[Cause]

I will second the Bakker nomination. The writing and world building is solid. The Story is interesting and while the book does muse on philosophy its not heavy handed, ham fisted or forced in.

D, on 08 November 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Andorion, on 08 November 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

So theres no clear ending in sight for the books and some people hate them. Why does this remind of Jordan again?

Well, people tend to hate them for different reasons from why they hate Jordan. There's actually a lot of similarity to the hate that Toll the Hounds gets to the hate Bakker gets, namely for its being heavily introspective and utilised by the author as a means to discussing philsophy as opposed to pursuing fantasy. There's a link in that Erikson supposedly was convinced by reading Bakker that he could go more introspective without producing problems of narrative flow.

If this is true, Erickson was mistaken.

[Morgoth]

Yeah, These Dreams of You was nowhere near as good as Zeroville.

[Terez]

Andorion, on 06 November 2014 - 02:03 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on 06 November 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

Unfortunately, while I agree with you, it's explicitly Graendal. They state she's killed two Forsaken after leaving Arangar to die, and that's pretty much all the mention they give. Apparently you were meant to work this out because of the limited suspect group of people who could actually do it and who would have a motive to, and while overlooking the lack of anything suggesting who it could be or why it mattered at all in the end.

But why would Graendal do that? Her style was always operating from shadows, pulling strings She only got directly involved because she was forced. Makes no sense.

I totally missed that there was a WoT read-through going on. Which is okay, because the complaints about the middle books bother me as much as the books themselves bother other people.

Anyway, there's a funny thing about Asmodean in RJ's notes. It's a big secret. I will spill it one day, some time well after the upcoming encyclopedia has come out.

[Illuyankas]

Please tell me it isn't a Dumbledore revelation.

[Terez]

Would it really be the end of the world if Asmodean were gay?

But no...he was sleeping with Isendre, remember?

[Terez]

Random post (I might make a few more of these):

Grief, on 18 September 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Andorion, on 18 September 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

9 chapters into the Great Hunt. Liking the build up so far, and laughed through the entire scene of Rand running through the women's quarters with an unsheathed sword. One question does arise though.... In the beginning of Eye of the World, Moiraine said ojects have no power, power is channelled, so her staff is just a concentration aid. Then how does the Horn of Valere exist? Its a legendary magical item, with power of its own, everybody wants it, it can clearly play a major role. So it must have some intrinsic powe rof its own, right?

It turns out there are actually quite a lot of objects with power, and that this is fairly common knowledge (Moiraine should certainly have known), as I remember. I'd just put it down to inconsistency in EoTW, when Jordan probably hadn't planned a lot of the details yet.

The actual quote:

Moiraine said:

Things do not have the Power, child. Even an angreal is only a tool. This is just a pretty blue stone. But it can give off light.

In other words, the Power comes from the True Source, not from the angreal, or the stone which she uses as a focus point for certain things (like eavesdropping). The Horn does not appear to be an object of the Power at all. I realize that this probably became clear as the read went on, but I just wanted to defend the accuracy of what Moiraine said. It's not an EOTWism.

[Terez]

I made it through TDR for this post.

Andorion, on 17 September 2014 - 01:26 AM, said:

Quick concluding thought on Eye of the World:

The last battle involved two Forsaken, whoa re supposed to be the chief assistants of the Dark Lord. They are so terrible that they have to be sealed off with the dark Lord. But here the Green Man killed one off with fungus, and Rand just flailed around with his power, having little too no clue what he was doing and exploded the other chap. So there were 13 Forsaken, now there are 11? That was easy!

Someone already explained their weakness. Rand appears to have killed Aginor by taking the Power of the Eye away from him. Channelers can be killed or burned out by that kind of shock, even when they are channeling normally, and the Eye was like the mainline.

Illuyankas, on 19 September 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

The oblong island of Tar Valon, with the White Tower, home to the Aes Sedai, standing in the midIT'S A VAGINA ISLAND WITH A GIANT STONE DICK STICKING OUT OF IT THAT ALL THE LADIES LIVE INdle is a bit... suggestive.

Fun RJ quote:

RJ said:

INTERVIEW: Oct 24th, 2005
KOD Signing Report - Jarrod (Paraphrased)

JARROD
Eventually Mr. Jordan turned to his quest of finding females that wanted some questions answered and got a good one when a lady asked why the most powerful women in the world get their power in a pale, white shaft (the White Tower).

ROBERT JORDAN
The answer was, "If you can't grasp the symbolism, my dear... Because I thought about having them have their center of power be a hole in the ground and I thought it wasn't really going to be as significant. It wasn't going to stand out and have people say 'Wow, Gee...look at that on the horizon'. You sorta have to walk to the edge and say, 'Welp, don't wanna fall off into that, now do you?'"

Briar King, on 20 September 2014 - 12:48 AM, said:

How the artwork of that guide EVER made it in that book is confusing to me. It was horrible...

Another RJ quote:

RJ said:

INTERVIEW: Apr 7th, 2001
Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein (Verbatim)

AAN'ALLEIN
Oh, this was very interesting: a question about the artwork in the guide.

ROBERT JORDAN
Well, the difficulty with the pictures was something that I did not discover until far too late, the artist who was hired to do the pictures... see, this was done by a packager. Someone who came to me, and done guides before, and came to me and said, "I would like to do this, and here is one I did for Marion Zimmer Bradley, and here's the one I did for Bob Silverberg, and here's the one I did for Jack Vance, and would you, you know..."

I said alright, this looks good, and I called up these people and they said that things went well, but my publisher...the artist was hired to do a certain number of black and white drawings. And as soon as this guy got the package together he went to my publisher, my ... who said yeah, I'd like to publish this. And my publisher said, "No, I'd like to have color drawings, not black and white, and you want to do x number of drawings, but I would like five times as many illustrations."

And that was all good, except that the artist contract...what I did not know was that the artist contract called for a flat fee. And the man who put the package together did not increase the amount of money that he was going to pay the artist. The artist was then asked to do five times as many drawings, in color, instead of in black and white for the same amount of money. His enthusiasm dwindled. [laughter] Now if I had known about this, I would have given the artist some money out of my own pocket, to get better pictures. I couldn't understand why the man who had sat in my study, and drawn such wonderful sketches just from my off-the-cuff descriptions, was suddenly making drawings that seemed very...not very good. But, that was the reason.

Andorion, on 20 September 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Holy shit! Rand just massacred a seemingly innocent merchant party for no reason whatsoever! Is he losing it already?

And two quotes for this one:

RJ said:

INTERVIEW: Oct 29th, 1998
TPOD Signing Report - Kevin Bartlett (Paraphrased)

KEVIN BARTLETT
In The Dragon Reborn, when Rand encountered the lady merchant and her soldiers and slaughtered the whole bunch, did he have a good reason for doing so? Were they all really Darkfriends? Was that eleventh man really a Gray Man, or did Rand just count wrong?

ROBERT JORDAN
He said that it's not supposed to be clear to the reader exactly what is going on. What is supposed to be clear is that there was definitely a Gray Man in the party. But whether or not Rand knew that before he lopped off their heads, we're not supposed to know. It's supposed to be unclear whether Rand is just very observant, or whether he's on the brink of madness.

FOOTNOTE
Clearly Rand didn't notice the Gray Man until after everyone was dead: "He had been sure there were only ten men, but eleven men knelt in that line, one of them without armor of any sort but with a dagger still gripped in his hand." Rand didn't even appear to notice that it was a Gray Man.

RJ said:

INTERVIEW: Oct 2nd, 2005
Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

For Rifty, the extra body Rand found was that of a Gray Man. And, by the way, proof that the lady was no lady. She was a Darkfriend.

Andorion, on 21 September 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

So, as for the book, RJ pulls of a repeat of Eye of the World, where the title character - The Dragon Reborn barely receives one chapter of coverage. how exactly is this a good way to write?

I liked it for a few reasons: it's good to have mystery with the main character, and have to wonder what he's up to every now and then, and also, it's good for a story with a scope as broad as this one to focus on other important characters from time to time. But the mystery was the main thing; it was good to be kept in the dark about what was going on inside Rand's head; that made it all the more interesting when, in TSR, he was already showing signs of madness. You had to imagine how exactly he got to that point.

[Macros]

I think it would be better if who killed Asmodean remained a secret forever.
That way, the few who are proud of knowing won't be upset when they realise that no-one else really gives a shit

[Terez]

Macros, on 27 November 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

I think it would be better if who killed Asmodean remained a secret forever.
That way, the few who are proud of knowing won't be upset when they realise that no-one else really gives a shit

Oh, there were always more than a few who cared. I was personally a member of the apathy faction, but we were sorely outnumbered. It wasn't because we were a theory site either, because random non-web fans asked about it at book signings all the time.

The bit in the notes is funny for all sorts of reasons. And it involves another theory that damn near everyone cared about...

[Illuyankas]

I meant Dumbledore moment as in a revelation outside of the books that doesn't really add much more than controversy, no matter how well meaning.

[Terez]

It's actually not even canon. RJ's notes are full of plot ideas and such that he discarded as he went on.

[Andorion]

You mean, RJ might have published the answer but BS didn't?

[Andorion]

Briar King, on 29 November 2014 - 04:37 AM, said:

You can see now that if she had known this thread was here it would ev been twice or thrice as long as it is now and you would've been way more clued in then what we gave back to you.

Umm yeah. I could have cleared up a few things that confused me. Like for instance why does nothing happen in Crossroads of Twilight??

[Macros]

I think the fact there's such a thing as an apathy faction says all we need to know about asmodeans death.
It doesn't matter, as relevant a detail as how many layers were in elaynes coronation gown

[Andorion]

The thing is that when you reacha certain stage in WoT, around book 10 you stop caring. Who belongs to which faction, who likes who, who is betraying who. It just seems like so much fluff. And of course the dresses. And the hair.

[Maark Abbott]

I did this as my last series - it took me fourteen months. I never found it particularly grindy, and in fact the final book I couldn't put down. I very nearly threw the book across the room and actually did turn to Twitter to make Sanderson aware that he was a dick for one particular event*. I've never experienced that with fiction before. Might be that Jordan always intended it, but Sanderson is masterful with climaxes and conclusions. I would go as far as to say it's one of my favourite sets of books. Doubtless my cousin Kez would agree as she got me into them. No idea if she might be on here, but she's in the group for the Facebook page of this forum.

And yes, when I say I did it, I mean that. I read NOTHING else in between. Just the Roulade of Vinney. It's cheese in the way that Sabaton are cheese - you partake of the cheddar willingly.

Spoiler

*Egwene :'(

[Terez]

Briar King, on 29 November 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

The thing your talking about with the Asmo note.. Is it something we would ev possibly seen had it been RJ finish vs BS? You said it was a note among lots of other notes so I'm just curious with my question trying to know if BS kInda to pick and choose what made it from them.

RJ is the one who discarded this detail. It's only interesting because it shows what RJ was thinking when he actually wrote Asmodean's death (and for a book or two after, before he changed his mind). But it's the connection to the other theory I mentioned that makes it really interesting. The connection to Asmodean just makes it hilarious.

I will spill this detail because it gives important context to the type of job that Brandon found himself saddled with in 2008. Brandon made several choices, some of which went against RJ's notes. But he felt confident doing so because RJ himself went against RJ's notes. We'll learn more about Brandon's choices as the years go on, so IMO it's good to know something about RJ's choices first.

Andorion, on 29 November 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

Briar King, on 29 November 2014 - 04:37 AM, said:

You can see now that if she had known this thread was here it would ev been twice or thrice as long as it is now and you would've been way more clued in then what we gave back to you.

Umm yeah. I could have cleared up a few things that confused me. Like for instance why does nothing happen in Crossroads of Twilight??

Plenty happens in COT. Most people who have the luxury of reading straight through it without having to wait 2-3 years for it (and another 2-3 for the next book) don't even notice it's a relatively slow book. Many people who had to wait were bothered by it, and of course, those who are warned about it from people who had to wait are also bothered by it. Very interesting phenomenon, as Maark demonstrates. I always cringe when someone starts reading the series and the forum-goers all pile on to warn the reader that the "middle" books will be slow. Without that, you might have zipped through COT without any problems.

I personally only had to wait a year or so for COT, and I didn't discover the forums until late 2004, so I never knew it was a bad book until people told me. I liked the cliffhanger ending; it seemed to me very much an "eye of the storm" type book to set up the downhill slide to the ending, and that's exactly what it was.

Of course, my relationship with COT might stem from the fact that I am a born skimmer. RJ's descriptions about surroundings and dresses never bothered me because I skimmed right over them and on to the interesting stuff. It's why I had to reread the series several times to be able to hang with the experts at Theoryland; RJ likes to bury important details in all that fluff.

But if you think COT is bad, try reading Charles Dickens, one of RJ's favorite writers. Dickens' whole career is COT-type writing, except less interesting stuff happens. My skimming skills don't work on Dickens because there is nothing interesting to skim to. Yet he is regarded as one of the most important writers in American history. Go figure.

Macros, on 29 November 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

I think the fact there's such a thing as an apathy faction says all we need to know about asmodeans death.
It doesn't matter, as relevant a detail as how many layers were in elaynes coronation gown

It's slightly more relevant than that, but I agree, it's not that important. What always made me apathetic about it is that it was pretty obvious one of the other Forsaken killed him, which is just boring. I avoided Asmodean debates for years but when I jumped in toward the end there I was arguing that Aviendha did it, not because I really believed it (I actually told Brandon this in 2010 before it was revealed who did it) but because I found it more interesting for Aviendha to have done it. And I found all sorts of "clues" to work with in those debates.

[Andorion]

Quote

Plenty happens in COT. Most people who have the luxury of reading straight through it without having to wait 2-3 years for it (and another 2-3 for the next book) don't even notice it's a relatively slow book. Many people who had to wait were bothered by it, and of course, those who are warned about it from people who had to wait are also bothered by it. Very interesting phenomenon, as Maark demonstrates. I always cringe when someone starts reading the series and the forum-goers all pile on to warn the reader that the "middle" books will be slow. Without that, you might have zipped through COT without any problems.

I personally only had to wait a year or so for COT, and I didn't discover the forums until late 2004, so I never knew it was a bad book until people told me. I liked the cliffhanger ending; it seemed to me very much an "eye of the storm" type book to set up the downhill slide to the ending, and that's exactly what it was.

Of course, my relationship with COT might stem from the fact that I am a born skimmer. RJ's descriptions about surroundings and dresses never bothered me because I skimmed right over them and on to the interesting stuff. It's why I had to reread the series several times to be able to hang with the experts at Theoryland; RJ likes to bury important details in all that fluff.

But if you think COT is bad, try reading Charles Dickens, one of RJ's favorite writers. Dickens' whole career is COT-type writing, except less interesting stuff happens. My skimming skills don't work on Dickens because there is nothing interesting to skim to. Yet he is regarded as one of the most important writers in American history. Go figure.

I actually didn't take very long to finish CoT. It was just that of all the storylines pursued, only one matured. (In a cliffhanger) Time wasn't the issue ofr me. My issue was that if you are going to write a set up book, why fill it full of unnecessary stuff - an entire page on how to do laundry with vinegar for example.

I can't stand Dickens. Simply can't stand him. Awful verbose writing where absolutely nothing happens.

[Maark Abbott]

I'm not sure what I demonstrated, but go me! \o/

[Terez]

Only got through TFOH for this post.

acesn8s, on 23 September 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Andorion, on 21 September 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

Moiraine's rediscovery of Balefire struck me as just a bit too convenient and once more a Forsaken went out just that bit too easily. I understand Balefire is pretty much unstoppable, but I am pretty sure the heroes in the Age of Legends knew how to use it. The Forsaken survived them just fine.

If I remember correctly, the weave for Balefire is known but most Aes Sedai aren't strong enough in the power to weave it.

We still don't know how exactly Moiraine learned balefire. Some think she might have learned it from a book. And I haven't seen anything about it in the notes, either, but I have only skimmed them. I will give them a more serious read later when I get the bulk of my Chopin work behind me. (I'm working on a complete online edition of Chopin's correspondence in English.)

Andorion, on 25 September 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

One question: does Nynaeves victory over the Forsaken show she is actually equal in terms of raw power? Just having trouble believing that. Egeanin was interesting, though I thought they trusted her too easily.

RJ put a good bit of detail about relative channeling strength in his notes. A lot of this will be in the coming encyclopedia. Nynaeve's potential is a lot higher than Moghedien's, and she hadn't even reached her potential at the end of the series, nor had Elayne and Aviendha. Egwene reached her full potential about mid-series, mostly due to her forcing at the hands of the Seanchan in TGH.

Andorion, on 25 September 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

The scope of things greatly increased in this book and I think this where RJ decided to shift from a short series to an enormous one.

Yes, exactly. Books 4-6 are IMO the best of the entire series. Some have argued that RJ didn't juggle it as well as he could have in the following books, but that's because he almost died on the LOC tour and his wife/editor told him he needed to stop working 12-hour days and 7-day weeks. The books got shorter and took longer to come out. If books 7-11 had been 3 books instead of 5 (minus a few bits on the edges that might have gone in LOC and AMOL~), they might have been as good as 4-6.

Andorion, on 26 September 2014 - 02:32 AM, said:

Few chapters into Fires of Heaven. One thing is bothering me, not just in this book, but this is a running theme through all the books I have read. Its the way RJ depicts his female characters. Practically in any/every chapter featuring Nynaeve/Elaine/Egwene/Aviendha and sometimes Moiraine, and from the 4th book Min, Siuian, Leane, one or more of the women will turn up nude/spend some time nude OR there will be references, discussion to tight-fitting, figure-hugging, revealing dresses. Sometimes this is necessary as per the plot, like Leane and Gareth Bryne (I am pretty sure one element of that scene found its way into a BBC Sherlock episode) But most of the time it feels gratuitous, unnecessary and irritating. I don't know if this is just a personal quirk I have, or is this a general problem. Would appreciate some comments from those who have already read the series.

amphibian, on 26 September 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

She's been on a bit of a hiatus for a while, but we have a member on here, Terez, who is not only the world's 4th biggest WoT fan, but is incredibly nice, patient and fully understanding of other people's perspective on it.If she looks in, she may comment in this thread and be prepared for some serious thoroughness.Anyways, she let me know that the women thing is a little bit of RJ's wish fulfillment getting onto the page. He was monogamous (and his wife his main editor), but probably had strong fantasies about a few more women being permanently in his life.

I had no idea that I had been discussed so much in this thread when I began. Yes, wish fulfillment. RJ was sex-obsessed, but in a sort of benign way because he loved his wife very much. I was involved in some epic discussions about sexuality in WoT with Brandon on Twitter, this one (which also featured Luckers from Dragonmount) being the most important. Read it, but for now, a fun and somewhat representative RJ quote:

RJ said:

INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996
ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

QUESTION
How do you get your ideas?

ROBERT JORDAN
I opened the closet one day and found three young women, diaphanously clad who had made themselves at home. They had hung up needle point embroidery and otherwise furnished the closet. I had a discipline stick available and beat them. Now, every day, they hand me a list of ten ideas.

QUESTION
Have you been arrested for muse abuse?

ROBERT JORDAN
They refuse to testify.

Andorion, on 26 September 2014 - 02:32 AM, said:

Also how did Couladin get the Dragon marks if he did not enter Rhuidean? even if he did, he isn't the Dragon Reborn, so how??

Briar King, on 26 September 2014 - 02:57 AM, said:

I thought this was stated in bk 4 but it maybe later in bk 5 in regards to the tats. So maybe a spoiler but it's not major.

If I remember correctly I thought it said Asmodean and Lanfear gave Couldin the tats. Then again that may not be fact and thus no help at all lol.

Not Asmodean and Lanfear; just Asmodean.

Andorion, on 29 September 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

26 chapters into Fires of Heaven and I am increasingly leaning towards the conclusion that the Aes Sedai as an instution is broken/seriously ineffective. They know the Last Battle will happen, even Elaida accepts Rand as the Dragon and all they can indulge in is petty politics.

In other words, kind of like institutions of power in the real world.

Andorion, on 01 October 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

47 chapters into Fires of Heaven.

1. The Battle: It was a bit disappointing honestly. I loved Mat's bits, and the setup with the tower with Rand and Egwene and Eviendha channelling reminded me very strongly of the sorcery enfilade at Pale in GotM. But I really wanted some good large-scale yet detailed battle-narratives.I was really missing SE's touch like the battle scenes in DG, RG, DoD TCG or even ICE in RotCG.

I loved this battle personally. Brandon often says that the difference between his battles and RJ's battles is that RJ had actually been in battles. He was a Vietnam vet, and he wrote battles in the Fog of War style because to him, that was the reality of battle.

Andorion, on 01 October 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

2. Character progression: I just finished Chapter 46, where Rand meets the Cairhinien and Tairen Lords and basically throws them all off balance. He seems to be pretty skilled in politics. But this is what I have a problem with. Uptil the end of the second book Rand was ignorant and pretty naive. Now he is playing the Game of Houses with the best. In the gap between these two points he hardly showed up in The Dragon Reborn, spent the first part of Shaow Rising yelling at Tairens and the second part, and the first part of Fires of Heaven with the Aiel in the Waste. In practical terms he should be a political amateur. So where is this coming from?

Lews Therin. Same with the sword skill. It may have a TV Tropes page, but at least RJ had an explanation for the phenomenon, and also a balance. In other words, Lews Therin's memories (though still mostly under the radar at this point) are a convenient boon to the hero of the story, so Rand has to pay a price for them: his sanity.

Andorion, on 02 October 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Finished Fires of Heaven.

I knew Moiraine was going to die the second she started handing out letters. What I was anticipating was that she would die in the raid, so the entire Lanfear thing was quite a shock. However that entire falling through a doorway thing is very shifty and my policy in high fantasy has always been to never trust a death unless I can see a body. This lesson came very early in life thanks to a chap called Gandalf the Grey and White.

Moiraine was always going to be Gandalf. She's Merlin too, and Thom also has bits of Merlin. From RJ's notes: Moiraine was supposed to become Amyrlin at some point when RJ started writing the story. I'm not sure when he ditched that idea, but Moiraine started out as Morgan le Fay.

Andorion, on 01 October 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

The balefire duel between Rand and Rhavin was nice, and Nynaeve finally used the Dreaming for something other than communication. But my main worry is that RJ has basically introduced time-reversal through balefire which has opened up the whole time-travel issue, which is a very bad thing because unless you are careful this stuff just spirals into paradoxmania.

There was a bit of that, but RJ kept it mostly under control. He was a nuclear physicist before he was a writer; he rather liked toying with paradoxes.

Andorion, on 01 October 2014 - 03:14 PM, said:

Who killed Asmodean? My guess is one of the Forsaken.

See? Obvious, and boring. RJ said he was always surprised that people cared so much about this question.

Grief, on 02 October 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

Also, if you go back through this forum you can probably find several different essays by Terez about Asmodean written at various points...

Probably arguing how Aviendha killed him.