[Andorion]

amphibian, on 06 November 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

Quote

Andorion's TRP list

Look at the Indian guy listening so readily to a Nepali guy's book reviews.

I haven't read too much of the entire list, but I can say that Ash will take you a while to finish - even at the fast pace you read at (also something I do too). I think your overall list is well apportioned and you'll enjoy that as is.

Hey I listen to anybody who has read more stuff than I have, and on this forum thats lots of people. So what can you tell about Robert Bakker?

[Cause]

Congratulations! You have passed the trial and are now a Man.

The symptoms of wanting to murder women will gradually decline and then disappear over the next 2-3 months. Wanting to murder Cadsuane may never fully go away.

I have to say that I am in fact jealous. I did a continuous read of books 1-10 (the rest were not out) and let me tell you ending on 10 hurt. Still for me being able to power through books 7-10 one of the other helped hide how atrocious those books were but I was never able to recover my full enthusiasm for the rest.

[acesn8s]

Quote

"Asmodean pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him."

I think it was more an opportunity seized than a full-on assassination run.

[Abyss]

I'll echo the upthread comments... this was a fun thread Andorion. I enjoyed your read-thru.

Andorion, on 06 November 2014 - 02:03 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on 06 November 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

Unfortunately, while I agree with you, it's explicitly Graendal. They state she's killed two Forsaken after leaving Arangar to die, and that's pretty much all the mention they give. Apparently you were meant to work this out because of the limited suspect group of people who could actually do it and who would have a motive to, and while overlooking the lack of anything suggesting who it could be or why it mattered at all in the end.

And yeah, this thread's been fun.

But why would Graendal do that? Her style was always operating from shadows, pulling strings She only got directly involved because she was forced. Makes no sense.

acesn8s, on 06 November 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Quote

"Asmodean pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him."

I think it was more an opportunity seized than a full-on assassination run.

I always figured it was to deny Rand access to a full blown male Channeler as teacher. Graendel, iirc, was one of the few Foresaken who grasped that Rand wasn't (initially) Lew Therin with all his knowledge and powers. Killing his tutor denied him a serious asset and took care of a traitorous colleague in the process.

Andorion, on 06 November 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

Finally, now that I am done with WoT, I would like some advice. My immediate TRP looks like this:

1.Richard morgan Dark Defiles

2.Terry Pratchett Raising Steam

3.Max Gladstone Full Fathom Five

4.Peter Hamilton

5.Robert Reddick

6.Scott Westerfeld

7.Ash a secret history

8.Jeff Van Der Veer

9.Kameron Hurley Mirror Empire

10.Michael Stackpole

11.Adrian Tchaichovsky

TheThe first three books I will read in order. They are all part of series I have been following. What I would like is some advice regarding the order/viability of the others. If anyone thinks its better to relocate this question to a new thread, say so and I will start a new one. My basic problem is that having finished WoT I don't want to begin another huge series, but jusr read medium/light books for a bit.

DARK DEFILES was pure awesome, and a far different thing from WoT, so i suspect and expect you'll enjoy.


Re Stackpole, i've only read his DRAGONCROWN CYCLE... which i liked, didn't love. Can't say i'd recommend it post WoT. Save it for when you need a fix of fairly classic fantasy with wizards and Elves and Dragons, the odd cannon and Evil Overlord villains bent on world domination.

[Andorion]

Cause, on 06 November 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Congratulations! You have passed the trial and are now a Man.

The symptoms of wanting to murder women will gradually decline and then disappear over the next 2-3 months. Wanting to murder Cadsuane may never fully go away.

I have to say that I am in fact jealous. I did a continuous read of books 1-10 (the rest were not out) and let me tell you ending on 10 hurt. Still for me being able to power through books 7-10 one of the other helped hide how atrocious those books were but I was never able to recover my full enthusiasm for the rest.

I knew I had a problem when i caught myself cheering women being spanked. This series can warp the mind.

Regarding book 10, I think it seemed so bad to everybody specifically becasue, book 9 ended on a high point, with a really exciting episode. Book 10 starts slow, and I thought it was the usual RJ slow start thing. By the time the horrifying realisation dawned that the tempo would never build, that the entire book would just plod along like this, I was into freefall, so I just powered through. On the plus side, doing a back to back read means, Knife of Dreams is twice as awesome after book 10.

[Andorion]

Abyss, on 06 November 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

I'll echo the upthread comments... this was a fun thread Andorion. I enjoyed your read-thru.

Andorion, on 06 November 2014 - 02:03 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on 06 November 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

Unfortunately, while I agree with you, it's explicitly Graendal. They state she's killed two Forsaken after leaving Arangar to die, and that's pretty much all the mention they give. Apparently you were meant to work this out because of the limited suspect group of people who could actually do it and who would have a motive to, and while overlooking the lack of anything suggesting who it could be or why it mattered at all in the end.

And yeah, this thread's been fun.

But why would Graendal do that? Her style was always operating from shadows, pulling strings She only got directly involved because she was forced. Makes no sense.

acesn8s, on 06 November 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Quote

"Asmodean pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him."

I think it was more an opportunity seized than a full-on assassination run.

I always figured it was to deny Rand access to a full blown male Channeler as teacher. Graendel, iirc, was one of the few Foresaken who grasped that Rand wasn't (initially) Lew Therin with all his knowledge and powers. Killing his tutor denied him a serious asset and took care of a traitorous colleague in the process.

Andorion, on 06 November 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

Finally, now that I am done with WoT, I would like some advice. My immediate TRP looks like this:

1. Richard morgan Dark Defiles

2. Terry Pratchett Raising Steam

3. Max Gladstone Full Fathom Five

4. Peter Hamilton

5. Robert Reddick

6. Scott Westerfeld

7. Ash a secret history

8. Jeff Van Der Veer

9. Kameron Hurley Mirror Empire

10. Michael Stackpole

11. Adrian Tchaichovsky

TheThe first three books I will read in order. They are all part of series I have been following. What I would like is some advice regarding the order/viability of the others. If anyone thinks its better to relocate this question to a new thread, say so and I will start a new one. My basic problem is that having finished WoT I don't want to begin another huge series, but jusr read medium/light books for a bit.

DARK DEFILES was pure awesome, and a far different thing from WoT, so i suspect and expect you'll enjoy.

Re Stackpole, i've only read his DRAGONCROWN CYCLE... which i liked, didn't love. Can't say i'd recommend it post WoT. Save it for when you need a fix of fairly classic fantasy with wizards and Elves and Dragons, the odd cannon and Evil Overlord villains bent on world domination.

Regarding Graendal the motivation is crystal clear. Just having trouble picturing her sneaking in to do a covert kill on Asmo. But as she showed in the last book she can rough it if she wants to...

I have as a matter of fact started Dark Defiles. I expect to finish sometime tomorrow. Will post in your Dark Defiles thread when done.

As for Stackpole, my main interest is in his exploration oriented books. I feel there is a serious dearth of good fantasy exploration books so I thought Stackpole might be a good option in this regard. I was thinking specifically of his Age of Discovery (Cartomancy) and Crown Colony books.

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 06 November 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

amphibian, on 06 November 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

Quote

Andorion's TRP list

Look at the Indian guy listening so readily to a Nepali guy's book reviews.

I haven't read too much of the entire list, but I can say that Ash will take you a while to finish - even at the fast pace you read at (also something I do too). I think your overall list is well apportioned and you'll enjoy that as is.

Hey I listen to anybody who has read more stuff than I have, and on this forum thats lots of people. So what can you tell about Robert Bakker?

Robert Bakker, the paleontologist? I have not read his for-kids dinosaur books.

Maybe you mean R. Scott Bakker? Very dark medieval-ish characters who either engage in or experience psychological manipulations during a build-up to an apocalyptic war.

If Robert Redick, I haven't read his books.

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 06 November 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

Andorion, on 06 November 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

amphibian, on 06 November 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

Quote

Andorion's TRP list

Look at the Indian guy listening so readily to a Nepali guy's book reviews.

I haven't read too much of the entire list, but I can say that Ash will take you a while to finish - even at the fast pace you read at (also something I do too). I think your overall list is well apportioned and you'll enjoy that as is.

Hey I listen to anybody who has read more stuff than I have, and on this forum thats lots of people. So what can you tell about Robert Bakker?

Robert Bakker, the paleontologist? I have not read his for-kids dinosaur books.

Maybe you mean R. Scott Bakker? Very dark medieval-ish characters who either engage in or experience psychological manipulations during a build-up to an apocalyptic war.

If Robert Redick, I haven't read his books.

Meant R scott bakker. Doesn't he have more than one series?

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 07 November 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

Meant R scott bakker. Doesn't he have more than one series?

I like his books and think he's inventive in a grim, disturbing way in how he approaches people in a fantasy world similar to Tolkien's (far more disturbing, diverse and interesting though) and the necessities of war in a "world is going to end" time.

He also wrote a trek through mountains that is simultaneously a homage to and an obliteration of Gandalf and the Companions going through Moria. It is one of the creepiest, most awesome storylines I have ever read.

However, he is not going to appeal to some people. I've put in a bunch of thought, especially in response to RequiresHate's/Benjanun's trolling criticism of him as a misogynist and so on, and I don't think he is that - but he is exploring religion, social dynamics, survival of violence and discrimination, manipulation and gender politics while writing his stories in a cold way that will offend some people.

I also think that I probably don't like R Scott Bakker the blogger. His tweets are ok though.

He has 3 trilogies planned - the first is done and the second is 2/3rds done. He published in 2009 and 2011, so he is kinda due for his third book some day in the next year (hopefully....).

This post has been edited by amphibian: 07 November 2014 - 04:44 AM

[D'iversify]

amphibian, on 07 November 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

He has 3 trilogies planned - the first is done and the second is 2/3rds done. He published in 2009 and 2011, so he is kinda due for his third book some day in the next year (hopefully....).

Yeah, The Unholy Consult may be getting split into two books - he's submitted the draft, which was around 350,000 words, a while back, but publishers have been quiet (he was also dropped by his Canadian distributor, which has been interpreted by some, especially on his Westeros forum, as a sign of his publishers' losing faith on account of his next book having gone too 'out there', but from what Bakker has said himself it sounds as if the book will still be coming out in some form or another and very most likely with his current publishers).

I'm a bit of a Bakker cultist, so I can't be objective about this, I very much recommend his work. But, like Amphibian, I suggest that reading his blog doesn't necessarily give the best impression (it's almost all posts on his eliminativist 'Blind Brain Theory' version of Philosophy of Mind). And if you found the weird sex elements of WoT a bit perturbing, well, let's say that Bakker has a shed load more of weird sex going on (not the same kind as Jordan, a whole different kind of weird).

[amphibian]

Bakker's more upfront about sex than Jordan is and overtly makes it an act of love and/or clear manipulation. That kinda diminishes the creepiness of Jordan's wish fulfillment stuff - it's obvious Bakker isn't putting his own desires down on the page.

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 07 November 2014 - 03:14 AM, said:

He has 2 trilogies. Idk if bk 3 of the 2nd is out yet though.

amphibian, on 07 November 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

Andorion, on 07 November 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

Meant R scott bakker. Doesn't he have more than one series?

I like his books and think he's inventive in a grim, disturbing way in how he approaches people in a fantasy world similar to Tolkien's (far more disturbing, diverse and interesting though) and the necessities of war in a "world is going to end" time.

He also wrote a trek through mountains that is simultaneously a homage to and an obliteration of Gandalf and the Companions going through Moria. It is one of the creepiest, most awesome storylines I have ever read.

However, he is not going to appeal to some people. I've put in a bunch of thought, especially in response to RequiresHate's/Benjanun's trolling criticism of him as a misogynist and so on, and I don't think he is that - but he is exploring religion, social dynamics, survival of violence and discrimination, manipulation and gender politics while writing his stories in a cold way that will offend some people.

I also think that I probably don't like R Scott Bakker the blogger. His tweets are ok though.

He has 3 trilogies planned - the first is done and the second is 2/3rds done. He published in 2009 and 2011, so he is kinda due for his third book some day in the next year (hopefully....).

D, on 07 November 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

amphibian, on 07 November 2014 - 04:33 AM, said:

He has 3 trilogies planned - the first is done and the second is 2/3rds done. He published in 2009 and 2011, so he is kinda due for his third book some day in the next year (hopefully....).

Yeah, The Unholy Consult may be getting split into two books - he's submitted the draft, which was around 350,000 words, a while back, but publishers have been quiet (he was also dropped by his Canadian distributor, which has been interpreted by some, especially on his Westeros forum, as a sign of his publishers' losing faith on account of his next book having gone too 'out there', but from what Bakker has said himself it sounds as if the book will still be coming out in some form or another and very most likely with his current publishers).

I'm a bit of a Bakker cultist, so I can't be objective about this, I very much recommend his work. But, like Amphibian, I suggest that reading his blog doesn't necessarily give the best impression (it's almost all posts on his eliminativist 'Blind Brain Theory' version of Philosophy of Mind). And if you found the weird sex elements of WoT a bit perturbing, well, let's say that Bakker has a shed load more of weird sex going on (not the same kind as Jordan, a whole different kind of weird).

amphibian, on 07 November 2014 - 03:48 PM, said:

Bakker's more upfront about sex than Jordan is and overtly makes it an act of love and/or clear manipulation. That kinda diminishes the creepiness of Jordan's wish fulfillment stuff - it's obvious Bakker isn't putting his own desires down on the page.

Right. So multiple trilogies, deep philosophy, sex and genger treatment issue, but epic in scale, with rich plot. Probably something I will look at next year. Scott Bakker and Mark Lawrence are two people on my to-read list for next year, but after I have dealt with more immediate authors.

[Abyss]

And frankly re Bakker, no one knows when the conclusion of the second trilo will street, so unless you enjoy extended waits when you're at a key point in a series,i would wait. You could read the first trilo... It's nicely complete and very satisfying, but it will likely leave you wanting to read the second... And, alas...

[Slow Ben]

I know I'm in the minority regarding Bakker, but I absolutely hated his work.



I had to force myself To finish the first book. Then plowed and plowed and plowed through the second. I finally gave up about 25 pages to the end of the 2nd.

[Andorion]

Abyss, on 08 November 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

And frankly re Bakker, no one knows when the conclusion of the second trilo will street, so unless you enjoy extended waits when you're at a key point in a series,i would wait. You could read the first trilo... It's nicely complete and very satisfying, but it will likely leave you wanting to read the second... And, alas...

Slow Ben, on 08 November 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

I know I'm in the minority regarding Bakker, but I absolutely hated his work.



I had to force myself To finish the first book. Then plowed and plowed and plowed through the second. I finally gave up about 25 pages to the end of the 2nd.

So theres no clear ending in sight for the books and some people hate them. Why does this remind of Jordan again?

[D'iversify]

Andorion, on 08 November 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

So theres no clear ending in sight for the books and some people hate them. Why does this remind of Jordan again?

Well, people tend to hate them for different reasons from why they hate Jordan. There's actually a lot of similarity to the hate that Toll the Hounds gets to the hate Bakker gets, namely for its being heavily introspective and utilised by the author as a means to discussing philsophy as opposed to pursuing fantasy. There's a link in that Erikson supposedly was convinced by reading Bakker that he could go more introspective without producing problems of narrative flow.




As for the lack of an apparent clear ending, well, the first trilogy is fairly self-contained in that a lot of major arcs are begun and resolved within it. It also has quite a different flavour compared to the second trilogy and the two are separated in in-world time by about 20 years. Of course, the Big Arcs (the Consult, the Second Apocalypse) aren't resolved in the first trilogy, in fact are in many ways only foreshadowed or dipped into, but you can easily read the first trilogy and be fairly satisfied at the pulling together of most of the threads without feeling you have to necessarily read the second trilogy immediately after.




The second trilogy isn't complete but Bakker has submitted a draft of Book Three to his publishers. The issue is primarily whether it is going to be released as one or two volumes. There are some other mitigating circumsatnces, such as apparent conflicts between author and publishers over content and the fact that Bakker for the past three years or so has at times had to work part-time on the draft because he's not making enough money from writing and has had to do some teaching to support himself. Bakker has himself stated that Book three is going to resolve a lot of threads but also that it will open up a whole new Pandora's box of issues which will be dealt with in the third trilogy. There is next to no info on what the third trilogy is about save that the title will be a spoiiler for events at the end of Aspect Emperor Book Three, so it is currently parading under the cover of 'The Series That Shall Not Be Named'.




So in general, I would definitely recommend trying Bakker. As stated elsewhere, I am partisan. But given that each trilogy is fairly self-contained and that book three of trilogy two should be out within at max a year and a half, I see no harm even if you are annoyed by having to wait for new books to come out of at least reading the first trilogy now-ish. Plus, to contrast with Jordan, Bakker has, I think, better prose, and whilst he writes reasonably long books he rarely ventures into bloat - I would find it difficult thinking of a particular description or passage that struck me as particularly unnecessary.

[Macros]

Slow Ben, on 08 November 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

I know I'm in the minority regarding Bakker, but I absolutely hated his work.



I had to force myself To finish the first book. Then plowed and plowed and plowed through the second. I finally gave up about 25 pages to the end of the 2nd.

I wouldnt say minority Ben, a lot of dislike for Bakkers work on here

[Andorion]

D, on 08 November 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Andorion, on 08 November 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

So theres no clear ending in sight for the books and some people hate them. Why does this remind of Jordan again?

Well, people tend to hate them for different reasons from why they hate Jordan. There's actually a lot of similarity to the hate that Toll the Hounds gets to the hate Bakker gets, namely for its being heavily introspective and utilised by the author as a means to discussing philsophy as opposed to pursuing fantasy. There's a link in that Erikson supposedly was convinced by reading Bakker that he could go more introspective without producing problems of narrative flow.




As for the lack of an apparent clear ending, well, the first trilogy is fairly self-contained in that a lot of major arcs are begun and resolved within it. It also has quite a different flavour compared to the second trilogy and the two are separated in in-world time by about 20 years. Of course, the Big Arcs (the Consult, the Second Apocalypse) aren't resolved in the first trilogy, in fact are in many ways only foreshadowed or dipped into, but you can easily read the first trilogy and be fairly satisfied at the pulling together of most of the threads without feeling you have to necessarily read the second trilogy immediately after.




The second trilogy isn't complete but Bakker has submitted a draft of Book Three to his publishers. The issue is primarily whether it is going to be released as one or two volumes. There are some other mitigating circumsatnces, such as apparent conflicts between author and publishers over content and the fact that Bakker for the past three years or so has at times had to work part-time on the draft because he's not making enough money from writing and has had to do some teaching to support himself. Bakker has himself stated that Book three is going to resolve a lot of threads but also that it will open up a whole new Pandora's box of issues which will be dealt with in the third trilogy. There is next to no info on what the third trilogy is about save that the title will be a spoiiler for events at the end of Aspect Emperor Book Three, so it is currently parading under the cover of 'The Series That Shall Not Be Named'.




So in general, I would definitely recommend trying Bakker. As stated elsewhere, I am partisan. But given that each trilogy is fairly self-contained and that book three of trilogy two should be out within at max a year and a half, I see no harm even if you are annoyed by having to wait for new books to come out of at least reading the first trilogy now-ish. Plus, to contrast with Jordan, Bakker has, I think, better prose, and whilst he writes reasonably long books he rarely ventures into bloat - I would find it difficult thinking of a particular description or passage that struck me as particularly unnecessary.

So I'll probably wait till March-April of next year, by which time there may be more definite news about the new trilogy. It should also be enough time for me to finsh my current TRP

[acesn8s]

I read and enjoyed Bakker's first trilogy. I'm waiting to see when book 3 of the second trilogy is coming out before starting it. I thought his magic systems were excellent. I thought Drusas and Caiur fun characters to follow. I didn't really buy into Anasûrimbor's powers, so reading his chapters was a bit of a drag. The Esmenet and Serwe sections were emotionally tough (as they were suppose to be) seeing as Esmenet was an aging prostitute and Serwe was an attractive slave.

Once I know I get all the books in the 2nd trilogy I'll start reading it.

[Andorion]

acesn8s, on 10 November 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

I read and enjoyed Bakker's first trilogy. I'm waiting to see when book 3 of the second trilogy is coming out before starting it. I thought his magic systems were excellent. I thought Drusas and Caiur fun characters to follow. I didn't really buy into Anasûrimbor's powers, so reading his chapters was a bit of a drag. The Esmenet and Serwe sections were emotionally tough (as they were suppose to be) seeing as Esmenet was an aging prostitute and Serwe was an attractive slave.

Once I know I get all the books in the 2nd trilogy I'll start reading it.

I think I will wait for the last book too before starting on Bakker.