[Imperial Historian]

minor DoD spoiler from SE, may or may not be true

Spoiler

Steve said that the bonehunters are down to there last few muntions in DoD, I recall he said something along the lines of they only have 7 cussers left, so those of you wondering whether they will ever run out... they do

[Aptorian]

Imperial Historian;350938 said:

minor DoD spoiler from SE, may or may not be true

Spoiler

Steve said that the bonehunters are down to there last few muntions in DoD, I recall he said something along the lines of they only have 7 cussers left, so those of you wondering whether they will ever run out... they do

Spoiler

I guess that means Hedge lost his ascended ghost abilities then

[Knight of Bowen]

hmm ok then.. so am i on my own then? at the same time tho at every scene i recall, its one of my fav characters almost dying and munitions saved the day... and i hate seeing favs die.. but you cant have it all ay.

[Illuyankas]

@IH:

Spoiler

The figure I heard was 14. That's still not very many at all, though.

[Daemon_Monkey]

Personally my biggest problem with SE is that all the characters are very clearly his characters. There's a certain, distinctive flow and pattern that seems the same across the entire cast.

Of course most writers have this problem but SE's massive cast accentuates it.

I'm not saying that there's no small idiosyncrasies but these just serve to hide the fact.

[HalfTere]

I could not stand most of Deadhouse Gates. By the time we got to the fall, I'd just stopped caring. It went on and on during the trek through the dessert, and the Path of Hands was underwhelming too. Memories of Ice was mediocre, but the series has improved by leaps with each book since then. I still kind of groan at the soldier parts, but they're getting more bearable.

Almost everyone whose anyone can fight well with a sword. There aren't many great commanders who are mediocre swordfighters. Only a few characters like Krupp really rely on wits alone.

Going on for a couple pages about some philosophical pondrance or other is fine, but doing it on the same subject 10+ times is not. This is what dragged Deadhouse Gates down.

Oh, I also loathe the way that almost every character finds him or herself at some point lost in ennui, and whining about how horrible the world and humanity is. I mean, seriously, this happens to almost EVERYONE! It's ridiculous. Apsalar, Cutter, Whiskeyjack, Silverfox, the Mehbe and Tool are particularly good examples of this bad trait in the Malazan series.

I appreciate Erikson's effort, but MBotF fails as philosophy, most of the time, and reads much better as adventure. Still, He's been getting better with it in more recent books. By the time Crippled God comes out, he might be able to present thoughts on morality and human nature in an engaging way.

[Skywalker]

HalfTere;356506 said:

I could not stand most of Deadhouse Gates. By the time we got to the fall, I'd just stopped caring. It went on and on during the trek through the dessert, and the Path of Hands was underwhelming too. Memories of Ice was mediocre, but the series has improved by leaps with each book since then. I still kind of groan at the soldier parts, but they're getting more bearable.

Almost everyone whose anyone can fight well with a sword. There aren't many great commanders who are mediocre swordfighters. Only a few characters like Krupp really rely on wits alone.

Going on for a couple pages about some philosophical pondrance or other is fine, but doing it on the same subject 10+ times is not. This is what dragged Deadhouse Gates down.

Oh, I also loathe the way that almost every character finds him or herself at some point lost in ennui, and whining about how horrible the world and humanity is. I mean, seriously, this happens to almost EVERYONE! It's ridiculous. Apsalar, Cutter, Whiskeyjack, Silverfox, the Mehbe and Tool are particularly good examples of this bad trait in the Malazan series.

I appreciate Erikson's effort, but MBotF fails as philosophy, most of the time, and reads much better as adventure. Still, He's been getting better with it in more recent books. By the time Crippled God comes out, he might be able to present thoughts on morality and human nature in an engaging way.

Wow... from everything you just said, I'm left with one question only...

Why are you still reading MBoTF? A simple adventure it certainly is not... and SFF is full of less brooding/ philosophizing work that reads faster as an adventure tale.

If you hated DG and MoI (and I think those are the best of the series so far) what made you stick with it and read through to the seventh book (if you are that far along)?

[HalfTere]

Skywalker;356806 said:

Wow... from everything you just said, I'm left with one question only...

Why are you still reading MBoTF? A simple adventure it certainly is not... and SFF is full of less brooding/ philosophizing work that reads faster as an adventure tale.

If you hated DG and MoI (and I think those are the best of the series so far) what made you stick with it and read through to the seventh book (if you are that far along)?

Skywalker, this is a topic to criticize. Therefore, I talked about my gripes rather than my likes, of which there are many.

I'll attempt to answer your question: Karsa Orlong - one of the most badass characters in all of fiction. The rest of House of Chains was decent too. Also, Midnight Tides was excellent. The Sengar brothers and Beddict brothers all excellent characters. I just finished Y'Ghatan scene in Bonehunters, which was grueling but by far the best large battle scene I've read from Erikson.

And just because a work attempts philosophy, rather than allowing itself to be shallow, doesn't mean that doing so always adds to it. DG and MoI had good parts, but the Chain of Dogs story in DG was poorly paced and repetitive while MoI definitely did not need to repeat, a dozen times, how miserable and tormented the Mehbe was with page after page of description of her tortures that got us nowhere.

When he's more subtle, he succeeds decently - for instance, the idea that while the world remains the same, everyone has their expiration date (expressed, for instance, by the inevitable and usually quite gruesome failure of any ancient power released from age-old bondage) is pretty interesting.

Certainly I like the series, but why would I offer uncritical, fawning admiration? Even my favorite works don't merit that.

Edit: Also, I should add that just because a character experiences some degree of ennui doesn't make them boring or bad - it's when we get page after page of mind-numbing internal whining monologue that I start to hate them. It's rather appropriate that the T'lan Imass or the Tiste can't quite bare their immortality.

[Skywalker]

HalfTere;356974 said:

Skywalker, this is a topic to criticize. Therefore, I talked about my gripes rather than my likes, of which there are many.

Hmm... fair enough. When I first read your post it sounded so negative I was surprised/ wanted to understand how you could've read on if you were underwhelmed by DG...

HalfTere;356974 said:

Certainly I like the series, but why would I offer uncritical, fawning admiration? Even my favorite works don't merit that.

I'm not saying you should fawn... as a matter of fact, you've come to the right thread to raise the points you have - well DUH! the title says it all! .

My question wasn't intended to challenge your criticisms. I was just trying to understand your POV better...

[HalfTere]

Well, then I must ask: do you understand it better? Have I perhaps even convinced you that I am correct in my opinions?

I know art is subjective, but maybe my post was so awesome that it actually achieved objective criticism of art, which is actually possible if you redefine art into something that's not really art: e.g. modern competitive gymnastics, where little girls injure themselves in order to perform technically impressive routines of incredible mechanical rigor.

[Optimus Prime]

@HalfTere, I can see where you are coming from...at least how all the characters at some points seem to have the same voice.

[HalfTere]

Oh, and his poetry is uniformally awful.

[Ayrin]

HalfTere;360019 said:

Oh, and his poetry is uniformally awful.

Lol, quite possible . I've found most poetry I've ever attempted to read (not much, to be honest) horrible, so I don't consider myself a good judge.

Anyhow, I mostly read the poetry because some interesting info about something in the story might be found there .

[Salamander Cake]

One of my gripes with this series is how I find it to be so futile in some aspects. Let me try to explain further as Futile may not be the best to describe it.

I just finished reading Reapers Gale so I'll put the rest under spoiler tag.

Spoiler

What bugged me about this book and why I mentioned in the other thread that I was kind of disappointed in RG is that there is so much build up at times that in the end, it feels futile or anti-climactic when things finally play out. For example, the three sisters are being built up as super powerful and as we read along you are expecting this big climax only to have QB show up and end it all in a matter of two paragraphs. Same thing goes with Ruin, after his whole trek across the continent, he repays his debt to the Azath and when he flies off to Letheras you're left with the impression that he's going to show up and all hell is going to break loose. Nope, cusser bolt to the leg and some more QB magic and less than a page later he's flying off to save his life.

Same thing happened with Rhulad and Karsa. You are expecting this huge battle and nothing. He cuts off his arm and he dies. DUH, I've been waiting three books for someone to figure that out.

Overall I like the books alot, it just seems to me that a few times I've done all this reading to be left with a semi-empty feeling at the end.

This post has been edited by Imperial Historian: 06 October 2008 - 03:47 PM

[Optimus Prime]

@Salamander Cake

I can see that being annoying. I took the opposite view in concerns to the end of the book you're talking about though.

Spoiler

I liked how SE showed that no matter how powerful someone is (Ruin, the Sisters) that nobody is invincible. I will admit to some annoyance at the Icarium vs Karsa build up, but it was also cool how Karsa realized Icarium was not his enemy and constantly is maturing as a character.

This post has been edited by Imperial Historian: 06 October 2008 - 03:48 PM

[Dance]

Salamander Cake;363400 said:

One of my gripes with this series is how I find it to be so futile in some aspects. Let me try to explain further as Futile may not be the best to describe it.

I just finished reading Reapers Gale so I'll put the rest under spoiler tag.

Spoiler

What bugged me about this book and why I mentioned in the other thread that I was kind of disappointed in RG is that there is so much build up at times that in the end, it feels futile or anti-climactic when things finally play out. For example, the three sisters are being built up as super powerful and as we read along you are expecting this big climax only to have QB show up and end it all in a matter of two paragraphs. Same thing goes with Ruin, after his whole trek across the continent, he repays his debt to the Azath and when he flies off to Letheras you're left with the impression that he's going to show up and all hell is going to break loose. Nope, cusser bolt to the leg and some more QB magic and less than a page later he's flying off to save his life.

Same thing happened with Rhulad and Karsa. You are expecting this huge battle and nothing. He cuts off his arm and he dies. DUH, I've been waiting three books for someone to figure that out.

Overall I like the books alot, it just seems to me that a few times I've done all this reading to be left with a semi-empty feeling at the end.

Spoiler

Am I alone in thinking the Karsa vs Rhulad fight was awesome in it's unexpectedness? And the whole, "I shall kill you... once." Perfect.

This post has been edited by Imperial Historian: 06 October 2008 - 03:48 PM

[Ayrin]

I agree with both of you (pathetic, ain't it? ). At the one hand, the more or less constant anti-climaxes are starting to get annoying. On the other hand, I almost fell off my chair laughing when

Spoiler

Ruin got shot down

just *because* it was such a huge anti-climax.

Also... Ceterum censeo Karsa esse delendam (with reservation for grammar...)

This post has been edited by Imperial Historian: 06 October 2008 - 03:48 PM

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I move that this thread should be moved to the TtH forum.

[Khellendros]

Oooh, I love to jump on criticism wagons! I love the books, but....

For me, as for quite a few others I gather, the constant pseudo-philosophical asides do, cumulatively, tend to irritate me.

But my personal pet peeve would have to be 'must needs'. I noticed recently, in House of Chains, characters said 'must needs' five times over two pages. Erikson appears incapable of using the infinitive 'need to'. Even simple sentences like, 'I need to pee', turns into 'I must needs pee.' Drives me bonkers

[Optimus Prime]

We should definitely move this thread into the TtH forum.