[Illuyankas]

From what I can tell it's possible that Hamas members were out of communication (due to the power plant being out of 'service' - oh yeah, remember that one baby who had to be cut out of her dead mother? Turns out she died after three days, and as far as I know her incubator ran out of power leading to her death, yay) and not knowing it was a ceasefire when IDF troops tried to blow up the tunnel they were in. Incidentally it's a pretty shitty ceasefire where one side can continue to blow up stuff, like Kerry proposal or this one here. The timeline is a bit iffy but it's possible that Hamas broke this ceasefire, which obviously means all those other times that Israel broke a ceasefire are automatically justified and can be ignored, right? But it's ok though, cause it turns out the Palestinians (not specifically Hamas, mind you) also violated some ceasefires!



I guess we should add some more marks on the Palestinian side once this gets updated.



I posted those pictures as examples of how biased the media is in reporting what's going on over there. I left out the ABC report showing a destroyed house in Gaza being described as Israeli (with an apology that wasn't nearly as prominent as the original offence), the reporter being removed for 'safety' with a replacement being flown into this clearly unsafe area when candidly reporting on the beach bombing of the children he's been playing with before social media outcry got him reimplaced in Gaza, or the reporter showing Israelis watching Gaza being bombed in deckchairs and cheering being reassigned to Russia after calling the people laughing at the destruction and threatening her if she badmouthed them 'scum' in a tweet, and the network guest who spoke about the incredible bias Israel gets compared to Palestine who then had all her appearances canceled, among others. Just individuals, to be ignored, in no way a trend.

Rather than try and persuade you that killing thousands of people and hundreds of children needlessly cannot be justified I'll just post this already outdated casualty graph for now:



You can guess which colour is which.

[Terez]

What are you guys doing watching American media anyway? Everyone knows it sucks.

[Cause]

Illuyankas, on 04 August 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

From what I can tell it's possible that Hamas members were out of communication (due to the power plant being out of 'service' - oh yeah, remember that one baby who had to be cut out of her dead mother? Turns out she died after three days, and as far as I know her incubator ran out of power leading to her death, yay) and not knowing it was a ceasefire when IDF troops tried to blow up the tunnel they were in. Incidentally it's a pretty shitty ceasefire where one side can continue to blow up stuff, like Kerry proposal or this one here. The timeline is a bit iffy but it's possible that Hamas broke this ceasefire, which obviously means all those other times that Israel broke a ceasefire are automatically justified and can be ignored, right? But it's ok though, cause it turns out the Palestinians (not specifically Hamas, mind you) also violated some ceasefires!

You have clearly lost perspective! When we speak of Gaza power stations we should speak of 3 of them. The Gaza station which supplies 30% of their power, the Egyptian one which supplies about 10 and the Israeli one which supplies about 60%. Hamas I presume 'accidentally' knocked out the Israeli one in the opening week of this conflict. You see they can't target their weapons which makes the firing of each one a war crime. In any event the reason ceasefires happen at a co-ordinated date in the future is so each side has time to co-ordinate its forces. Either Hamas can't control its forces or does not care to.

What does one women death however tragic have to do with the ceasefire?

Also I cat speak to the particulars of the ceasefire but the tunnels extend into sovreign Israel, even in peacetime Israel would be in its right to collapse them. You make excuses for one side and demand the impossible from the other.

PS here is a table on wikipedia, according to it Germany suffered the 4th most civilian casualties as a result of military activity and war crimes, I conclude by your logic they were the 4th most moral side in WW2. Behind only the USSR, china and Poland.

As for Biased reporting I have the opinion that if both sides are complaining that the media coverage is biased the truth must be in there somewhere. Otherwise we can talk about all those mis-attributed pictures that are actually from Syria.

[Studlock]

You know whats really impossible? Living in a small strip of land without any kind international connection or support surrounded by people who loath for not being them, the very same people who enforce the disconnection with large global society and trying to stay sane. You should try it sometime it worked wonders for the First Nations on the reserves and the Africans on the homelands. You sound like the same people who pretended the residential schools were necessary tools of 'civilization'. But please continue to act like an 80 percent civilian death rate is not only justified but really, the moral choice.

Edit: I was being an asshole and a bastard, my apologies.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 04 August 2014 - 08:36 PM

[EmperorMagus]

Studlock, on 04 August 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

You know whats really impossible? Living in a small strip of land without any kind international connection or support surrounded by people who loath for not being them, the very same people who enforce the disconnection with large global society and trying to stay sane. You should try it sometime it worked wonders for the First Nations on the reserves and the Africans on the homelands, you disingenuous fuck. You sound like the same people who pretended the residential schools were necessary tools of 'civilization'. But please continue to act like an 80 percent civilian death rate is not only justified but really, the moral choice (which, by the way, what the fuck is wrong with you?).

Friend, I completely agree with your points, but please try to stay civil. Insulting someone gets in the way of discussion.

[Illuyankas]

That was a typo where I meant 'their' but I'll let it stand. You keep assuming Hamas has total control over every armed individual in the Strip where I have stated that there are numerous splinter groups who are unwilling to negotiate with Israel at all, and even despite Israel preventing Hamas from being able to police Gaza properly (to the point where they attempted to kill a Hamas police chief for no reason other than he was a bureaucrat in the wrong organisation, missed him and only killed 22 members of his family) they have still kept rocket fire to almost nothing during ceasefires (which are made between Israel and Hamas not Israel and every Palestinian ever, but of course I already told you all this and you already ignored it).

It was just an example of some of the horrible things Israel has done to Palestine since June. Can you list some of the horrible things Palestine has done to Israel this conflict? Or are you still pulling that 'war crime equals war crime, no matter if one is a scorched road and one is a bloody smear that used to be a family' equivalency thing?

I 'make excuses' for the side that doesn't have the Apache helicopters or the main battle tanks or the cruise missiles, the side that specifically doesn't target people who aren't in the military, the side being oppressed and blockaded and hounded out of their land. You are making excuses for the side that detects a rocket being fired by a street close to a hospital, then has tanks fire at the hospital long after the militants who fired the thing have moved on and left, then deny medical aid and reconstruction materials to the survivors. Do you know that the IDF is enforcing a three mile wide buffer zone inside Gaza that they are levelling, for the use of 'finding more terror tunnels' - the changing of reasons for being Gaza changing so often should be cause for concern for anyone - that shrinks the size of Gaza for Palestinians to go in by 40%? Where are the hundreds of thousands of homeless people meant to go?

Sentences like this are the reason why, though I try, I'm not really debating with you to change your mind, Cause, but to change the minds of anyone reading who's on the fence. I may have a small, nigh-undetectable bias against the oppressively occupying civilian-murdering fake-democracy of Israel, but I'm not making completely fucking stupid statements like 'my logic is that more dead civilians = more moral'. If you want to make loaded and pointless insinuations comparing the I/P conflict with WWII I could join in as well - like how the most apt comparison to Gaza is the Warsaw Ghetto, or how the only side to reach Israel's civilian kill ratio is Germany if you include the victims of the Holocaust - but they're all useless statements that detract from the topic. Also yes, they are all disingenuous as balls.

The general use of the phrase 'the truth is in the middle' can be proven worthless by using it to describe a debate between a medical physician and an anti-vaccination activist. Comments from both sides do not inherently meant both are equally valid or to the same extent, and there is no denying that the vast, vast majority of media coverage is favourable to Israel, despite the wildly differing killcount and tactics used.




Cause, answer me one question. Just one.

Are the Israelis justified in firing at civilian targets, such as hospitals? Yes or no?

[Tsundoku]

Illuyankas, on 04 August 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Are the Israelis justified in firing at civilian targets, such as hospitals? Yes or no?

Morally - of course not.

Legally - sadly, yes.

I know, it shocked the hell out of me as well. It's all in the definition of "legitimate targets" etc. If weapons are stored or manufactured there, or combatants operate from there, it becomes a legitimate target.

Even the legal officer giving us that brief found it disturbing.

This post has been edited by Sombra: 05 August 2014 - 07:28 AM

[cerveza_fiesta]

Illuyankas, on 04 August 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

...... Or are you still pulling that 'war crime equals war crime, no matter if one is a scorched road and one is a bloody smear that used to be a family' equivalency thing?

..................

The general use of the phrase 'the truth is in the middle' can be proven worthless by using it to describe a debate between a medical physician and an anti-vaccination activist. Comments from both sides do not inherently meant both are equally valid or to the same extent.............
.............

Are the Israelis justified in firing at civilian targets, such as hospitals? Yes or no?

This is "False Equivalence" - a logical fallacy that mainstream media is all-too-often duped by when reporting on climate change, creationist and vaccination debates, among other things. I think it applies here, especially as it regards the numerous comparisons thus far to Nazi Germany.

In that last bolded sentence, careful you don't go down the strawman road. That probably can't be answered with a yes or a no and forces Cause to boil his complex argument down to the point where it loses all meaning.

RE your point on changing peoples' minds: you definitely changed mine, and I admit that I fell for false equivalence in the pro-israel / pro-gaza sides of the debate myself (thanks in part to Canadian media). Israel's actions in this massacre are IMO disproportionate, morally deficient and totally unjustifiable.

This post has been edited by cerveza_fiesta: 05 August 2014 - 03:31 PM

[Illuyankas]

I appreciate that, thank you. I refuse to type like an emotionless automaton but I do recognise I can get a little argghahhrauhr sometimes.

Do you have any good links on Australian military law, Sombra? I'm curious as to the differences in doctrine regarding reasonable suspicion in armed forces and how they compare.

[Tsundoku]

Illuyankas, on 05 August 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

I appreciate that, thank you. I refuse to type like an emotionless automaton but I do recognise I can get a little argghahhrauhr sometimes.

Do you have any good links on Australian military law, Sombra? I'm curious as to the differences in doctrine regarding reasonable suspicion in armed forces and how they compare.

Actually I don't, sorry. This is all what I recall from briefs I had 4 years ago. Things may have changed since then, but I doubt it. I only recall those points specifically (among a few others) because it was so startling to me at the time.

You raise a good point about reasonable suspicion, and I believe (hope) this is probably the point we would be a lot more stringent than some other armed forces.

I believe the key phrase if you are searching is "laws of armed conflict". Rules of Engagement (RoE) are very specific, as are Orders for Opening Fire (OFOF - they come in cute colour-coded cards for easy reference ). There are a few references to LoAC in the ADF online library, but the pdfs don't seem to want to load.

EDIT: just saw this

http://www.news.com....q-1227015927398

I wish there was a way to get all combatants into an arena to freely have at each other, leaving the innocents alone.

But during my life I have found that the people who froth at the mouth the most over how justifiable a war is, and loudest in their calls to pull the trigger are usually the last to climb into the ring, so to speak. If you catch my drift.

EDIT2: the stepdaughter is currently doing an essay referencing the most recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict. She keeps shaking her head and saying "It's all such a mess!*" She watches the news a lot more these days than she used to and it's like watching someone age almost overnight (yes yes I know we age constantly, I was being figurative ). It's like "that moment" when innocence or blissful ignorance becomes unwelcome knowledge. Watching THAT occur is downright depressing, but we are also aware we are very lucky to be able to do so in a country like ours. She now knows that it could be a lot worse.

* polite version

This post has been edited by Sombra: 06 August 2014 - 01:08 PM

[Gust Hubb]

Video of rocket assembly and firing.

https://www.facebook...3763068&fref=nf

This post has been edited by Gust Hubb: 07 August 2014 - 12:27 PM

[EmperorMagus]

Gust Hubb, on 07 August 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Video of rocket assembly and firing.

https://www.facebook...3763068&fref=nf

I don't know about the people who commented under the video but this clearly shows a couple of things:

A)Hamas may fire from residential areas, but the video shows they use portable launch sites, like those used by Hezbollah. Israeli bombardment of hospitals and schools is unjustified.(Not that I think their whole attack has the smallest measure of justice in it)
B)The reporter clearly states multiple times that the Rocket was launched from an open plot of land. If Israel is really trying to stop civilian deaths, they can bomb the damn plot instead of the house across the street.

I'm not saying that the reporter is lying, but their only proof that there was a rocket fired from that spot is a lot of smoke and a tent which could have been set up by anyone. They even show nothing of the assembly. The fact that there is nothing said about Israel bombing the area later is another thing making me believe these video may not be completely honest.

[Mentalist]

Sombra, on 04 August 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on 04 August 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Are the Israelis justified in firing at civilian targets, such as hospitals? Yes or no?

Morally - of course not.

Legally - sadly, yes.

I know, it shocked the hell out of me as well. It's all in the definition of "legitimate targets" etc. If weapons are stored or manufactured there, or combatants operate from there, it becomes a legitimate target.

Even the legal officer giving us that brief found it disturbing.

A follow-up question:

Was there any discussion of "appropriate force" (i.e, sending in small diversion/recon groups to take out firing crews, instead of blasting everyhting in a km radius back to the stone age)?

In our house we watch a new-York based Israeli-Russian news channel (of the 4 Russian channels available from out cable provider, it's the only one in which we can watch news about Ukraine without triggering a gag reflex). So, naturally, I hear a ton of anti-Palestine rhetoric.

But, comparing the 2 contemporary conficts, the portion of military casualties is much higher in Ukraine, and the portion of civillians is much lower (though it still reached several hundred by now).
Now, partially, this is unquestionably due to the level of preparedness and equipment of the respective combatting sides--Israeli military is much-better supplied and trained that the Ukrainian one, which has been degrading in inaction for the past 20-odd years. (Also, the whole "Russian artillery is shelling us and we can't shoot back, because we're not technically at war" costs a lot of lives)

But an even bigger difference is the tactics. Yes, Ukrainians also occasionally respond with atrillery and aerial strikes, and hit civillian targets. But in majority of cases, the fighting comes down to infantry combat, with tanks and APCs being primarily used for support in blockading terrorist groups in cities and villages, cutting off their retreat paths. It's much more costly, sure. It takes longer time, sure. But it DOES reduce the amount of bystander casualties. And, who knows? maybe if regular people in Gaza saw that IDF is taking casualties to ensure they target ONLY Hamas. maybe they'd think twice before voting for Hamas again.

[Cause]

EmperorMagus, on 07 August 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 07 August 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Video of rocket assembly and firing.

https://www.facebook...3763068&fref=nf

I don't know about the people who commented under the video but this clearly shows a couple of things:

A)Hamas may fire from residential areas, but the video shows they use portable launch sites, like those used by Hezbollah. Israeli bombardment of hospitals and schools is unjustified.(Not that I think their whole attack has the smallest measure of justice in it)
B)The reporter clearly states multiple times that the Rocket was launched from an open plot of land. If Israel is really trying to stop civilian deaths, they can bomb the damn plot instead of the house across the street.

I'm not saying that the reporter is lying, but their only proof that there was a rocket fired from that spot is a lot of smoke and a tent which could have been set up by anyone. They even show nothing of the assembly. The fact that there is nothing said about Israel bombing the area later is another thing making me believe these video may not be completely honest.

A Hamas rocket launcher outside a hotel, near civilian houses and next to a UN building. They have 3 times been caught using UNRWA Schools to cache rockets. A building that hid a tunnel entrance and was wired with explosives was labelled falsely by Hamas as an UNRWA clinic. The evidence that they act this way exists.

Emperor I will add this, Hamas is from a military point of view defeated. They were defeated before this violence even began. Without excusing it, only understanding it, ask yourself if Hamas could operate in any other way. If they gather in the open they would be killed. If they build a military base it will be levelled. They are asymmetric guerilla fighters and terrorists.

Israel is not bombing the west bank, its not killing Arabs or Palestinians within Israel proper. They are fighting Hamas! Either its in self defence or to play devils advocate its because Hamas firing rockets at Israel gives them the 'excuse'. To end the Palestinian deaths all Hamas has to do is end the fighting and agree to a cease fire. The current one is holding, though I have read they plan to resume as soon as it ends. Also the current cease fire is identical to the one proposed on July 15th. 90% of the casualties could have been avoided if that one had been accepted.

As for the blockade. Its roots trace back to one conflict. When Hamas won the elections 3 things were asked of it. To renounce violence as a way to defeat Irael (if this conflict is an indication I would again argue it would have been in their own interest), to recognise that Israel has a right to exist and finally to agree to keep the deals so far agreed to in the peace process as agreed to by the PLO. They rejected all 3 and the US, UK, UE and Russia began an embargo against them. Later when Hamas and Fatah had a civil war and the fatah security forces were expelled or killed in Gaza both Egypt and Israel began the blockade. PS the blockade by Egypt has a lot more to do than just american money. Egypt distrusts Hamas because they support terrorist groups in the Sinai, they are believed to have helped a Hezbollah plot in egypt and because they are backed by Iran Egypt has concerns.

@Illy- I dot really expect to win either. That said debate is also about exploring a topic not just deciding on it. I can see and have spoken about what I consider some of the faults in Israel, west bank settlements being th most egregious. I looked it up and yes before 2010 things like chocolate were apparently indeed kept out of Gaza by the Blockade. All I can say is that is remarkably stupid and pointless. I can see the flaws in Israel. You seem unwilling or unable to see the flaws in Hamas. I would like to see you just once have you admit where you have over stepped the mark, I called you out on it and I was right, Hamas does not recognize Israel, has never agreed to give up on east Jerusalem or even the whole of Israel by your own quote that you found. You speak of a Gaza without electricity but when I point out that Hamas damaged more of its own supply than Israel ever did you ignore this. You say that storing rockets in an UNWRA school is not a problem because the school was empty at the time? You say blind firing rockets at civilian targets is not a war crime? You post an info-graphic that shows 3 tunnels clearly pointed at three Jewish towns and you say that its for capturing Israeli soldiers? By the way capturing soldiers and threatening them with harm or to bargain their release for gains is a war crime. So is denying them access to the red cross or correspondence with their families. You say Hamas only seeks military targets? How can you possibly even make this claim! You say Israel is not democratic when 10% of the parliament is Arab. It scores the highest in the middle east for democratic and press freedom. This women is in the Israeli Knesset https://en.wikipedia...ki/Haneen_Zoabi

Illy of course my point about Germany is absurd. So is your insistence that the casualty comparison between Israel and Palestinians has merit. Israel has an early warning system, it has the iron dome and by law it has a bomb shelter in every home. How this is a bad thing I have no Idea. Navi Pillay of the UN human rights council has criticized Amaerica for helping to fund the iron dome and points out that Gaza has received no such protection! Hamas rockets I will also grant you are shit but that does not excuse their killing intent or that they are targeted at civilians. I know how your government would and has responded to bombs being fired its way.

Lastly just to put the Gaza-Nazi Germany comparisons to bed. The most appropriate comparison to Gaza is not the Warsaw ghetto. The Warsaw ghetto had 300,000 to 400, 000 Jews in 3.5 square kilometres. 100, 000 Jews were killed or starved to death in the 3 years it existed for. The remainder of course were shipped to death camps and were killed their. Treblinka is where most ended up and in its 1 year of operations killed between 700,000 and 900,000 Jews. By comparison the Gaza strip experiences population growth of 4% and as I have pointed out has a higher life expectancy, access to medical care and better employment than my own country. To answer you previous charge, I don't bring this out to dismiss the suffering of Gaza out of hand I mention it to point out that Gaza is not under Siege like some castle in ancient times and that false analogies fire up the blood but move us away from the truth of the issue.

Also we are of course correct to be cautious of sources of information. Emperor is within his rights to regard that video as suspect. I am waiting for more solid evidence before I point out the Hamas manual of urban warfare that calls for use of human shields or that Israel now has a suspect in jail for the kindapping of the 3 teens that has confessed he was backed by Hamas. I would also point out that it tooks months before we learnt that the 'Massacre of Jenin' was a lie. Or that months after operation Cast Lead was over before Hamas revised his count of dead fighters from 49 to 700.

This post has been edited by Cause: 07 August 2014 - 07:42 PM

[EmperorMagus]

Cause, on 07 August 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 07 August 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 07 August 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Video of rocket assembly and firing.

https://www.facebook...3763068&fref=nf

I don't know about the people who commented under the video but this clearly shows a couple of things:

A)Hamas may fire from residential areas, but the video shows they use portable launch sites, like those used by Hezbollah. Israeli bombardment of hospitals and schools is unjustified.(Not that I think their whole attack has the smallest measure of justice in it)
B)The reporter clearly states multiple times that the Rocket was launched from an open plot of land. If Israel is really trying to stop civilian deaths, they can bomb the damn plot instead of the house across the street.

I'm not saying that the reporter is lying, but their only proof that there was a rocket fired from that spot is a lot of smoke and a tent which could have been set up by anyone. They even show nothing of the assembly. The fact that there is nothing said about Israel bombing the area later is another thing making me believe these video may not be completely honest.

https://www.youtube....h?v=NMiG9JD2OxM

A Hamas rocket launcher outside a hotel, near civilian houses and next to a UN building. They have 3 times been caught using UNRWA Schools to cache rockets. A building that hid a tunnel entrance and was wired with explosives was labelled falsely by Hamas as an UNRWA clinic. The evidence that they act this way exists.

Emperor I will add this, Hamas is from a military point of view defeated. They were defeated before this violence even began. Without excusing it, only understanding it, ask yourself if Hamas could operate in any other way. If they gather in the open they would be killed. If they build a military base it will be levelled. They are asymmetric guerilla fighters and terrorists.

Still,the video shows that Hamas is using open land, not a building, and definitely not the UN building. The schools used to cache rockets were all empty.
Israel bombed more than one UNRWA school full of refugees. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING justifies that. You can't argue that there are worse things happening right across the border in Syria, so it's alright for Israel to bomb UN schools. You can't say that Hamas raises blue flags over other buildings so it's alright for Israel to bomb buildings which it KNOWS belong to UN.


If I was to explain the situation in Gaza to someone in US, I would use a simple example.
Imagine for a moment that some Great Power (Say Nazi Germany in WW II) defeats your country in a war, then occupies it completely. Then the Germans form a council made of themselves, the Italians, and the Japanese to decide the fate of US. They decide to divide the country in two parts, half of it for the Americans and the other half for black skinned people.
Would the Americans recognize the demands of this new "nation"? Would they even recognize it as an independent country?
If I was a Hamas leader (or a Palestinian) I wouldn't like the existence of this new "country" either.

I do not defend the actions of Hamas in targeting innocent civilians or in trying to capture soldiers, I'm not saying they do the right thing, but the simple fact is that Israel can arrest hundreds of Hamas civilians because it has the power and the only thing that Hamas CAN do to secure their release is capturing Israeli soldiers.

This post has been edited by EmperorMagus: 07 August 2014 - 09:12 PM

[Brujah]

I guess everyone has their own opinion, but I feel terrible, terrible for the Palestinians. I'm anti-Israel, so my thoughts would be biased, but it's a horrible situation.

[Brujah]

EmperorMagus, on 07 August 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

Cause, on 07 August 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

EmperorMagus, on 07 August 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 07 August 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Video of rocket assembly and firing.

https://www.facebook...3763068&fref=nf

I don't know about the people who commented under the video but this clearly shows a couple of things:

A)Hamas may fire from residential areas, but the video shows they use portable launch sites, like those used by Hezbollah. Israeli bombardment of hospitals and schools is unjustified.(Not that I think their whole attack has the smallest measure of justice in it)
B)The reporter clearly states multiple times that the Rocket was launched from an open plot of land. If Israel is really trying to stop civilian deaths, they can bomb the damn plot instead of the house across the street.

I'm not saying that the reporter is lying, but their only proof that there was a rocket fired from that spot is a lot of smoke and a tent which could have been set up by anyone. They even show nothing of the assembly. The fact that there is nothing said about Israel bombing the area later is another thing making me believe these video may not be completely honest.

https://www.youtube....h?v=NMiG9JD2OxM

A Hamas rocket launcher outside a hotel, near civilian houses and next to a UN building. They have 3 times been caught using UNRWA Schools to cache rockets. A building that hid a tunnel entrance and was wired with explosives was labelled falsely by Hamas as an UNRWA clinic. The evidence that they act this way exists.

Emperor I will add this, Hamas is from a military point of view defeated. They were defeated before this violence even began. Without excusing it, only understanding it, ask yourself if Hamas could operate in any other way. If they gather in the open they would be killed. If they build a military base it will be levelled. They are asymmetric guerilla fighters and terrorists.

Still,the video shows that Hamas is using open land, not a building, and definitely not the UN building. The schools used to cache rockets were all empty.
Israel bombed more than one UNRWA school full of refugees. NOTHING and I mean NOTHING justifies that. You can't argue that there are worse things happening right across the border in Syria, so it's alright for Israel to bomb UN schools. You can't say that Hamas raises blue flags over other buildings so it's alright for Israel to bomb buildings which it KNOWS belong to UN.


If I was to explain the situation in Gaza to someone in US, I would use a simple example.
Imagine for a moment that some Great Power (Say Nazi Germany in WW II) defeats your country in a war, then occupies it completely. Then the Germans form a council made of themselves, the Italians, and the Japanese to decide the fate of US. They decide to divide the country in two parts, half of it for the Americans and the other half for black skinned people.
Would the Americans recognize the demands of this new "nation"? Would they even recognize it as an independent country?
If I was a Hamas leader (or a Palestinian) I wouldn't like the existence of this new "country" either.

I do not defend the actions of Hamas in targeting innocent civilians or in trying to capture soldiers, I'm not saying they do the right thing, but the simple fact is that Israel can arrest hundreds of Hamas civilians because it has the power and the only thing that Hamas CAN do to secure their release is capturing Israeli soldiers.

You wouldn't have to explain it. Many, many of us definitely realize the situation as you described. I think it's a bad stereotype to assume people in the US are all pro-Israel. If someone tried to do to US the way Israel has done to the Palestinians, then there would be hell to pay. I'm not really up for joining the debate on whether or not Israel is justified in what it does, because I think they aren't, and I realize the reasons for why some say they are. I just wanted to put my stance on it all out there.

[Tsundoku]

Mentalist, on 07 August 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

Sombra, on 04 August 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on 04 August 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

Are the Israelis justified in firing at civilian targets, such as hospitals? Yes or no?

Morally - of course not.

Legally - sadly, yes.

I know, it shocked the hell out of me as well. It's all in the definition of "legitimate targets" etc. If weapons are stored or manufactured there, or combatants operate from there, it becomes a legitimate target.

Even the legal officer giving us that brief found it disturbing.

A follow-up question:

Was there any discussion of "appropriate force" (i.e, sending in small diversion/recon groups to take out firing crews, instead of blasting everything in a km radius back to the stone age)?

"Appropriate force" is very subjective, and what you're describing is just one specific scenario. "Proportionate" is probably a more accurate word. We also simply don't have the massive range of options available to countries with a bigger defence budget. I really couldn't give you a hard and fast rule, all I know is we're not the sort of army to "blast everything in a km radius back to the stone age". I know I'm not explaining well here, but I hope that makes some sense.

A point about Gaza vs Ukraine collateral damage: a significant portion of the fighting in Ukraine is spread out, in open areas away from major population centres etc. You don't have that option in Gaza.

[Illuyankas]

Cause, on 07 August 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

Another post that says 'Israel is justfied in bombing civilians'

Seriously?

Quote

A Hamas rocket launcher outside a hotel, near civilian houses and next to a UN building. They have 3 times been caught using UNRWA Schools to cache rockets. A building that hid a tunnel entrance and was wired with explosives was labelled falsely by Hamas as an UNRWA clinic. The evidence that they act this way exists.

Doesn't justify the bombing of civilians. The bolded part - as I have stated before which you are ignoring again - was using empty buildings to store rockets, which were then moved upon request when the buildings were occupied! And then bombed anyway! Killing at least 14 people in one and I forget how many NEEDLESS DEATHS from the others!

Quote

Hamas is from a military point of view defeated. They were defeated before this violence even began. Without excusing it, only understanding it, ask yourself if Hamas could operate in any other way. If they gather in the open they would be killed. If they build a military base it will be levelled. They are asymmetric guerilla fighters and terrorists.

Also doesn't justify the bombing of civilians!

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Israel is not bombing the west bank, its not killing Arabs or Palestinians within Israel proper. They are fighting Hamas! Either its in self defence or to play devils advocate its because Hamas firing rockets at Israel gives them the 'excuse'. To end the Palestinian deaths all Hamas has to do is end the fighting and agree to a cease fire. The current one is holding, though I have read they plan to resume as soon as it ends. Also the current cease fire is identical to the one proposed on July 15th. 90% of the casualties could have been avoided if that one had been accepted.

Israel is killing protestors in the West Bank, eight last I heard so it may be more now. Do not pretend a Palestinian in the West Bank has near equal rights to a settler. To end the Palestinian deaths all Israel has to do is not bomb civilians and do all of the other many less collateral damaging options it's not taking, shock horror! If Hamas does stop and disarm, why the hell do you think another militant group won't see that what happens to Gaza will be exactly what happened to the West Bank - their land stolen and their right to self-govern trampled on - and incite an even more desperate and oppressed Gaza into open warfare, suicide bombers and all, this time without even the hope of a ceasefire as they'll have seen where talk of peace leads?

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As for the blockade. Its roots trace back to one conflict. When Hamas won the elections 3 things were asked of it. To renounce violence as a way to defeat Irael (if this conflict is an indication I would again argue it would have been in their own interest), to recognise that Israel has a right to exist and finally to agree to keep the deals so far agreed to in the peace process as agreed to by the PLO. They rejected all 3 and the US, UK, UE and Russia began an embargo against them. Later when Hamas and Fatah had a civil war and the fatah security forces were expelled or killed in Gaza both Egypt and Israel began the blockade. PS the blockade by Egypt has a lot more to do than just american money. Egypt distrusts Hamas because they support terrorist groups in the Sinai, they are believed to have helped a Hezbollah plot in egypt and because they are backed by Iran Egypt has concerns.

All dumb things (at least the second has been accepted as of 2006), not a reason to be continuing to bomb civilians though (yes this is a sticking point and yes you are still excusing it)! Would you like to defend the attack on the flotilla flagship now? Also you missed out the conflicting religion part of my post for Egypt's distrust of Hamas, too.

e: wow it is a lot of money though:

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@Illy- I dot really expect to win either. That said debate is also about exploring a topic not just deciding on it. I can see and have spoken about what I consider some of the faults in Israel, west bank settlements being th most egregious. I looked it up and yes before 2010 things like chocolate were apparently indeed kept out of Gaza by the Blockade. All I can say is that is remarkably stupid and pointless. I can see the flaws in Israel.

You seem fine with them, though?

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You seem unwilling or unable to see the flaws in Hamas.

They used suicide bombers, they killed a bunch of Palestinians, they ALSO are fighting to resist an occupying force with the blessing of their people (however counterproductive it may be) and are also much better than the ISIS-a-like alternative. Also they've killed less Palestinians than Israel.

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I would like to see you just once have you admit where you have over stepped the mark, I called you out on it and I was right, Hamas does not recognize Israel, has never agreed to give up on east Jerusalem or even the whole of Israel by your own quote that you found.

Oh look, as far back as 2006 Hamas haven't called for the destruction of Israel, look at that! Oh, but I've got better! The Arab Peace Initiative!

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Although a number of Israeli officials have responded to the Initiative with both support and criticism, the Israeli government has swiftly rejected the initiative, saying it was a "non-starter".[4] Then Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said the new plan cannot be accepted because it would replace UN resolutions 242 and 338, which call for negotiations.[5] In 2007, Benjamin Netanyahu, as opposition leader, as well as a number of Likud members, rejected the initiative outright.^ In 2009, President Shimon Peres expressed satisfaction at the "u-turn" in the attitudes of Arab states toward peace with Israel as reflected in the Saudi initiative, though he did qualify his comments by saying: "Israel wasn't a partner to the wording of this initiative. Therefore it doesn't have to agree to every word."^ The Palestinian Authority strongly supports the plan and Mahmoud Abbas officially asked U.S. President Barack Obama to adopt it as part of his Middle East policy.[6] Islamist political party Hamas, the elected government of the Gaza Strip, is deeply divided,[7] with most factions rejecting the plan.[1]

Turns out Hamas is more favourable towards peace than Israel is! But wait, there's more!

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(from http://en.wikipedia....n_Islamic_Jihad)The stated goal of Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad is to conquer Israel and replace it with an Islamist state.[16] Both groups reject the Oslo Accords and other plans for peace with Israel. Throughout the 1990s and 2000s, the two groups worked together to derail the peace process by attacking Israeli civilians.[17] Hamas undertook a ceasefire with Israel in August 2004. The Palestinian Islamic Jihad was unhappy with the ceasefire.[18][19] In September 2005, Hamas was criticized by Islamic Jihad for calling off rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza.

In 2008, Hamas publicly offered a long-term hudna (truce) with Israel if Israel agreed to return to its 1967 borders and to grant the "right of return" to all Palestinian refugees. In 2010, Ismail Haniyeh announced that Hamas would accept the outcome of a Palestinian referendum on a peace treaty with Israel even if the results were not in line with their ideology. This represented a departure from their earlier insistence that they would not be bound by any such result.[20] In 2012, Mousa Abu Marzook, a high-ranking Hamas official in competition with Haniyeh for Hamas' top leadership post, gave an interview in which he expressed a range of opinions, some of which differed from the organisation's actual stance. He said that Hamas will not recognize Israel and will not feel bound to understand a peace treaty negotiated by Fatah as a recognition of Israel, calling instead for a hudna (temporary truce). Abu Marzook echoed Haniyeh's demand that Palestinians should be given the unconditional right to return into what is now Israel proper.[21]

Is that sufficient for you?

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You speak of a Gaza without electricity but when I point out that Hamas damaged more of its own supply than Israel ever did you ignore this.

Huh, seems like there's only evidence of one line being hit by a Hamas rocket whereas six of the 10 lines from Israel are down, along with the power plant, water treatment plant, wells, pipelines, and reservoirs, among others. That last one is a pro-click, by the way. Tank shells taking out the treatment plant, lagoons spilling out over agricultural land, repair teams being stopped due to losses from Israeli strikes, 15,000 tons of solid waste entering the streets, 16-18,000 houses totally destroyed, 30,000 partial house destructions, 400,000 people internally displaced, 20 months for a contract for Israel to allow reconstruction, a bridge that hasn't been rebuilt since 2008, the denial of Gazan trade, all good stuff to read.

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You say that storing rockets in an UNWRA school is not a problem because the school was empty at the time?

Empty unoccupied building, buddy! You should be happy they didn't store them in a block of flats! Even if that wouldn't and hasn't stopped said block of flats being completely destroyed along with everything and everyone in it, repeatedly. Remind me, who shelled an occupied UNWRA school? After they contacted the IDF seventeen times with the co-ordinates to make sure they weren't shelled? Was it Israel? Oh wow, it was!

(too many quotes for one post, to be continued...)

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 09 August 2014 - 12:33 AM

[Illuyankas]

(...right now!)

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You say blind firing rockets at civilian targets is not a war crime?

You say it's worse than purposefully firing missiles at hospitals, because Israel is 'targetting militants' while killing thousands and Hamas is 'aiming' at civilians and scaring cats out of trees.

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You post an info-graphic that shows 3 tunnels clearly pointed at three Jewish towns and you say that its for capturing Israeli soldiers?

Text of address by Muhammad Al-Daif, General Commander of the Izz Ad-Din Al-Qassam Brigades:

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3. We have opted to confront and kill the enemy's armed troops and its elite soldiers rather than assault civilians in the neighbouring villages. This is despite the fact that the criminal enemy has been shedding the blood of civilians, perpetrating massacres and razing entire neighbourhoods to the ground levelling houses on top of the heads of their inhabitants whenever more of their soldiers are killed.

The sheer difference in Israeli deaths, civilian and military, sorta imply this too. You still haven't justified bombing civilians yet, either.

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By the way capturing soldiers and threatening them with harm or to bargain their release for gains is a war crime. So is denying them access to the red cross or correspondence with their families.

Sure. I mean, Gilad Shalit had a much nicer time then anyone Israel arrests, and his life is clearly worth over a thousand Palestinians, but sure. So, when is Israel going to release the hundreds of people they arrested for no reason during the search for the kidnappers of the three settler teenagers that started this whole mess? What good is the word of Israel when over forty of those arrested were those released in exchange for Shalit in the first place? Do they have correspondance with their families? I would like to know that, like if you can find a source showing that those arrested who obviously weren't involved in the kidnapping (and murder, though they didn't announce they knew the kids were killed by the splinter group offiliated with Hamas (but not actually Hamas, don't be stupid) days before the bodies were found) have the right to contact their families I'd love to see it.

Besides, you forget why it's unlikely to happen again - the Hannibal doctrine! You know, the decision made by the IDF that if there is a soldier being made a POW - oh wait Hamas, while fighting a war, can't take POWs they can only kidnap for some reason?!?! - if there's a soldier who's fallen into the careful hands of Hamas (who know that swapping one man for hundreds of their fellow countrymen is a worthwhile exchange that saves lives so they keep extra special care of them), if there's an IDF man being captured? He is to be killed immediately and as brutally as possible, along with all the people around him. That's why all the initial reports of captured IDF men were changed to killed in action, along with everything and everyone in that neighborhood. Israel military doctrine is that their soldiers are better off dead than captured, and if necessary they'll do it themselves. What heroes! What a moral boost!

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You say Hamas only seeks military targets? How can you possibly even make this claim!

I do not ignore their killing of civilians before this conflict, and I acknowledge the almost threat-less qassams are fired at civilian areas even though they cannot be aimed. I don't ignore and I do acknowledge that there is one side that launches airstrikes and shells regardless of whether there's even a whisper of long-left militant presence or certain fact of a civilian one, and it is the one you are excusing as hard as you can.

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You say Israel is not democratic when 10% of the parliament is Arab. It scores the highest in the middle east for democratic and press freedom. This women is in the Israeli Knesset https://en.wikipedia...ki/Haneen_Zoabi

Israel rules over a population without allowing them the ability to selfgovern. Israel will not be a democracy until Palestinians are either fully accepted into Israel with all the same rights and privileges that Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs and Israeli Christians have, or they leave them to govern themselves. Simple as that.

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Illy of course my point about Germany is absurd. So is your insistence that the casualty comparison between Israel and Palestinians has merit. Israel has an early warning system, it has the iron dome and by law it has a bomb shelter in every home. How this is a bad thing I have no Idea. Navi Pillay of the UN human rights council has criticized Amaerica for helping to fund the iron dome and points out that Gaza has received no such protection! Hamas rockets I will also grant you are shit but that does not excuse their killing intent or that they are targeted at civilians. I know how your government would and has responded to bombs being fired its way.

The bolded statement is where you're losing everyone, dude. How can you not understand that Israel is deliberately targeting areas while AT BEST careless of the civilian population? Israel has the ability, the power, to deal with Hamas without blindly killing innocent civilians, but they practictally pride themselves on it! What purpose does it serve to destroy all those Palestinian homes!? This one you answer, damn it. Especially after you pull this:

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I know how your government would and has responded to bombs being fired its way.

You fucking dare compare the Troubles with Gaza!? Do you see how much of Belfast we didn't leave in smoking ruin whenever the IRA's bombs detonated? Notice how much peace is happening up there? We've done some heinous shit but ending the mass bombings is one of the better things we've managed to do in the last fifty years. Don't even fucking try it. Seriously dude in comparisons of horrible unnecessary killings of innocent civilians Israel make what we pulled in Northern Ireland look less awful, this is not an analogy you want to make!

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By comparison the Gaza strip experiences population growth of 4% and as I have pointed out has a higher life expectancy, access to medical care and better employment than my own country. To answer you previous charge, I don't bring this out to dismiss the suffering of Gaza out of hand I mention it to point out that Gaza is not under Siege like some castle in ancient times and that false analogies fire up the blood but move us away from the truth of the issue.

I'm totally ignoring you pointing out that fallacious comparisons to the Holocaust are in fact fallacious, because yes, obviously, that's why I put them in a list of fallacious comparisons instead of my actual point. The truth of the issue is that living conditions that are better than some of the poorest nations in the world are irrelevant when they are that of a location where they cannot move without permission, they cannot eat without permission, they cannot find a place to sleep without permission (to rebuild that place after it was bombed or even from wear and tear), they cannot trade, they cannot govern, they cannot live without Israeli permission - a prison that has a supermarket is still a prison.

I have no real issue with your waiting for sources to be confirmed as it is a good policy. Propaganda is something both sides play with (I don't think anyone could deny the Israelis are better at it, though).


I guess my final statement on this is that Israel is absolutely pointlessly killing Palestinian civilians in what is at best wilful negligence and at worst a deliberate attempt to render living conditions in Gaza intolerable in a fashion and at a rate that doesn't alienate either the Israeli public or, more importantly, the US, whether out of imperialist, religious or a mix of said motivations. I would like to believe that they bomb these occupied buildings deliberately rather than out of incompetence, because an imperialist nuclear power is less scary than a stupid one, especially one unafraid of collateral damage. I believe there are other options to deal with this situation that don't endanger the lives of innocent civilians on both sides even if they do those in the military whose duty and purpose it is to put their lives on the line, because it's their job to, and that's right now without withdrawing or a two state solution. I believe that withdrawing to the '67 borders, removing all settlements and allowing the formation of a Palestinian state is the best path to peace available to Israel, and even if this new Palestine suicidally decides to turn around and attack Israel, it still has the military power to thwart both any possible attack they could muster for decades and any potential assault by surrounding Islamic states, though greatly reduced in possiblity due to said Palestinian statehood and the whole peace initiative thing. The absolute main thing I want to get across is that is it up to Israel to stop it, for only they have the ability to stop new settlements, prevent further bloodshed by talking with those factions inside Hamas willing to talk ceasefires and truces with them, and, you know, not shell hospitals et al. However, with the currently Israeli rightwing coalition, and the unwavering US verbal, munitionary and financial support thanks to the frankly unsettlingly effective Israeli lobbying efforts, it seems increasingly less and less likely.

As long as Israel remains A-OK with targeting civilians, everyone's fucked.




e: haha you can see me get less and less ahragragr and more calm as you go down the page

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 08 August 2014 - 09:48 PM