shows beyond oblique references, such as the lawyer from Jessica Jones showing up, however briefly. Since they'll all be operating in fairly close proximity, it frees them up to have more interaction long before there is a DEFENDERS series or film.

I think this season was a big step up from season one (which i really enjoyed) and comfortably better than Jessica Jones as well, in my opinion. I'm actually quite excited to see what they'll do with the LUKE CAGE and IRON FIST series' now.

[Morgoth]

I would haved like to see Jessica slap Elektra around in a cameo, but I guess you cant have everything

[Aptorian]

Morgoth, on 21 March 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

I would haved like to see Jessica slap Elektra around in a cameo, but I guess you cant have everything

Jessica Jones? Considering Jones apparently isn't invulnerable, I'd expect a match like that to end up with Jones getting two knives in her chest and that would be that. Jones never appeared to be much of a fighter besides brawling in bars.

I finished the season over the weekend. Really liked it. Better than season 1 by a longshot.

This season felt much more "superhero" than the first season. On the other hand though, it didn't have the same feeling of depth. Not the same amount of crime and politics. The whole "I am a lawyer" business seems to get short changed every season.

I wonder where they are going in season 3?

I could see the Kingpin returning for a very dark story but I'd prefer if they'd build up to it with more seasons in between.

Spoiler

From Murdock's meeting with the Kingpin it sounds like things are going to get very bad when Kingpin returns. Probably using the fall of the Daredevil storyline.

I imagine Electra will be back but I would prefer it if they waited a few seasons. I find it a bit silly that Stick didn't anticipate that a mystic cult of ninjas that can cheat death, would dig up Electra but oh well.

I wonder if they are going to make a Punisher spin-off. The Punisher was an extremely fun character through out this season. Both sympathetic and utterly horrifying. That Diner fight with the stabbing... oh boy.

[Binder of Demons]

Apt, on 21 March 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

I wonder if they are going to make a Punisher spin-off. The Punisher was an extremely fun character through out this season. Both sympathetic and utterly horrifying. That Diner fight with the stabbing... oh boy.

I've seen conflicting things about a PUNISHER tv series. On the one hand, in january you had rumours of a spinoff series being planned, long before DAREDEVIL came back. But almost immediately you had an executive saying that it was all fan speculation, and he reiterated that in feb.

I'm guessing that considering how DAREDEVIL season2 went (especially how well they did Frank Castle), THE PUNISHER will either eventually get his own series, or be a significant participant in several of the other netflix series like LUKE CAGE, and IRON FIST. Although, since LUKE CAGE is coming out this year, it might be too soon for that, so maybe season 2 of JESSICA JONES instead.

[Nevyn]

Apt, on 21 March 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

I wonder if they are going to make a Punisher spin-off. The Punisher was an extremely fun character through out this season. Both sympathetic and utterly horrifying. That Diner fight with the stabbing... oh boy.

It feels like everything they would have done in a season 1 of Punisher they already did here.

[Aptorian]

Considering that:

End of Season 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

Punisher smashes a picture and takes a CD labeled MICRO, I assume they have a kind of follow up in mind.

Micro or Microchip was/is? a character that worked with the Punisher as a hacker and tech guy. I assume Castle has plans for this unending war he's waging

Nevyn, on 21 March 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

It feels like everything they would have done in a season 1 of Punisher they already did here.

Which is awesome because it means we don't have to go through all that origin bullshit and can get straight into the murdering of bad guys.

Just give us a "Criminal of the Week" series where Castle stabs, pummels and burns his way through the American crime landscape. Oh and shoots people a lot of course.

This post has been edited by Apt: 21 March 2016 - 01:33 PM

[polishgenius]

He's going to be a hard character to use. If you put him in another show, there's a danger he'll overwhelm it - it almost happened here, but this show can carry it because of the way you can play the Punisher/DD compare and contrast relationship. Even so, as good as Elektra was in this season, it was at its best when it was about Frank and fizzled a bit when it wasn't. And on top of his glaring charisma, he's easily the most competent, action-wise, character we've seen in the Netflix-verse so far.

Going for a full series- now they know how well he's been recieved- would seem the logical step, but it'll need careful handling not to become repetitive.

[amphibian]

The Punisher is best in short doses. I don't think a full series focused only on him is the right move. He needs a contrasting character to play off of, to prevent the story from becoming a crappier version of Dredd/24.

Besides, as brutal as the violence got at times this season, I'm not sure Marvel/Disney is in for a full season of murder, especially with mass shootings happening so often in the US.

[Aptorian]

amphibian, on 21 March 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

The Punisher is best in short doses. I don't think a full series focused only on him is the right move. He needs a contrasting character to play off of, to prevent the story from becoming a crappier version of Dredd/24.

Besides, as brutal as the violence got at times this season, I'm not sure Marvel/Disney is in for a full season of murder, especially with mass shootings happening so often in the US.

The counter argument here, using TV-executive logic, is that an R rated movie about a stab happy mercenary just earned Fox a boat load of money in the cinema.

How well would another Marvel related shoot happy vigilante earn as a TV series?

[Tapper]

Apt, on 18 March 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

7 episodes in I am really impressed with the choice of actors for the Punisher and Electra. Their performances are spot on.

At episode 5 myself. I couldn't agree more. Sadly, their lines and performances are a lot better than the main actor's, to continue the line established in season 1, where Foggy and Kingpin outdid him by a mile.
I like the show so far, but I will confess I absolutely hated the scene with the power tool in ep. 4 (or 5? the one with the Irish gangster), which otherwise was a high point in the Punisher part of the arc.

[Nevyn]

Apt, on 21 March 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

The counter argument here, using TV-executive logic, is that an R rated movie about a stab happy mercenary just earned Fox a boat load of money in the cinema.

How well would another Marvel related shoot happy vigilante earn as a TV series?

Except that being shoot and kill happy kind of hurts your chances at having a recurring foil for your 'hero' to play off of.

I don't think the violence would kill it. I just don't think Punisher is well suited to his own series. Best as a counterpoint to other heroes.

Quote

Which is awesome because it means we don't have to go through all that origin bullshit and can get straight into the murdering of bad guys.

That's not really true though. Who are the other recurring characters on his show?

You would still have to go through BS origin, but have it feel almost retread, because you would need to introduce his 'world'. Characters need to interact with people.

[polishgenius]

Nevyn, on 21 March 2016 - 04:19 PM, said:

Except that being shoot and kill happy kind of hurts your chances at having a recurring foil for your 'hero' to play off of.

I don't think the violence would kill it. I just don't think Punisher is well suited to his own series. Best as a counterpoint to other heroes.

To an extent this is a fair argument (even here, we're gonna be wondering why Frank doesn't just kill Fisk at some stage), but his Punisher MAX (the original,less so the Jason Aaron one from what I know of it) series proves it's possible to do longer, solo stories with the character. He has to be kept fairly isolated from the others, but seeing as there's no reason for him to operate in just New York, that shouldn't be too hard.


Anyway, for me, he shouldn't be in the next Daredevil, because Elektra has to be and Bullseye should be and Fisk will probably be so it would get too crowded. He shouldn't be in Jessica Jones or probably Iron Fist because he doesn't really fit the shape of those characters and how the series go (certainly Jessica Jones). So barring a role in The Defenders, chances are the best shot to see him soon is some kind of solo project, imo.

[amphibian]

Apt, on 21 March 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

The counter argument here, using TV-executive logic, is that an R rated movie about a stab happy mercenary just earned Fox a boat load of money in the cinema.

How well would another Marvel related shoot happy vigilante earn as a TV series?

Deadpool has a few crucial differences:

1) Has always had women characters as partners, antagonists, and/or love interests, while Punisher essentially has none beyond the dead wife and child

2) Is more of a dark humor-themed hero than a murders gangsters-themed anti-hero; there are many Deadpool issues where nobody dies or gets hurt

3) Deadpool doesn't shoot up places and claim he's never killed an innocent

These things combine to make Punisher a pretty thin (fascist, gun-abusing, wish-fulfillment) character in isolation. It's possible a Garth Ennis type mini series could run, but that may be contingent upon the success of Preacher over on AMC. I think it's not the easy or best idea to do when there are other and better characters in the Marvel archives to run a full series on (She-Hulk, Ms Marvel/Kamala Khan, Taskmaster, Moon Knight, Silver Sable, Hawkeye/Hawkeye [Kate Bishop] etc.).

I say all this while thinking Bernthal is probably the second best live action Punisher we've seen (Ray Stevenson being the best so far). His monologue in the cemetery went way further towards developing empathy for the character than Dolph Lundgren or Thomas Jane were able to do in the movies.