[Terez]

And because I exceeded the number of allowed quotes:

Andorion, on 02 October 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

Grief, on 02 October 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

Andorion, on 30 September 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

Elayne who is princess and heir to Andor, Aes Sedai in training and an exceptionally good one at that (She casually mentions she can make Ter'angreal when absolutely no one has been able to do that since the Breaking)

There's pretty hefty magic inflation throughout the books. Every time he wants to emphasise how great someone is, they're doing something no one could before...and then the next time around, the next person needs to do something even more ridiculous, etc. Likewise, people easily defeating people built up as incredibly powerful, to show how great they are, for whatever particular effect he's going for at a given moment.I'm sure there's a TVtropes page dedicated to it.

Dragonball Z

I <3 DBZ. Aside from the terrible animation and ridiculous power-increasing issues, it had a good backstory. It was an off-the-cuff backstory, since the creator whose name I've forgotten didn't plan on keeping Vegeta around for long, until the fans insisted. But Vegeta made it interesting.

Abyss, on 29 September 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Andorion, on 29 September 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Do people always use "View New Content"? I found out about it last month. And I found out how to change skins last week.
I know.... I know ..... I know.... Luddite

The New Content button gives you everything posted since the last time you were on the site. Otherwise you have to check subforum by subforum with dates and times and too much effort. Also... Luddite.

I don't even use that on boards where I read everything. On this board, I am subscribed to RJ/BS, GRRM (or at least the GOT thread), and Discussions. I get an email whenever there is a new thread, and if something interests me I will subscribe to the thread. I think I was terribly busy when this thread was started, because I only have a vague memory of getting an email, and thinking I didn't have time for it.

Maark, on 29 November 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

I'm not sure what I demonstrated, but go me! \o/

Just that the uninitiated rarely have issues with COT. You probably don't even remember what specifically happened in COT because when you read it all at once, it's just one long story.

Andorion, on 29 November 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

I actually didn't take very long to finish CoT.

No harm done then.

Andorion, on 29 November 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

I can't stand Dickens. Simply can't stand him. Awful verbose writing where absolutely nothing happens.

On that, we can agree! I have never understood the appeal of Dickens, but I understand how he came about. In the course of my Chopin studies I have to pay a lot of attention to George Sand, and she was a writer in the same general mold as Dickens: they wrote in installments and they were paid roughly by the word. They wrote everything longhand, which made it more difficult to revise, and they weren't so much worried about writing good stories as they were about writing something for the latest installment so they could get paid. I understand Sand's appeal; she was something of a protofeminist and the primary readers of her work were women. But Dickens? I don't get it.

[Terez]

Through TPOD:

Andorion, on 05 October 2014 - 02:59 AM, said:

About 6 chapters into Lord of Chaos and nothing seems to be happening. After an intriguing beginning with Demandred in the Pit of Doom, the story just flattens. Its basically Rand Travelling around and Mat dancing. In great detail. I really could have done without that dance. This is one problem of RJs that seems to be getting amplified.... the time he takes to get a book going. Even Sammael and Graendals conversation was boring.

The dance thing is one of the more loved scenes in the entire series. It's Maria Simons' favorite chapter. (RJ's assistant.)

Andorion, on 07 October 2014 - 03:59 AM, said:

BTW was RJ closet BDSM? All that collar and leash thing with Moghedien, that dream scene when the Aes Sedai get tortured by Trollocs (I mean the Trollocs are cannibalistic ravagers. Why the hell would they do torture when they can kill and eat?) the repeated and emphasised references to 'switching' and 'whipping'...

I hadn't yet read this post when I posted the RJ quote about where he gets his ideas. But it's appropriate. This also features in the discussion we had with Brandon about sexuality in WoT.

Andorion, on 13 October 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

2. Rand finally moves against Sammael, but is he really dead? The whole thing seemed kind of dodgy to me. Also if Shadar Logoth kills a Forsaken can the Dark Lord bring him back?

No, because Mashadar corrupted Sammael's thread. I think the fake Sammael mentioned in KOD was an illusion created by Fain, who had absorbed Mashadar. As we saw in TEOTW, Mashadar retains some echo of the people it kills. And Fain was able to create an illusion of people he had killed when he met Rand in Far Madding (Winter's Heart).

amphibian, on 13 October 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Andorion, on 13 October 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

When exactly did he fall ill? This is book 7, and he kept on going till book 11. As for the weird detail thing, I have seen that done a lot, and this really was not a good execution of that particular device.

He made public his diagnosis of the misshapen blood protein disease in 2006, but my opinion is that he was definitely not right for a while beforehand. It has a whole range of effects from Alzheimer's-like effects to what actually killed him - thickening of his heart walls.

http://www.locusmag....rdanLetter.html

It's kind of shitty for me to 1) sum up his writing transformation through his decades writing as "mostly not trending upwards in quality" and 2) to blame the transformation on something other than his own authorial desires, but with this particular case, I think his declining health had at least a partial effect.

He wasn't diagnosed with amyloidosis until 2006, but the first mentions of his health failing were on the LOC book tour, and he specifically said at the time that he had to cut back on his writing hours due to his health.

Andorion, on 16 October 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

7 chapters in. I am surprised. After that strange beginning things moved pretty fast.

I like the new, assertive Elaine who is turning out to be a natural leader. The post-marriage flustered Nynaeve is also a nice change and her byplay with Alise was extremely funny. Really liked Aviendha first opening a portal and then dissolving the weaving like it was nothing and apparently no Aes Sedai has ever dared to do this. More rude surprises for the Sedai. The part with Elaine and the portal wasx instructive and sobering though.

I love that you enjoyed these chapters, because they are among the most hated in the series.

Andorion, on 19 October 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

Did not get that scene in Caemlyn with Hanlon and a captive Aes Sedai. Am I supposed to know these people?

The captive Aes Sedai was one of Liandrin's 13. Lady Shiaine showed up early in the series as Mili Skane.

[Maark Abbott]

The main thing that I remember happening:

Perrin brooded
Mat was cheeky
Rand was all serious
All the ladies smoothed their skirts

Just for clarificaiton though: was CoT the one where Mat tied the knot? I tend to think of the books in terms of the number in the sequence as opposed to the actual title.

[Terez]

That was KOD (11), when they finally tied the knot. COT (10) had a lot of good build-up to that moment, though. Mat's chapters in COT were particularly enjoyable, and Egwene's, and Elayne's, etc. The problem most people have with COT is: 1) relative lack of Rand (see my comments on TDR earlier), 2) Perrin's plotline not being resolved, and 3) general lack of end-of-book climax/resolution. The resolution of Faile's plotline would have redeemed the book for most people, but RJ clearly wasn't ready for it.

[D'iversify]

Terez, on 29 November 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Andorion, on 16 October 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

7 chapters in. I am surprised. After that strange beginning things moved pretty fast.

I like the new, assertive Elaine who is turning out to be a natural leader. The post-marriage flustered Nynaeve is also a nice change and her byplay with Alise was extremely funny. Really liked Aviendha first opening a portal and then dissolving the weaving like it was nothing and apparently no Aes Sedai has ever dared to do this. More rude surprises for the Sedai. The part with Elaine and the portal wasx instructive and sobering though.

I love that you enjoyed these chapters, because they are among the most hated in the series.

Remind me what was the deal with the hate for these chapters (read them a LONNNNGGG time ago).

[Maark Abbott]

Terez, on 29 November 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

That was KOD (11), when they finally tied the knot. COT (10) had a lot of good build-up to that moment, though. Mat's chapters in COT were particularly enjoyable, and Egwene's, and Elayne's, etc. The problem most people have with COT is: 1) relative lack of Rand (see my comments on TDR earlier), 2) Perrin's plotline not being resolved, and 3) general lack of end-of-book climax/resolution. The resolution of Faile's plotline would have redeemed the book for most people, but RJ clearly wasn't ready for it.

Ah, yes... To be honest, I didn't find the lack of Rand particularly distressing, but then I read the BOTF waaaaaay before WOT, so I was used to story arcs that didn't involve certaincharacters. I think Perrin's plotline could have been stronger perhaps, considering he spent most of it in an ultrabrood, but as you say, the time wasn't right.

Again, a lack of resolution isn't much of a deterrent to me, but then I've grown up in the era of sequels on TV / film / videogame where it's almost always a buggering cliffhanger.

[Terez]

D'iversify, it was mainly the long trek from Ebou Dar to the Kin's farm, and the little squabbles over Ispan and who should guard her and question her. People tend to view TPOD through the lens of those few chapters with all the women, because people read them and think "we could be reading about Mat".

I tend to view TPOD through the lens of the Rand and Egwene chapters. Good stuff. Also the prologue was amazing, though Andorian apparently thought it was weird.

[Terez]

It occurred to me just now as I was driving down the street that Dickens was English. American, English, whatever. He was boring.

[Terez]

Through KOD.

Andorion, on 23 October 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

14 chapters in, and well....

Rand finally goes full polygamous on us, when he achieves his dream of getting Min, Aviendha and Elayne in the same room. Of course they all bond him, though I am abit hazy on how Min could do that seeing as she doesn't have the One Power.

Elayne and Aviendha included her in the weave. Elayne figured out how to do that by combining the Warder bond with the sister-bonding ceremony, where first-sisters are granted a sort of bond even if they can't channel.

Andorion, on 23 October 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

My other main beef with RJ, and though this came through Nynaeve trying to teach the sea Folk, but its a pretty general beef:
In RJs world trust and co-operation are foreign words. The Aes Sedai, the Wise Ones,the Sea Folk, the Kin are all jealous and hostile of each other, and can only think how to subdue the other to ones authority and then humiliate them and dominate them. Relations are either hostile on equal levels, then equality breaks down and its domination/submission. All the characters come across as extraordinarily petty and narrow minded. Most conflicts are solved with one party exerting greater strength and having the other party beaten or made to do labour. No middle ground, no sense of give-and-take. And this same dynamic is steadily reflected in the internal dealings of each group as well. This is extraordinary especailly because its all happening in the era of the Dragon Reborn. His very existence proves Tarmon Gaidon is close, it can happen any day, week, month, or year. That battle decides whether these groups will even have a future. But instead of working together, compromising, making alliances, all I get is conflict, conflict, conflict. Moiraine was one of the few characters trying to get things done. Rand tries to force people to work together, but drives them apart more often than not. In spite of everything thats been said upthread about the problems of the Seanchan, I think that there formal existnce as a centralised, unified army gives them a big advantage over the faction-divided defenders.

On your last point, I think RJ was trying to show the pros and the cons of these diverse, relatively free monarchies vs the well-oiled machine of the Seanchan authoritarian bureaucracy. And he apparently never intended to resolve that issue, or cause one to decisively win over the other. On the rest, I agree with what Abyss said way back about this sort of willful blindness and stubbornness and lack of trust being incredibly realistic. It's intended to contrast the stories where everyone falls in line behind the hero, except for the evil people. WoT has evil people, but it also has plenty of people with more mundane flaws. Take, for example, the world's response to the threat of climate change. I think RJ was probably pretty conservative in his politics, but he commented on that issue.

Andorion, on 23 October 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

I am now 100% certain that Moridin is Ishamael.

Took you long enough.

Unspoilered:

Illuyankas, on 24 October 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Please remember that book 11 is much more a return to form. Also read this spoiler once you're finished and see if it conflicts with your impression of the book:

Everyone no one cares about reacts to the end of book 9, and then Egwene gets kidnapped like a dumbass. Mat does a little stuff that's alright. NOTHING ELSE HAPPENS AT ALL, FUCKING NOTHING, A WASTE OF A BOOK AND YOUR MONEY AND MORE IMPORTANTLY MY MONEY

One of the things I loved about COT was the reactions to the Cleansing. It wasn't people no one cares about; it was Elayne and Aviendha, Egwene and the Aes Sedai, Perrin and his Wise Ones and Aes Sedai and Asha'man, the Wise Ones around Faile...it was everyone. I always felt that was appropriate because it was such a monumental event; I wanted to see it through everyone else's eyes before I even read it. And for the record, the Cleansing finally ended on p. 357 of the hardback. Not a difficult number to remember.

Andorion, on 29 October 2014 - 04:32 AM, said:

Suroth is a Darkfriend. Huh!

That was actually made fairly clear when Liandrin met her way back in book 2. And again in her POV in TSR.

Andorion, on 30 October 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

What is the deal with rearranged corridoors? The Dark ones touch means every building turns into Hogwarts? Seems a bit petty to me.

It's the balefire paradox.

Andorion, on 30 October 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

Rand: The coolest storyline, simply because of the gigantic battle. Thousands of trollocs, loads of Fades, and the Dragon Reborn unleashed. Now thats what I am talking about! It also answered a problem I have had for a pretty long time, i.e. how come Rand knows so much about the power in so short a time. Answer: He doesn't. Lewis Therin takes iver and kicksserious ass, also showing the necessity of skill and experience with power. Now if he had done this against the Seanchan, they would have been annihilated.

Lews Therin doesn't have to "take over"; this is just Rand's batshit crazy way of imagining how things should be. He could just remember how to use the weaves himself, but he doesn't like doing that because it requires him to drop the wall he has constructed between himself and Lews Therin. In fact, he probably used the same weave against the Seanchan that Lews Therin used when he killed Ilyena and everyone else he knew. And Rand did the same thing with a twist at the end of TDR when he killed all of the Shadowspawn in the Stone (again with Callandor).

Andorion, on 30 October 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

The epilogue seemed to suggest that Taim has totally gone over to the dark side. I knew Taim had betrayed Rand, but now it seems he follows Demandred.

I am amused that you never wondered if Demandred was Taim. Someone else was "waiting for it" earlier in the thread, and it never came.

Illuyankas, on 30 October 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

You'll notice a level of weirdness to Mat in The Gathering Storm, but he fixes that for Towers of Midnight and A Memory of Light so no need to panic.

This is kind of like RJ's middle books. I hope that you guys will consider, in the case of possible future readthrough threads like this one, 1) not bashing COT or the middle books aside from the vaguest warnings that things slow down a little, and 2) not warning people about tone changes in the Brandon books. I know many people who barely noticed the style differences, and they were happier for it. Of course, someone who has read RJ's books several times before reading Brandon's books will not be able to ignore the differences, but that type of person is rare these days.

Speaking of the Brandon books, I might not have as much to say about those. We will see. My feelings are more nuanced in those books.

[Maark Abbott]

Terez, on 29 November 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

It occurred to me just now as I was driving down the street that Dickens was English. American, English, whatever. He was boring.

I was going to point that out. And yes, he is.

[HiddenOne]

The fact that there is prominent Dickens disrespect in a Wheel of Time thread on a Literary based forum populated by 'smart' people is so ironic that I can't even find a fitting metaphor and will now retire

[Terez]

To each his own. But perhaps you could explain what's good about him? No one has ever explained that to me before...

My personal experience: I haven't even tried to read Dickens since I was about 14 years old. We were assigned Great Expectations for my English class, and we had a condensed version in our textbook. Me, being a voracious reader who had never been unable to finish a book, I naturally went to the library and checked out the full version. BIG mistake. I have never been so bored in my life.

[Grief]

Terez, on 29 November 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

To each his own. But perhaps you could explain what's good about him? No one has ever explained that to me before...

My personal experience: I haven't even tried to read Dickens since I was about 14 years old. We were assigned Great Expectations for my English class, and we had a condensed version in our textbook. Me, being a voracious reader who had never been unable to finish a book, I naturally went to the library and checked out the full version. BIG mistake. I have never been so bored in my life.

I never enjoyed Dickens much either (though Bleak House wasn't bad). I did find that it helps to remember that it was written to be published in serial though. It helps to explain the 2-dimensionality/cariacature nature of his characters people often complain about (i.e, it's hard to imagine what Joe Gargary does when he's not at the forge or interacting with his wife/Pip), as it can be seen as a device to help his readers instantly reconnect with the story.

[Andorion]

HiddenOne, on 29 November 2014 - 04:47 PM, said:

The fact that there is prominent Dickens disrespect in a Wheel of Time thread on a Literary based forum populated by 'smart' people is so ironic that I can't even find a fitting metaphor and will now retire

Terez, on 29 November 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

To each his own. But perhaps you could explain what's good about him? No one has ever explained that to me before...

My personal experience: I haven't even tried to read Dickens since I was about 14 years old. We were assigned Great Expectations for my English class, and we had a condensed version in our textbook. Me, being a voracious reader who had never been unable to finish a book, I naturally went to the library and checked out the full version. BIG mistake. I have never been so bored in my life.

Grief, on 29 November 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

Terez, on 29 November 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

To each his own. But perhaps you could explain what's good about him? No one has ever explained that to me before...

My personal experience: I haven't even tried to read Dickens since I was about 14 years old. We were assigned Great Expectations for my English class, and we had a condensed version in our textbook. Me, being a voracious reader who had never been unable to finish a book, I naturally went to the library and checked out the full version. BIG mistake. I have never been so bored in my life.

I never enjoyed Dickens much either (though Bleak House wasn't bad). I did find that it helps to remember that it was written to be published in serial though. It helps to explain the 2-dimensionality/cariacature nature of his characters people often complain about (i.e, it's hard to imagine what Joe Gargary does when he's not at the forge or interacting with his wife/Pip), as it can be seen as a device to help his readers instantly reconnect with the story.

I read Great Expectations, David Copperfield, and A Christmas Carol. I started, read about 75% but could not finish Oliver Twist. The only one I liked was Christmas Carol. Later, I thought that I disliked Dickens as I was young at the time 13-14, so I picked up Oliver Twist again only to find I hate it more now. I even picked up a collection of Ghost Stories by Victorian authors on a friends reco and tried to read Dickens' contribution. Same problem. Just couldn't read it.
But then again I like very few of the "classical" Victorian authors and my opinions on them have gotten me a lot of flak from some friends who swear by Austen and Dickens. Funnily enough I loved the poetry. The Romantics are my favourite group and I love Tennyson.

[Andorion]

Terez, thanks a heap for reading through my posts and taking the trouble to give such detailed replies. I understood quite a few things which were niggling away in my mind.

I think a clarification regarding my thoughts on CoT are in order, as looking back, I may have been a bit incoherent about a few issues.

Firstly, I had no problems with all the various PoVs about reactions to the Cleansing. In fact I wanted more reactions. In terms of the fantasy world, this is an epochal event, something that changes the fundamental nature of existence, and affects everybody. It is natural that there would be huge reactions.

Secondly, I noticed recently in a couple of reviews that the area after Nynaeve has married Lan catches a lot of flak. I would beg to differ. Lan's behaviour at this time is perfectly in character. He is chivalrous and caring, and so in public he defers to Nynaeve. This does not constitute any loss of masculinity on his part. And as I always like a bit of comedy and banter(something this series needed more of) I found this area hilarious. In fact the equal and mutually independent yet respectful status of their relation is demonstrated extremely well in the later books.

Thirdly, my principal problem with this book was Perrin. His storyline should have been resolved, or at the very least progressed.

The middle books are slow, but one reason I think I reacted negatively to CoT was becasue WH had an absolutely awesome ending and the change of pace was hard to take.

Let me know what you think of the posts on the last four books.

[Terez]

That would be the last 3, since I made it through KOD. Unless you also reviewed New Spring? Anyway, I get the frustration on the Perrin plotline in COT, but IMO his ending in "What Must Be Done" was pretty awesome, possibly one of the most powerful Perrin moments in the entire series. Hence the wonderful ebook cover. I also happened to find the writing of the early Perrin chapters in that book to be really powerful, with the long-unfolding forge metaphor, how his experiences with Faile were forging him into the person he needed to be for the Last Battle. I honestly think that "So Habor" was the only low point in Perrin's story in that book, lack of resolution aside. I see what RJ was trying to do there; he was trying to show both the issues with supplying an army while all the food was rotting, and also the increasing deterioration of reality with the ghosts. But winnowing weevils on the riverbank was a bit much for even me.

I respect your opinion of the book well enough; I just tend to think that the thread denizens probably made it worse for you by telling you it was bad, rather than encouraging you to look at it as the first half of book 11. Because when you're reading straight through, that's pretty much what it amounts to.

[Andorion]

Terez, on 29 November 2014 - 06:15 PM, said:

That would be the last 3, since I made it through KOD. Unless you also reviewed New Spring? Anyway, I get the frustration on the Perrin plotline in COT, but IMO his ending in "What Must Be Done" was pretty awesome, possibly one of the most powerful Perrin moments in the entire series. Hence the wonderful ebook cover. I also happened to find the writing of the early Perrin chapters in that book to be really powerful, with the long-unfolding forge metaphor, how his experiences with Faile were forging him into the person he needed to be for the Last Battle. I honestly think that "So Habor" was the only low point in Perrin's story in that book, lack of resolution aside. I see what RJ was trying to do there; he was trying to show both the issues with supplying an army while all the food was rotting, and also the increasing deterioration of reality with the ghosts. But winnowing weevils on the riverbank was a bit much for even me.

I respect your opinion of the book well enough; I just tend to think that the thread denizens probably made it worse for you by telling you it was bad, rather than encouraging you to look at it as the first half of book 11. Because when you're reading straight through, that's pretty much what it amounts to.

Actually I did wonder if I could treat it as analogous to DoD-TCG in Malazan, as nothing gets resolved in DoD and it ends on a cliffhanger, but well there were the pages of inane stuff, specially the laundry. To this day I do not understand why RJ thought it necessary to give laundry decriptions of a low tech society in such detail in the middle of an escape plot.

As for Perrin, I really liked him in the early books, and again in the last few books. I thought he prevaricated too much with regards to leadership.

I did review New Spring, but that was only a para, in my very first or second post. I read it before Eye of the World.

The other forumgoers were actually a bit of a help. Without Briar King I dont think I would have finished amd we had a nice big debate on military invasions and logistics. And the predictions were not all negative. I originally raised the question of a WoT read-through in July I think and the ensuing debate was actually split so badly it made it difficult to decide. One group disliked the books, another loved the books and some were ambivalent but felt I should read it anyway as its a fantasy landmark

[Terez]

I read through all the posts on the last 3 books and I don't really have anything to add. There weren't many questions; just comments about what happened and whether or not you liked it. When it comes to stuff like that on the last 3 books, I am kind of tired of offering my opinions, which obviously has nothing to do with you and more to do with past experiences. But if you have any lingering questions, here I am.

[Andorion]

Terez, on 30 November 2014 - 02:40 AM, said:

I read through all the posts on the last 3 books and I don't really have anything to add. There weren't many questions; just comments about what happened and whether or not you liked it. When it comes to stuff like that on the last 3 books, I am kind of tired of offering my opinions, which obviously has nothing to do with you and more to do with past experiences. But if you have any lingering questions, here I am.

One thought I had after the final book: The Dark One is initially presented as a sort of Dark counterpart to the Creator. Present from creation, but sealed away etc. But after reading Rands battle with him, my own impression was more like he was a creature from another dimension/universe who was interfering through a hole in the fabric of reality. I was wondering if there had been any discussion regarding this.

[Maark Abbott]

Andorion, on 30 November 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

Terez, on 30 November 2014 - 02:40 AM, said:

I read through all the posts on the last 3 books and I don't really have anything to add. There weren't many questions; just comments about what happened and whether or not you liked it. When it comes to stuff like that on the last 3 books, I am kind of tired of offering my opinions, which obviously has nothing to do with you and more to do with past experiences. But if you have any lingering questions, here I am.

One thought I had after the final book: The Dark One is initially presented as a sort of Dark counterpart to the Creator. Present from creation, but sealed away etc. But after reading Rands battle with him, my own impression was more like he was a creature from another dimension/universe who was interfering through a hole in the fabric of reality. I was wondering if there had been any discussion regarding this.

I always viewed him/it in a similar vein, although as a deity would be. Sort of like the Reapers in Mass Effect, but without the 'they are coming' threat, more 'they will come IF we don't stop this malarkey'. Or perhaps Tirnoch from KoA, with the whole fate-meddling stuff.