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I've gotten tired of two words: "appalling" and "gelid". Otherwise I've enjoye it all. I particularly like the way SE hints at significance, rather than beat one over the head with it. I also hate reading it book by book-I don't have time to re read the entire series every couple of years, so I end up a bit adrift. A synopsis at the beginning would be nice, but I can''t really imagine it. I live in fear of SE having an unfortunate encounter with a bus. Then I'd never find out whats up with Pust's mule.
Criticism of Malazan Book of the Fallen
#442
Morgoth 
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Posted 29 March 2006 - 06:31 AM
oh no, not a synopsis. Please please please please... I always check whenever I start with a series whether the author spends the first ten, twenty, two hundred pages or the whole book letting his characters 'remember' what happend in the previous book(s). Goodkind is especially horrible there. Always wondered whether it's an american thing, but whatever the reason, me hatezz them...
Apart from that, welcome to the forum
Apart from that, welcome to the forum
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#443
Use Of Weapons
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Posted 29 March 2006 - 11:07 AM
Morgoth said:
oh no, not a synopsis. Please please please please... I always check whenever I start with a series whether the author spends the first ten, twenty, two hundred pages or the whole book letting his characters 'remember' what happend in the previous book(s).
That's not a synopsis, though. that's "filling in backstory while in the story." A synopsis is more like the "previously on Buffy/ER/The West Wing" -- skippable if you don't need reminding (at least, it's skippable in a novel).
My favourite way of doing this is Melanie Rawn's, who, in her Dragon Prince series, remind you of what has gone before by noting who is dead in the Dramatis Personae.
Rob Kerr
It is perfectly monstrous the way people go about nowadays saying things against one, behind one's back, that are absolutely and entirely true.
-- Oscar Wilde
-- Oscar Wilde
#444
Morgoth
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Posted 29 March 2006 - 11:12 AM
ah, I must have missunderstood then.. Nevertheless, I'd prefer not to have it. That's just me ofc, but I just don't like summaries or whatever in books. Dunno why but it anoys me. After a few pages I remember what happend before anyways
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#445
sarlinspellweaver
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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:48 PM
It's only a personal issue, but I sometimes find the sheer scale of the Warrens a little annoying. The idea that 'entire worlds' exist within some of the warrens etc. has developed a little too much, IMO, since the beginning. GotM was great because it didn't go too much into a pan-world setting, but now, as the characters have become increasingly powerful the expansion of something resembling a planar system has correspondingly developed. It's all a little too D&D for me! After all, if a character has that much trouble in the Malazan world, and has access to magic why doesn't he move to say Greyfrog's world?
Having made that criticism, I think it is much more reserved for MT and HoC - BH was far better in many respects for returning to a focus on the peoples of the world.
Just another personal problem, but I'm not too fond of the Tiste Andii or Liosan (Tiste Edur are slightly better), simply because they remind me a little too much of uber-races, and their alienness to the predominant cultures of the world makes them feel as if they've been tacked on. In contrast, the other races - Jaghut, Trell, Moranth etc. and even perhaps the Forkrul Assail - feel as if they belong. I realise that the Tiste are SUPPOSED to be foreign and alien, but even so, I'd rather hear more about those races that feel a little more native to the world.
Having made that criticism, I think it is much more reserved for MT and HoC - BH was far better in many respects for returning to a focus on the peoples of the world.
Just another personal problem, but I'm not too fond of the Tiste Andii or Liosan (Tiste Edur are slightly better), simply because they remind me a little too much of uber-races, and their alienness to the predominant cultures of the world makes them feel as if they've been tacked on. In contrast, the other races - Jaghut, Trell, Moranth etc. and even perhaps the Forkrul Assail - feel as if they belong. I realise that the Tiste are SUPPOSED to be foreign and alien, but even so, I'd rather hear more about those races that feel a little more native to the world.
#446 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 29 March 2006 - 03:34 PM
Because there's live and free demons around. And greyfrog is somehow a hungry mofo too. Wouldn't trust him and his kind while having a stroll through his garden. Erikson hasn't yet described a warren where I'd say I'd place my villa when I'm old and tired and fed up with this world.
#448 Guest_Thord_*
Posted 09 April 2006 - 05:47 AM
Blinky said:
I would think magic would hamper industrial revolution, but who knows.
What i sort of dislike is this whole thing about Tattersail and Parran's 'closeness'. They had, what, one week together?
What i sort of dislike is this whole thing about Tattersail and Parran's 'closeness'. They had, what, one week together?
Well... not sure if I agree witht that one. If I had a week with Kournikova.... huh-hummmh...
#449 Guest_Thord_*
Posted 09 April 2006 - 06:10 AM
Duiker said:
These are the exeptions that prove the rule.
Apologies: off topic comment follows.
The exception does not prove the rule (the non-existence of an exception does not entail that the rule does not exist). The original dictum was that "the exception tests the rule". If it is a good rule, the the exception is only apparent.
#450 Guest_uk_unbeliever_*
Posted 11 April 2006 - 09:44 PM
posted this in another thread but it will suit in this one also:
the one thing that has irked me with the new book (and with the series really when i think about a recent re-read) is that there isn't much consistency concerning who/what is the REALLY powerful entities in teh story... i know that this is partly because teh story is evolving, but i get the feeling when reading the series that in each book a new super tough character or entity comes on teh scene and all 'order' is lost. The 'trol' bohral'(sp?) seems pretty damn hard at teh start of the BH... killing all manner of nameless ones and having a history to match... then it gets beaten pretty easily! Now, Karsa pretty easily killed 2 deragoth (which in turn whipped the 'trol barhol'), but Karsa, previously (and yeh i know you could say he was a different person then, not as powerful) got captured and humiliated by a bunch of regular soldiers and a squad mage back in n.genabakis!!! Also, Karsa seems at the moment equal to Icarium and Mappo put together- if their one encounter is anything to go by. So, does that mean that those guys (was it the Asohk? cant remember) are equal to the more nasty creatures with huge reps? i know its not really possible to compare things like that but it make you think, when reading about characters, 'i wonder if they are really like this?', as there is a good chance that soon enough something will happen which will suggest that they aren't! In some circumstances this would be fine, allowing you to think that there are interesting 'unknowns' about teh characters and this would be cool, but with each new chapter in teh story there seems to be a complete re-ordering of the positions that each character holds... and not one that is done intentionally to create a more elaborate world.
Erikson seems to have a grand vision where the story is going (to a certain extent), and im sure by the end there wil be a much nicer 'fit' to it, but I can't see how this will happen unless the last books are used to tie up all the inconsistencies (again, i dont mean HUGE inconsistenceies... more like confusions).
This isnt meant to be a criticsm per se... but even if there is a greater 'fit' at the end i think that it will be more of a recognition that a cohesion is need than the finishing of a grand vision.
sorry if this makes no sense... its hard to express what you're thinking when critquing such a massive works. I'm not a basher either, i love the series in general and have no doubt that by the end teh Malazan book of the fallen will be one of the best Fantasy works of my generation... certainly one of the richest
the one thing that has irked me with the new book (and with the series really when i think about a recent re-read) is that there isn't much consistency concerning who/what is the REALLY powerful entities in teh story... i know that this is partly because teh story is evolving, but i get the feeling when reading the series that in each book a new super tough character or entity comes on teh scene and all 'order' is lost. The 'trol' bohral'(sp?) seems pretty damn hard at teh start of the BH... killing all manner of nameless ones and having a history to match... then it gets beaten pretty easily! Now, Karsa pretty easily killed 2 deragoth (which in turn whipped the 'trol barhol'), but Karsa, previously (and yeh i know you could say he was a different person then, not as powerful) got captured and humiliated by a bunch of regular soldiers and a squad mage back in n.genabakis!!! Also, Karsa seems at the moment equal to Icarium and Mappo put together- if their one encounter is anything to go by. So, does that mean that those guys (was it the Asohk? cant remember) are equal to the more nasty creatures with huge reps? i know its not really possible to compare things like that but it make you think, when reading about characters, 'i wonder if they are really like this?', as there is a good chance that soon enough something will happen which will suggest that they aren't! In some circumstances this would be fine, allowing you to think that there are interesting 'unknowns' about teh characters and this would be cool, but with each new chapter in teh story there seems to be a complete re-ordering of the positions that each character holds... and not one that is done intentionally to create a more elaborate world.
Erikson seems to have a grand vision where the story is going (to a certain extent), and im sure by the end there wil be a much nicer 'fit' to it, but I can't see how this will happen unless the last books are used to tie up all the inconsistencies (again, i dont mean HUGE inconsistenceies... more like confusions).
This isnt meant to be a criticsm per se... but even if there is a greater 'fit' at the end i think that it will be more of a recognition that a cohesion is need than the finishing of a grand vision.
sorry if this makes no sense... its hard to express what you're thinking when critquing such a massive works. I'm not a basher either, i love the series in general and have no doubt that by the end teh Malazan book of the fallen will be one of the best Fantasy works of my generation... certainly one of the richest
#451
tiam
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Posted 16 April 2006 - 06:02 PM
Not to defend erikson at all as i agree that the balance of power shifts quite alot. However this is actually exlained (albeit breifly) in BH. the conversation with hedge talks about peaks of mountains and suh explains why theres so many ascendents.
#452
Brahm_K
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Posted 23 April 2006 - 02:43 PM
A new criticism upon reading the Bonehunters (though it happens in the other books): Erikson's tendency to have a character be on the verge of death who is then suddenly saved somehow thanks to a humongous deus ex machina. It completely lessens the impact of the scene. And he really needs to stop using the word "convergence." Especially when in every book, the convergence that's coming is going to be DA BIGGEST ONE YET!
#453 Guest_Clawmaster_*
Posted 23 April 2006 - 10:28 PM
In my opinion this novel was the weakest one in the series thus far. It continues a downward slope in quality that I've noticed since MoI.
The interesting characters are killed off.
The interesting characters are killed off.
#454
Folken
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Posted 23 April 2006 - 10:39 PM
So that makes the quality of the story less interesting how?
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#455 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 23 April 2006 - 10:51 PM
I consider this one of his strong points.
#457 Guest_Uncledoj_*
Posted 25 April 2006 - 05:01 PM
Erikson tends to go into overkill mode when he tries to write witty dialogue between characters. In Midnight Tides, for example, every interaction Tehol has with other characters is written in a repetitive, sardonic style that gets really tiring.
The sophomoric and obvious social criticism in Midnight Tides was also really grating.
The sophomoric and obvious social criticism in Midnight Tides was also really grating.
#458 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 25 April 2006 - 05:07 PM
Think if one would meet Tehol IRL, it would be a very tiresome interaction. Still I like him.
And the question wether fantasy should be used for social critisism, well....there's some threads about that one.
My only problem are the inconsistencies, but I ignore them. I correct them in my head.
And the question wether fantasy should be used for social critisism, well....there's some threads about that one.
My only problem are the inconsistencies, but I ignore them. I correct them in my head.
#459
tiam
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Posted 25 April 2006 - 07:18 PM
Clawmaster said:
In my opinion this novel was the weakest one in the series thus far. It continues a downward slope in quality that I've noticed since MoI.
The interesting characters are killed off.
The interesting characters are killed off.
From that you mean HOC was weak then MT was weaker and Bh was weaker still? i used to agree with this assessment however in comparison to other fantasy books they are all still still great books. i also count BH as the weakest book in the series but i still liked it. i used to dread rereads of MT but after he 2nd reread i was utterly absorbed and although it massively deviates from the plot line of the series it still holds some relevance and therefore adds background and context to the other books. HOC was a slight disappointment due to there being no battle but stilla very good book i would happily read again.
As for attack on current living characters claimigm all the ineteresting ones have been killed off. name them. in fact we should make a casualties list on who is important and greivable for. peronally i will not miss the myhbe
(shes dead IMO. well shes not but sum1 should kill her.)i do agree that hardly neone ever dies such as kalam at the end of Bh. Kalam is my favorite character but as there is no main character the series could quite hapily go on without him. I was happy to see him die in such a fashion in that him and apsalar likely decimated the claw permanently.
I also agree that the 'convergence factor' has ost its novelty. it did after MOI. Hoc was a complete let down and Mt was just a graphic display of sorcery. Bh was quite a good ending but it did seem like a bigger better version of Dg
#460
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 25 April 2006 - 07:48 PM
Characters who have really died (not going to be in the series any more).
Itkovian
The Ceda (I'll never forgive Trull, ever. Never forget)
the other Letherii (King Diskanar, Nifadas, Moroch Nevath, Gerun Eberict, etc)
Whiskeyjack (supposedly ascended, but it seems he aint coming back)
Hairlock
Brukhalian
Karnadas
Coltaine (reincarnated)
all the other dead on the Chain of Dogs (Lull, Bult, List)
Andarist (he really gets to me, it's hard to say why)
Binadas
Monok Ochem (WHY?)
Heboric???
Pearl
Tene Baralta
Gamet
Apt
Truth (?)
Dujek
A'karonys
Kulp!!! (if any character gets to come back, it should be Kulp)
Felisin
T'amber?
Brys?
Hull (bah)
Poleil
Doan & Ganrod
Serrat
Rellock
Pormqual (ha)
Kamist Reloe
there have to be more (see? Erikson does kill his characters)
Itkovian
The Ceda (I'll never forgive Trull, ever. Never forget)
the other Letherii (King Diskanar, Nifadas, Moroch Nevath, Gerun Eberict, etc)
Whiskeyjack (supposedly ascended, but it seems he aint coming back)
Hairlock
Brukhalian
Karnadas
Coltaine (reincarnated)
all the other dead on the Chain of Dogs (Lull, Bult, List)
Andarist (he really gets to me, it's hard to say why)
Binadas
Monok Ochem (WHY?)
Heboric???
Pearl
Tene Baralta
Gamet
Apt
Truth (?)
Dujek
A'karonys
Kulp!!! (if any character gets to come back, it should be Kulp)
Felisin
T'amber?
Brys?
Hull (bah)
Poleil
Doan & Ganrod
Serrat
Rellock
Pormqual (ha)
Kamist Reloe
there have to be more (see? Erikson does kill his characters)
