[theocean]

Jethiss shouldve just went and asked The seguleh first for Grief back. Id rather have vengence with two hands than the sword of bones with one.

[buddhacat]

Abyss, on 27 August 2014 - 04:46 AM, said:

Maybe it's Rake's soul in Spin's body.

ObOtherSeries: But he is not short, trying to look taller or thrusting out his chest, is he? Nor ugly looking with mis-matched eyes. Nor an "earthy" woman, nor absent-minded Professorial ....

[blackzoid]

BTW in all the talk of Hust blades, as far ass we are aware they cannot be made anymore. Probably the knowledge is lost as the Hust guys (sorry, don't have FoD handy) are all dead. Draconus though, he did forge Dragnipur after all. He could have forged a new awesome sword I guess.

Mentalist, on 26 August 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

KCCM tend to continue staying isolated and trying to survive in the desert. We were told back in MoI that they were even worse tyrants than the Jaghut, and it's only due to persecutions and the madness of their last Matron that they became all goody-goody. Not to mention they have human champions now--they deffo don't fit the picture of a "major domination world power"

I no longer belief that speech from Silverfox in MOI at all. Especially since Brood of (MoI) seems to think what the T'lan Imass did to the Jaghut was a good thing. Which for an entity that we know now was around during FoD is a terrible misreading of history on his part. Ironic that Kallor was the only one to stand up for the Jaghut in that meeting. If thats a MoI'ism about Broods feelings on the Jaghut then Silverfoxes ventured unsubstantiated opinion can be one too.

Lets put the KCCM=Past Tyrants myth to bed. Aside from that brief mention in MoI, there has never been a shred of proof that the KCCM were tyrants of any kind. (Unless you count their inter-species subjegation of the KCNR.) They killed the Imass for territory. They went to war unsuccessfully against the Tell Aki. They attacked 7 Cities to establish colonies but the Daragoth kicked them out. They got hammered in the Tiste Invasion. They retreat-blitzkrieged through Redmask's people because they were in the way. And a Matron got pretty freaky with some women of the Shore. That was it. They have never ever kept slaves from other species or actually ruled the Jaghut that we know.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 28 August 2014 - 02:24 AM

[theocean]

blackzoid, on 28 August 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

BTW in all the talk of Hust blades, as far ass we are aware they cannot be made anymore. Probably the knowledge is lost as the Hust guys (sorry, don't have FoD handy) are all dead. Draconus though, he did forge Dragnipur after all. He could have forged a new awesome sword I guess.

Mentalist, on 26 August 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

KCCM tend to continue staying isolated and trying to survive in the desert. We were told back in MoI that they were even worse tyrants than the Jaghut, and it's only due to persecutions and the madness of their last Matron that they became all goody-goody. Not to mention they have human champions now--they deffo don't fit the picture of a "major domination world power"

I no longer belief that speech from Silverfox in MOI at all. Especially since Brood of (MoI) seems to think what the T'lan Imass did to the Jaghut was a good thing. Which for an entity that we know now was around during FoD is a terrible misreading of history on his part. Ironic that Kallor was the only one to stand up for the Jaghut in that meeting. If thats a MoI'ism about Broods feelings on the Jaghut then Silverfoxes ventured unsubstantiated opinion can be one too.

Lets put the KCCM=Past Tyrants myth to bed. Aside from that brief mention in MoI, there has never been a shred of proof that the KCCM were tyrants of any kind. (Unless you count their inter-species subjegation of the KCNR.) They killed the Imass for territory. They went to war unsuccessfully against the Tell Aki. They attacked 7 Cities to establish colonies but the Daragoth kicked them out. They got hammered in the Tiste Invasion. They retreat-blitzkrieged through Redmask's people because they were in the way. And a Matron got pretty freaky with some women of the Shore. That was it. They have never ever kept slaves from other species or actually ruled the Jaghut that we know.

How old are the other souls in silverfox? I know she said they had been in the empire long before her, but is it ever mentioned just how long theyve been roaming the world. I just started my first re read and just finished outside of Pale and she mentioned bell was a thelomen. I know Nightchill was an elder of some sort, and she has been around a long time, so i would think Silverfox had actual knowledge at her disposal.

[Andorion]

theocean, on 28 August 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 28 August 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

BTW in all the talk of Hust blades, as far ass we are aware they cannot be made anymore. Probably the knowledge is lost as the Hust guys (sorry, don't have FoD handy) are all dead. Draconus though, he did forge Dragnipur after all. He could have forged a new awesome sword I guess.

Mentalist, on 26 August 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

KCCM tend to continue staying isolated and trying to survive in the desert. We were told back in MoI that they were even worse tyrants than the Jaghut, and it's only due to persecutions and the madness of their last Matron that they became all goody-goody. Not to mention they have human champions now--they deffo don't fit the picture of a "major domination world power"

I no longer belief that speech from Silverfox in MOI at all. Especially since Brood of (MoI) seems to think what the T'lan Imass did to the Jaghut was a good thing. Which for an entity that we know now was around during FoD is a terrible misreading of history on his part. Ironic that Kallor was the only one to stand up for the Jaghut in that meeting. If thats a MoI'ism about Broods feelings on the Jaghut then Silverfoxes ventured unsubstantiated opinion can be one too.

Lets put the KCCM=Past Tyrants myth to bed. Aside from that brief mention in MoI, there has never been a shred of proof that the KCCM were tyrants of any kind. (Unless you count their inter-species subjegation of the KCNR.) They killed the Imass for territory. They went to war unsuccessfully against the Tell Aki. They attacked 7 Cities to establish colonies but the Daragoth kicked them out. They got hammered in the Tiste Invasion. They retreat-blitzkrieged through Redmask's people because they were in the way. And a Matron got pretty freaky with some women of the Shore. That was it. They have never ever kept slaves from other species or actually ruled the Jaghut that we know.

How old are the other souls in silverfox? I know she said they had been in the empire long before her, but is it ever mentioned just how long theyve been roaming the world. I just started my first re read and just finished outside of Pale and she mentioned bell was a thelomen. I know Nightchill was an elder of some sort, and she has been around a long time, so i would think Silverfox had actual knowledge at her disposal.

Since you are on a re-read, Nightchill is an Elder Goddess, which means she was around before the Andii came to Wu. So yeah, Silverfox has a LOT of knowledge

[blackzoid]

Aha, but from FoD we know now that Brood is a defacto Elder God. Yet he saw no problem in cheering on Silverfox's opinions on how awesome it was that the T'lan Imass were protecting everyone by wiping out the Jaghut in MoI. If Brood's knowledge/characterisation can be so drastically changed between books then I don't see why Silverfoxes souls would be messed up in their knowledge of the KCCM. And again, there has never been any other proof of the KCCM being Tyrants otehr then this throw away line. In DoD/TCG when we have the KCCM's inner Pov, it doesn't crop up either.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 28 August 2014 - 01:03 PM

[Cyclorrhapha]

Surprised nobody in this thread mentioned the ice dragon/giant-frost-serpent-thing that briefly appeared in the Sea of Dread (in chapter 1, if I recall correctly).

Thought it was an Omptose Phellack aspected Eleint or possibly a soletaken-jaghut. Just adds more mystery and badassery to an already pretty badass continent as far as I'm concerned.

[Abyss]

blackzoid, on 28 August 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

...
Lets put the KCCM=Past Tyrants myth to bed. Aside from that brief mention in MoI, there has never been a shred of proof that the KCCM were tyrants of any kind. (Unless you count their inter-species subjegation of the KCNR.) They killed the Imass for territory. They went to war unsuccessfully against the Tell Aki. They attacked 7 Cities to establish colonies but the Daragoth kicked them out. They got hammered in the Tiste Invasion. They retreat-blitzkrieged through Redmask's people because they were in the way. And a Matron got pretty freaky with some women of the Shore. That was it. They have never ever kept slaves from other species or actually ruled the Jaghut that we know.

Actually i don't think we can be as absolute as that.

As a starting point, the Matrons didn't all get along... i'm struggling with where the ref is, but that's why they had Sentinels, armies and assassins (among other reasons). In fact one of the purposes of the Shi'gal was to execute their own Matron if she went a little too loopy.

Second, we don't know who started the war when the second Andii/Edur exodus happened. Yes, it could have totally been Scabby Bloodeye, but while we've seen evidence of Jaghut and KC getting along, that could have been one Matron's brood, not all of them, so there may have been assholes among the Matrons who saw the Tiste as invaders.


Finally there's the KN... Matrons brought the KN back it seems to build and use the Moons Spawns as weapons. Doesn't really suggest they did it out of the goodness of their hearts, it was either to strike at the Tiste or other Matrons.

In NoK, the Jaghut Guardian suggests her race shielded humans from the KC. She's likely lying or spinning the truth, but then again, maybe not.

Throw in the way they treat Imass and Awl as food or obstacles to be cut down, and they don't come off looking like nice cuddly dinopeople. Yes, Gunth Mach and the rest we meet in RG and later are trying to be different, but even they were willing to reprogram and use Red Mask, kill to help him, and cut him loose when he didn't work out. And then kidnap some more humans to try again.

[blackzoid]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing with the idea that the KCCM were not nice "dino people". I'm sure many of them were bad. We know many were bad. I'm arguing against the concept that they were "Tyrants" like Raest. There is a meme-like idea that somehow the KCCM ruled the Jaghut as Tyrants ages ago. Thats what people keep bringing up from Silverfoxes brief mention. That has never been substantiated at all. They ate people, they started wars, they had freaky Matrons. They never ruled other races.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 28 August 2014 - 04:42 PM

[Mentalist]

blackzoid, on 28 August 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing with the idea that the KCCM were not nice "dino people". I'm sure many of them were bad. We know many were bad. I'm arguing against the concept that they were "Tyrants" like Raest. There is a meme-like idea that somehow the KCCM ruled the Jaghut as Tyrants ages ago. Thats what people keep bringing up from Silverfoxes brief mention. That has never been substantiated at all. They ate people, they started wars, they had freaky Matrons. They never ruled other races.

There is not a single denial of that, either. We are told, in MT prologue, that KCCM are losing their hegemony, and, iirc, there is a line about how it's due in part to the efforts of the Jaghut as well. It was my understanding that due to their hive-like social structure, The KCCM were always the most expansionist of the original species (The Imass being too weak, the Jaghut too isolationist, the FAs too alien, and the TTT not numerous enough to attempt this).

While it may not be correct to describe them as "tyrants", I have seen nothing to disprove the idea that KCCM were the "dominant" species on Wu prior to their decline. We don't have enough info on the interactions b/w KCCM and early Imass to be certain. If we go back to the "KCCM as the original aliens/"firstborn of dragons" theory", that also brings some interesting connotations into play.

Of course, the Kharkanas trilo is doing wonders to shatter most previous ideas as to teh cosmology of Wu and the various Warrens, but hey, that's part of the fun, no?

[blackzoid]

Mentalist, on 28 August 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

There is not a single denial of that, either. We are told, in MT prologue, that KCCM are losing their hegemony, and, iirc, there is a line about how it's due in part to the efforts of the Jaghut as well.

I've just reread it, I'm afraid there is no part about the Jaghut helping or causing the decline of the KCCM. "They were dying out for a myriad of reasons, none of which concerned the Jaghut (Gothos) overmuch." Thats the quote.

Mentalist, on 28 August 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

It was my understanding that due to their hive-like social structure, The KCCM were always the most expansionist of the original species (The Imass being too weak, the Jaghut too isolationist, the FAs too alien, and the TTT not numerous enough to attempt this).
While it may not be correct to describe them as "tyrants", I have seen nothing to disprove the idea that KCCM were the "dominant" species on Wu prior to their decline. We don't have enough info on the interactions b/w KCCM and early Imass to be certain. If we go back to the "KCCM as the original aliens/"firstborn of dragons" theory", that also brings some interesting connotations into play.
Of course, the Kharkanas trilo is doing wonders to shatter most previous ideas as to teh cosmology of Wu and the various Warrens, but hey, that's part of the fun, no?

This is similiar to Abyss's argument which I have also no problem with. Yes the KCCM could well have been the most dominiont killing machine-race around. No argument there. But they were not Tyrants who enslaved the Jaghut which has been a point of contention ever since Silverfox said it in MOI. They were not Tyrants at all. The KCCM killed the other races to make space to colonise. They didn't rule over them like Raest did with the Imass. Maybe the Kharkanas Trilogy will change this. It certainly changed Brood anyway. Instead of being a character who wasn't aware that most of the Jaghut were innocent and so his approval of Silverfoxes statement in MOI was understandable ignorance, now it makes look somewhat like a dick who should have stood with Kallor in defending the non-Tyrant Jaghut to Silverfox. So, maybe a KCCM ruler of Jaghut could arise, maybe somewhere in the war on death. I don't know.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 28 August 2014 - 08:00 PM

[The Old Guard]

It might also be that we are misinterpreting Brood. I don't recall what he said exactly, but I'm inclined to think that he merely felt sympathy for weaker beings that were being oppressed by Tyrants.

[Andorion]

Quote

‘Perhaps an explanation,’ Dujek said, ‘will assist us in understanding.’
Silverfox gave a sharp nod. ‘When the first Imass emerged, they were forced to live in the shadow of the Jaghut. Tolerated, ignored, but only in small, manageable numbers. Pushed to the poorest of lands. Then Tyrants arose among the Jaghut, who found pleasure in enslaving them, in forcing upon them a nightmarish existence – that successive generations were born into and so knew of no other life, knew nothing of freedom itself.
‘The lesson was hard, not easily swallowed, for the truth was this: there were intelligent beings in the world who exploited the virtues of others, their compassion, their love, their faith in kin. Exploited, and mocked. How many Imass tribes discovered that their gods were in fact Jaghut Tyrants? Hidden behind friendly masks. Tyrants, who manipulated them with the weapon of faith.
‘The rebellion was inevitable, and it was devastating for the Imass. Weaker, uncertain even of what it was they sought, or what freedom would show them should they find it... But we would not relent. We could not.’
Kallor sneered. ‘There were never more than but a handful of Tyrants among the Jaghut, woman.’
‘A handful was too many, and aye, we found allies among the Jaghut – those for whom the activities of the Tyrants were reprehensible. But we now carried scars. Scars born of mistrust, of betrayal. We could trust only in our own kind. In the name of our generations to come, all Jaghut would have to die. None could be left, to produce more children, to permit among those children the rise of new Tyrants.’
‘And how,’ Korlat asked, ‘does this relate to the K’Chain Che’Malle?’
‘Before the Jaghut ruled this world, the K’Chain Che’Malle ruled. The first Jaghut were to the K’Chain Che’Malle as the first Imass were to the Jaghut.’ She paused, her heavy gaze moving among them all. ‘In each species is born the seeds of domination. Our wars with the Jaghut destroyed us, as a living people, as a vibrant, evolving culture. That was the price we paid, to ensure the freedom you now possess. Our eternal sacrifice.’ She fell silent once more, then continued in a harder tone, ‘So, now, I ask you – all of you, who have taken upon yourselves the task of waging war against a tyrannical, all-devouring empire, of possibly sacrificing your own lives to the benefit of peoples who know nothing of you, of lands you have never and will never set foot upon – I ask you, what is there about us, about the T’lan Imass, that still escapes your understanding? Destroy the Pannion Domin. It must be done. For me, for my T’lan Imass, awaits the task of destroying the threat hiding behind the Pannion Seer, the threat that is the K’Chain Che’Malle.’
She slowly studied their faces. ‘A Matron lives. Flesh and blood. Should she find a male of her kind, a flesh and blood male ... the tyranny of the Jaghut will be as nothing to that of the K’Chain Che’Malle. This, then, will be our sacrifice.’

So in this quote two things become pretty clear:

1. The KCCM were never referred to as Tyrants. They were simply dominant. In fact contextualise this info with the picture of KCCM society we get in DoD and TCG. Kell Hunters, Shigal assasins, rank upon rank of warriors, organized, ruled by matrons. Put against them the isolationist Jaghut one small family unit, or one individual at a time. Unless they were superpowered like Hood, Gothos, or Raest they would not stand a chance. Obviously the KCCM would dominate. But clearly that domination took the form of a better ability to compete for resources, occupation of territory etc. There is nothing to prove the KCCM turned either Jaghut or Imass into their slaves.

2. At the gathering where this conversation happened Brod was present. Here Kallor makes his statement about how not all Jaghut were Tyrants. And Silverfox agrees with him. But goes on to state that they had to die as the Imass could no longer let any Jaghut live. What this does is render moot any argument about if Brood knew or not. He could not but have known, as Silverfox, who by this time everybody was accepting as an authority onthe Imass admitted it herself.

I was following the argument upthread, but found myself blanking on the circumstances so I had to go look this up. If there are any relevant sections I am missing, please tell me.

[The Old Guard]

Andorion, on 29 August 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

Quote

'Perhaps an explanation,' Dujek said, 'will assist us in understanding.'
Silverfox gave a sharp nod. 'When the first Imass emerged, they were forced to live in the shadow of the Jaghut. Tolerated, ignored, but only in small, manageable numbers. Pushed to the poorest of lands. Then Tyrants arose among the Jaghut, who found pleasure in enslaving them, in forcing upon them a nightmarish existence – that successive generations were born into and so knew of no other life, knew nothing of freedom itself.
'The lesson was hard, not easily swallowed, for the truth was this: there were intelligent beings in the world who exploited the virtues of others, their compassion, their love, their faith in kin. Exploited, and mocked. How many Imass tribes discovered that their gods were in fact Jaghut Tyrants? Hidden behind friendly masks. Tyrants, who manipulated them with the weapon of faith.
'The rebellion was inevitable, and it was devastating for the Imass. Weaker, uncertain even of what it was they sought, or what freedom would show them should they find it... But we would not relent. We could not.'
Kallor sneered. 'There were never more than but a handful of Tyrants among the Jaghut, woman.'
'A handful was too many, and aye, we found allies among the Jaghut – those for whom the activities of the Tyrants were reprehensible. But we now carried scars. Scars born of mistrust, of betrayal. We could trust only in our own kind. In the name of our generations to come, all Jaghut would have to die. None could be left, to produce more children, to permit among those children the rise of new Tyrants.'
'And how,' Korlat asked, 'does this relate to the K'Chain Che'Malle?'
'Before the Jaghut ruled this world, the K'Chain Che'Malle ruled. The first Jaghut were to the K'Chain Che'Malle as the first Imass were to the Jaghut.' She paused, her heavy gaze moving among them all. 'In each species is born the seeds of domination. Our wars with the Jaghut destroyed us, as a living people, as a vibrant, evolving culture. That was the price we paid, to ensure the freedom you now possess. Our eternal sacrifice.' She fell silent once more, then continued in a harder tone, 'So, now, I ask you – all of you, who have taken upon yourselves the task of waging war against a tyrannical, all-devouring empire, of possibly sacrificing your own lives to the benefit of peoples who know nothing of you, of lands you have never and will never set foot upon – I ask you, what is there about us, about the T'lan Imass, that still escapes your understanding? Destroy the Pannion Domin. It must be done. For me, for my T'lan Imass, awaits the task of destroying the threat hiding behind the Pannion Seer, the threat that is the K'Chain Che'Malle.'
She slowly studied their faces. 'A Matron lives. Flesh and blood. Should she find a male of her kind, a flesh and blood male ... the tyranny of the Jaghut will be as nothing to that of the K'Chain Che'Malle. This, then, will be our sacrifice.'

So in this quote two things become pretty clear:

1. The KCCM were never referred to as Tyrants. They were simply dominant. In fact contextualise this info with the picture of KCCM society we get in DoD and TCG. Kell Hunters, Shigal assasins, rank upon rank of warriors, organized, ruled by matrons. Put against them the isolationist Jaghut one small family unit, or one individual at a time. Unless they were superpowered like Hood, Gothos, or Raest they would not stand a chance. Obviously the KCCM would dominate. But clearly that domination took the form of a better ability to compete for resources, occupation of territory etc. There is nothing to prove the KCCM turned either Jaghut or Imass into their slaves.

2. At the gathering where this conversation happened Brod was present. Here Kallor makes his statement about how not all Jaghut were Tyrants. And Silverfox agrees with him. But goes on to state that they had to die as the Imass could no longer let any Jaghut live. What this does is render moot any argument about if Brood knew or not. He could not but have known, as Silverfox, who by this time everybody was accepting as an authority onthe Imass admitted it herself.

I was following the argument upthread, but found myself blanking on the circumstances so I had to go look this up. If there are any relevant sections I am missing, please tell me.

Thank you for the quote, and I agree with your point 2. In this conversation Brood is mostly irrelevant, as he does not intervene. He knew, obviously, but we can't conclude anything on whatever opinion he might have on the subject.


I don't remember whether there are other relevant quotes and unfortunately I do not have the books on hand, but Brood staying silent is markedly different than him agreeing with Silverfox. Also, what would be the use of Brood verbally siding with Kallor? The High King's point was simple, it would have been useless to repeat it.

[Andorion]

Quote

Thank you for the quote, and I agree with your point 2. In this conversation Brood is mostly irrelevant, as he does not intervene. He knew, obviously, but we can't conclude anything on whatever opinion he might have on the subject.<br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);"><br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34);">I don't remember whether there are other relevant quotes and unfortunately I do not have the books on hand, but Brood staying silent is markedly different than him agreeing with Silverfox. Also, what would be the use of Brood verbally siding with Kallor? The High King's point was simple, it would have been useless to repeat it.

@Old Guard: I totally agree Brood was pretty irrelevant in that conversation. I mainly meant my post as a rebuttal to one of the above posts, Blackzoid's I believe, where he says that Brood should have sided with Kallor against Silverfox. The point I am making is that regarding the Jaghut Tyrant vs Imass issue Kallor and Silverfox were not arguing, because as soon as Kallor points out the minority of Jaghut who were tyrants, Silverfox concedes the point. She does go on to say that regardless of that fact the Imass chose to begn a genocidal conflict. But if she agrees with Kallor about the essential point of not all Jaghut being tyrants Brood could hardly have been expected to take a side, as there were no real sides here

[blackzoid]

1: You are missing the quote which Brood makes that after this point, Brood says to Kallor "And you find in this woman an abomination?" Thats his contribution to the conversation. It's right after the "tyranny of the K'Chain Che'malle" quote.
I think ,in my opinion, at that point Brood morally should have at least pointed out that since he was from that time, he personally knew that not all the Jaghut were Tyrants as Kallor said. And that what the T'lan Imass did was maybe a bad thing. We certainly get that knocked into us from about HoC onwards. I think every character from that book onwards basically starts saying that.

2: Ok so we are all agreed that the KCCM were indeed powerful and dominiont, but not Tyrants. Certainly never "ruled" the Jaghut.

[tiam]

Just some points

I wonder if the Jaghut Tyrant Gods ever used their Imass worshippers to fight off a potential KCCM? The seeds of domination speech from Silverfox is well and good and Raest, in GOTM POV, is clearly loving being a Tyrant but it is not possible that some of the Jaghut hid, becoming worshipped as gods then used their worshippers against the KCCM? Possible and would add a nice dimension to the 'evil' Tyrant plotline.

The Liosan are not the same as the Andii and their involvement in Wu is much smaller. The full unveiling we see in MOI links KG with Wu in a fundamental way so they can be considered one of the Four Races. Why the Edur arent on the list is unknown.

The Liosan we see in TCG represent a coup, opportunistic due to the influence of the FA and the distraction provided by Yath. We see in SW/OST that the majority of the Liosan armed forces, along with Loric and Ossercs supposed many daughters, are trying to bring down the otateral infused mage from ROTCG (Yath I think). This represents the isolationist Liosan army. It is mainly a peasant militia on both sides that are fighting at Lightfall. We see this from the low quality of weapons and training in TCG. So the Liosan faction that wanted to come to Wu in an alliance of justice were defeated and the isolationist faction will likely return taking control meaning no more Liosan excursions into Wu.

[blackzoid]

Hasn't Osserc returned to the Liosan warren after Blood and Bone?
So maybe the group that dealt with Yath have retuened along with Osserc. They may have been shocked with what Fant and the others did to the Liosan people in TCG.

[Vaddon Ra]

Spoiler

I got the impression that he was definitely Spinnock Durav. The mention of Seerdomin's burial site and the Kef Tanar games gave that away

I thought that too right at the end... even down to his appearance as quite broad... but.. and I may be missing something... I thought Spinnock was hanging out with Nimander and the tiste over in Kharkanas at the end of TCG? I didn't think he was dead...

sooooo

what's up with that?

Unless I am wrong and he dies in which case I would agree certainly

[Abyss]

blackzoid, on 01 September 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

2: Ok so we are all agreed that the KCCM were indeed powerful and dominiont, but not Tyrants. Certainly never "ruled" the Jaghut.

Nope.
There'[s ample evidence that KC Matrons were far from kind to 'lesser' races, so i don't consider the possibility off the table at all.

tiam, on 01 September 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

Just some points

I wonder if the Jaghut Tyrant Gods ever used their Imass worshippers to fight off a potential KCCM? The seeds of domination speech from Silverfox is well and good and Raest, in GOTM POV, is clearly loving being a Tyrant but it is not possible that some of the Jaghut hid, becoming worshipped as gods then used their worshippers against the KCCM? Possible and would add a nice dimension to the 'evil' Tyrant plotline.

Interesting theory, totally valid.

Quote

The Liosan are not the same as the Andii and their involvement in Wu is much smaller. The full unveiling we see in MOI links KG with Wu in a fundamental way so they can be considered one of the Four Races. Why the Edur arent on the list is unknown.

Could have something to do with the suggestions that the Edur are, or started out as, diluted versions of the Andii and Edur, neither Light nor Dark so not purely of either.

blackzoid, on 01 September 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Hasn't Osserc returned to the Liosan warren after Blood and Bone?
...

He's back in the warren but we don't know who has him.