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Some interesting points about civilsations when re-reading House of Chains..
in particular about the Teblor, which made me think that they were once far more civilised than they are now...(mmpb p. 81)
"To survive, we must forget. So Icarium told us. Those things that we had come to, those things that softened us. We must abandon them...."
"We must burn our (another word I do not know).. and leave naught but ash. We must forget our history and seek only our most ancient of legends"
And another point... it seems that when the Andii/Edur invasion took place, and I believe this is what is meant by the Spririt Wars, the elder gods were not the only ones who wished to bring peace.
"The Spirit Wars were two, perhaps three invasions, and had little to do with the Teblor. Foreign gods and demons. Their battles shook the mountains and then but one force remained...."
This makes me think of the MT prologue and the Edur, and does this give some indication of where Letheras lies?
"The Forkassal was said to have come to the place of the Spirit Wars, seeking to make peace between the contestants. That is one of the torn pieces of the tale. For the demon's effort it was destroyed. That is another piece. Icarium too sought to end the war, but he arrived too late, and the victors knew they could not defeat him so they did not even try."
Criticism of Malazan Book of the Fallen
#402
Imperial Historian 
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Posted 13 January 2006 - 05:52 PM
I was fairly sure the "spirit wars" were the wars between the jaghut and the imass, not the andii and edur, a jaghut or a group of jaghut lived around teh laoderon plateau (and seemingly is still alive deep in the ice) and the imass came to slay him, the assail and icariium sought to stop the slaughter but failed.
#403
Monoch Ochem
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Posted 13 January 2006 - 06:48 PM
I share IH's understanding. Besides, I think that if an FA or Icarium showed up, it would have been noted in MT. Now there's a thought: FA bringing 'peace' to the K'Chain CheMalle and Tistes....damn!!
"We greet you Jaghut."
#404 Guest_Gytha_*
Posted 15 January 2006 - 11:41 AM
Hmmm, there's not a lot that bugs me enough to worry me. I do hate the way that you are just getting into a story line when Erikson cuts to a new one. Of course just as you are getting into the new one - cut! Oh, and I hate when he kills off a character I like 
As to the stereotype argument (way back when) I do see where people are coming from but I see only minor characters being stereotypes, not anyone who matters. With so many characters to keep track of I don't see any problem making minor characters stereotypes - it makes his point without having to waste time getting the character's personality across (you fill in the blanks yourself) and he doesn't have to worry about confusing minor characters if they are similar.
Also I have an answer to the women in the army argument (also way back when). When I was in year 10 we had a guy who was an expert in weapons and warfare (he even made his own) come to speak to us about medieval weapons and life. He told us why there weren't many (if any) women soldiers. He said it had nothing to do with physical attributes or aggressiveness (in fact he said that women are usually more aggressive than men and they would be better soldiers). It was population growth. You only need one man for every 100 women to keep the population expanding so men were expendable, women weren't. So Erikson may be unrealistic as to numbers of women soldiers in comparison to medieval times but as long as there is no need to worry about population growth, there is no reason to keep women out of the army.
As to the stereotype argument (way back when) I do see where people are coming from but I see only minor characters being stereotypes, not anyone who matters. With so many characters to keep track of I don't see any problem making minor characters stereotypes - it makes his point without having to waste time getting the character's personality across (you fill in the blanks yourself) and he doesn't have to worry about confusing minor characters if they are similar.
Also I have an answer to the women in the army argument (also way back when). When I was in year 10 we had a guy who was an expert in weapons and warfare (he even made his own) come to speak to us about medieval weapons and life. He told us why there weren't many (if any) women soldiers. He said it had nothing to do with physical attributes or aggressiveness (in fact he said that women are usually more aggressive than men and they would be better soldiers). It was population growth. You only need one man for every 100 women to keep the population expanding so men were expendable, women weren't. So Erikson may be unrealistic as to numbers of women soldiers in comparison to medieval times but as long as there is no need to worry about population growth, there is no reason to keep women out of the army.
#406 Guest_BAD_*
Posted 15 January 2006 - 03:29 PM
It seems the thread has come full circle since I joined pretty much two years ago this week.
Way back on pages 5, 6, 7 and 8 (http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...p?t=2771&page=5) there is a pretty lengthy debate about the number of female's in the malazan army and several realted themes that come with it. A point I brought up:-
and
Read those few pages. Lots of interesting stuff.
Way back on pages 5, 6, 7 and 8 (http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...p?t=2771&page=5) there is a pretty lengthy debate about the number of female's in the malazan army and several realted themes that come with it. A point I brought up:-
BAD said:
An extremely sexist point here, I think? =/ Has anyone given thought to the idea that because the empress is a woman (Surly/Laseen) it has filtered down through the ranks of the army and such groups.
ie Laseen was sick of all the men getting all the powertrips, she offed the current Emporer and his trusted companions, put herself in at the top and slowly influenced and changed the rest to suit her ideas? (Unfortunately it back fired 'cos now Kellanved and Dancer are Gods and suceed in undermining her empire as much as possible. You think Laseens a blonde in disguise?)
ie Laseen was sick of all the men getting all the powertrips, she offed the current Emporer and his trusted companions, put herself in at the top and slowly influenced and changed the rest to suit her ideas? (Unfortunately it back fired 'cos now Kellanved and Dancer are Gods and suceed in undermining her empire as much as possible. You think Laseens a blonde in disguise?)
and
BAD said:
. . . couldn't she have been influencing desicions using her high position in the Claw, pre-empress? I believe that they could have been very persuasive. 
Read those few pages. Lots of interesting stuff.
#407 Guest_Rahl Windsong_*
Posted 16 January 2006 - 01:29 AM
Personally I think the Bridgeburners are actaully scared "wide eyed stupid" and in that condition the ONLY thing to keep sanity in perspective is to make jokes about it and seem nonchalant. I have been a forest fire fighter in my time and I have seen panicked men before who acted exactly like Erikson portrays the Bridgeburners as.
The only complaint I have about this story is, it seems to me that everybody and his dog is somehow ascended. Other then that the story is excellent and for me the attitude of the Bridgeburners is different then the slavers in that the Bridgeburners know exactly how they are screwed all the time, while the slavers think they are in control and they have no idea what so ever.
Thats the difference.
Rahl
The only complaint I have about this story is, it seems to me that everybody and his dog is somehow ascended. Other then that the story is excellent and for me the attitude of the Bridgeburners is different then the slavers in that the Bridgeburners know exactly how they are screwed all the time, while the slavers think they are in control and they have no idea what so ever.
Thats the difference.
Rahl
#408
Monoch Ochem
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Posted 17 January 2006 - 02:45 PM
@ Gytha: I think it was more than the utilitarian reasoning you gave (and I have to say it was a very interesting read :thumb: ). I'd venture that women were simply regarded as inferior and weaker beings not capable of war-man's business. Just for clarity, let me just say that I do not subscribe to any such bigotry (phew)!
@ BAD: Interesting feminist argument there but what about the Grey Swords, Letheri, Tiste Andii and other non-Empire, male-led (except for the recent re-structuring of the Grey Swords) armies that use women? I'm not sure the pronounced presence of women is unique to Laseen...
@ BAD: Interesting feminist argument there but what about the Grey Swords, Letheri, Tiste Andii and other non-Empire, male-led (except for the recent re-structuring of the Grey Swords) armies that use women? I'm not sure the pronounced presence of women is unique to Laseen...
"We greet you Jaghut."
#409
tiam
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 04:39 PM
Something that annoyed me although not relevant to the feminist comments:) was the sudden expansive vocbulary that every person in the Malazan world under took. The only example i can think of is when through the whole of HoC Fiddlers giving it hoods breath and calling all the woman lasses. Then at the scorpian fight says ''Ok everything equidistant?'' or something like that. It just annoyed me how a common soldier could come out with some thing like that.
#410 Guest_Faraed_*
Posted 31 January 2006 - 05:17 AM
The thing that annoyed me a bit was like when things seemed to happen for no reason or just come out of no where like when kalam is in the tent at the end of HoC I never really got how Quick ben appeared
#411
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Posted 31 January 2006 - 08:25 AM
didn't he use one of QB's summoning acorns or pebbles or summat? his shaved knuckle in the hole as it's referred to?
yeah he did.. POV Kalam - "with his other hand he drew out the acorn and tossed it on the floor."
yeah he did.. POV Kalam - "with his other hand he drew out the acorn and tossed it on the floor."
#412
Dagger
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Posted 08 February 2006 - 07:01 PM
If this were Terry Goodkind's forum, you'd all be banned.
The vocabulary and philosophical bent of some the characters gets to me sometimes. Not every single person should be so introspective, especially someone like Karsa.
The vocabulary and philosophical bent of some the characters gets to me sometimes. Not every single person should be so introspective, especially someone like Karsa.
"I can see my days of not taking you seriously are coming to a middle." - Mal Reynolds
#413
Tsundoku
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Posted 15 February 2006 - 09:58 AM
Introspection can often be a product of experience, rather than natural inclination. Eg "Why is all this stuff happening to me? I could blame everyone else, or I could understand the common element is me, so it could be something I'm doing ...?" and so on.
Let's face it, Karsa has a fair amount of kooky experiences to give him pause for thought. If he wasn't smart enough to do that, he would most probably be dead.
Cheers,
La Sombra, needs introspection like a cactus needs toothpaste
Let's face it, Karsa has a fair amount of kooky experiences to give him pause for thought. If he wasn't smart enough to do that, he would most probably be dead.
Cheers,
La Sombra, needs introspection like a cactus needs toothpaste
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"I have strong views about not tempting providence and, as a wise man once said, the difference between luck and a wheelbarrow is, luck doesn’t work if you push it." - Colonel Orhan, Sixteen Ways to Defend a Walled City - KJ Parker
#415 Guest_Andreas_*
Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:38 AM
Why though? Because he is big, strong and violent? Keep in mind that he is also very silet. Seems to me a rather obvious candidate for the introspective type.
As to the soldiers being too academic, it seems to me the soldiering environment in the Malaz world is much more philosophical than in this one. It seems they train all their soldiers in the hope that they will one day be commanding something, which requires some intellectual challenge. Also, most of the prominent soldiers we meet have lived much longer than they should, looking much younger than they would have regularly. I'd say they have a better chance to attain wisdom and intellect than most scholars do... at least the unnatural lifespan would account for some introspection...
The thing is, in revewing a character in this saga, we can't really compare them to someone in a similar role in our own world. Erikson (and Esselmont) have created a pretty different millitary doctrine, and a very different world in general.
But the primary reason, I think, is that introspection is a simple means to get the reader to know the character and to point out similarities and differences between the different characters and with the reader.
Robert Jordan uses character's frustration with the opposite sex in a similar manner, though in good Jordan-style he fails spectacularilly, in that he obviously have no idea how people think. But that was a digression. In any case, I believe it is primarilly for the benefit of the readers...
As to the soldiers being too academic, it seems to me the soldiering environment in the Malaz world is much more philosophical than in this one. It seems they train all their soldiers in the hope that they will one day be commanding something, which requires some intellectual challenge. Also, most of the prominent soldiers we meet have lived much longer than they should, looking much younger than they would have regularly. I'd say they have a better chance to attain wisdom and intellect than most scholars do... at least the unnatural lifespan would account for some introspection...
The thing is, in revewing a character in this saga, we can't really compare them to someone in a similar role in our own world. Erikson (and Esselmont) have created a pretty different millitary doctrine, and a very different world in general.
But the primary reason, I think, is that introspection is a simple means to get the reader to know the character and to point out similarities and differences between the different characters and with the reader.
Robert Jordan uses character's frustration with the opposite sex in a similar manner, though in good Jordan-style he fails spectacularilly, in that he obviously have no idea how people think. But that was a digression. In any case, I believe it is primarilly for the benefit of the readers...
#416
Folken
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Posted 16 February 2006 - 02:06 AM
If the soldiers were all stupid and things and Erikson wrote the way not so intellectual soldiers speak we'd get "omg Erikson's writing is so mediocre." There's no winning with you people lol...esp the people that come on here and say "oh somethings are far too unrealistic"...Fantasy by defenition isn't real...gosh
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#417
Trotts
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Posted 16 February 2006 - 02:30 AM
introspective i can understand, but hes clearly quite intelligent, as intelligent as a number of mages weve met. and thats fine, but then hes really really buff too. magic practically has no effect on him, and he even single handedly beat off 2 deragoth. to me that seems overkill, hes too amazing (like rake).
this isnt a criticism......its in this thread as a response....okay fine i dunno what its doing in this thread, leave me alone
this isnt a criticism......its in this thread as a response....okay fine i dunno what its doing in this thread, leave me alone
#418 Guest_Dakkareth_*
Posted 17 February 2006 - 03:08 AM
Trotts said:
introspective i can understand, but hes clearly quite intelligent, as intelligent as a number of mages weve met. and thats fine, but then hes really really buff too. magic practically has no effect on him, and he even single handedly beat off 2 deragoth. to me that seems overkill, hes too amazing (like rake).
Karsa is an awesome asshole.
#419
Agraba
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Posted 17 February 2006 - 10:00 PM
Well, we did learn that Blood Oil has the Ottataral effect. And Tool said that Ottataral can't protect you from elder magic, so a lot of people can rip Karsa apart. Even the mages from the Trygalle Trade Guild, because they can access Tellan.
And Karsa clearly doesn't stand a chance against Forkrul Assail... or that guy from the lighthouse, Keeper. And he'd definately get mopped up by someone like Mok, or Iron Bars.
And Karsa clearly doesn't stand a chance against Forkrul Assail... or that guy from the lighthouse, Keeper. And he'd definately get mopped up by someone like Mok, or Iron Bars.
#420
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 18 February 2006 - 11:07 AM
Karsa dispersed wards of Tellann when he freed the Jaghut in the Jhag Odhan. he survived (what I assume was, it could've been CG magic) a KE assault when he killed the Edur on the Silandah. if the Deragoth had any magic, it was as Elder as it gets. yet he brushed them all off.
the FA and Keeper whipped Karsa when he was still a dumb Teblor, and unarmed and unprepared, respectively. now that he has his Deloth sword AND HAS KILLED TWO DERAGOTH I think he could take even Serenity.
Mok and Iron Bars though, that's an interesting thought. don't think we've ever seen Karsa take on a swordsman of true skill, such as the Seguleh Third or an Avowed. I'd still lean towards the Toblakai though. he would take wounds, but with that sword in his hands he'd be largely unstoppable.
the FA and Keeper whipped Karsa when he was still a dumb Teblor, and unarmed and unprepared, respectively. now that he has his Deloth sword AND HAS KILLED TWO DERAGOTH I think he could take even Serenity.
Mok and Iron Bars though, that's an interesting thought. don't think we've ever seen Karsa take on a swordsman of true skill, such as the Seguleh Third or an Avowed. I'd still lean towards the Toblakai though. he would take wounds, but with that sword in his hands he'd be largely unstoppable.
