[Illuyankas]

Quote

‘if the Palestinians put down their arms there would be no war, If Israel puts down its arms there would be no more Israel’

Diplomacy has proven successful at reducing Hamas and other attacks to near-zero and ceasefires have been consistently broken by Israel. If Palestine laid down their arms, Israel would continue encroaching into their land until they were forced out, as they've been doing for decades, and we in the West would continue completely ignoring it. If Israel laid down their arms, they'd still be the most powerful military in the Middle East and at the slightest hint of aggression from its neighbours would just pick them up again. Nobody's saying Israel should disarm, they're saying they should stop hitting schools with airstrikes on the flimsiest of pretenses.

Quote

Re the Blockade:
A tricky situation. Israel ended the occupation of Gaza and there was no blockade. Then the Palestinians voted in Hamas, civil war broke out and Israel began a blockade. We can talk at length if it was morally dubious for Israel to act when the elections did not go their way. Still Hamas is hostile and unreasonable and Israel must act in its own interest. I maintain that Illy betrayed his own argument when he posts a quote by Hamas that offers a ten year ceasefire for Israel handing over all of the Palestinian territory and speaks of a phased liberation. Hamas are a terrorist organization. Israel blockades them because they have been building up rockets and tunnels for years. Egypt blockades them because they don’t trust Hamas either and they are now supporting terrorist groups in the Sinai. Hamas once caused a fuel crisis in Gaza because they refused to accept petrol from Israel and Egypt chocked of their illicit supply and demand Hamas trade for it above board. They do not have Palestinians interests at heart, they are anti-Israel. Israel still provides their power, they give them medical aid and food even as we speak. They blockade weapons. They blockade concrete (they get flack for this) and yet Hamas has built dozens of Km long tunnels lined with concrete into Israel that Illy says are bomb proof but they can’t build bomb shelters? I have said it already, they eat better, have better access to medicine, higher employment (though I will admit it’s not good) and a better life expectancy than my own and half the countries of the world. Israel is not choking the life’s blood from Gaza. Letting them have control of the airspace or unrestricted ports would make the blockade silly. Do we really think Hamas won’t buy tanks or better rockets if they could? A martin Luther or Ghandi in Gaza would accomplish more in a year then 50 years of armed ‘resistance’ have gotten the Palestinians.

Hamas is the one who is holding to the ceasefires they are involved in, Israel is the one who is breaking them and throwing peacetalks because the Palestinians came to the table with a unity government like they asked and killing over a thousand Gazans. If Israel is to continue occupying Gaza and the West Bank then they must act in their interest as well. Again, ten years of a blockade-free two state solution with no rampant oppression from the IDF would weaken Hamas' position more effectively than any number of shelled children's playgrounds that someone's friend told them their friend once saw a guy in a Hamas outfit nearby. If there's no threat of destruction how long would Hamas be able to keep power? Israel stops occupying them and the need for munitions to fight back drops instantly. Egypt's new secular government dislikes Hamas for their links with the previous Muslim Brotherhood government, the tunnels built that smuggled in supplies and food and power and water and building materials, yes, were mostly constructed beforehand (deep enough that airsrikes were acknowledged to be ineffective by the IDF, by the way, not bombproof and certainly not lined with cement). Why do you think it's alright for Israel to decide what they need and what they shouldn't? Why should Israel ban chocolate and coriander and all the other blockaded materials for them? And I'll say it again, bringing up people who may or may not be worse off is a distraction from the discussion and irrelevant. Gaza gets (not enough, but) more food than [country X] so we should ignore the fact a Palestinian is more likely to have his family blown to pieces than to receive a permit to visit the beach, that sounds right. If Hamas bought tanks then Israel would have an actual target to blow up that isn't a block of flats full of people, and that would be an action that an airstrike would actually be appropriate for! And non-violent protest works only if the other side cares about international opinion when it comes to massacring innocent civilians, and we have more than enough proof that Israel couldn't give a fuck.


Abyss: What would happen to Gaza if, say, Hamas was crushed by Israeli forces? Would things get better for them, or worse? Would a faction like Islamic Jihad that will not hold to ceasefires and would actually want to destroy Israel get into power? Would an organisation that wasn't labeled with 'terrorists' sweep up all of Hamas' bureaucrats currently huddling in refugee camps or the rubble of their own homes then take over and cease hostilities, and would Israel stop making settlements regardless? What's the endgame for the occupation of Palestine, where do you see the area in five years? Ten?

(also I've posted proof enough that the only side using human shields is Israel, and firing a rocket from an empty lot is not an excuse to level the hospital across the road without any warning at all - it is not the fault of the Gazans that the IDF will shell a children's playground, that's all on Israel; even if they were using human shields, that is not and will never be a reason to fire anyway)

Quote

Israel is far from blameless in this mess... the list of things they've could have done different/better is long and growing

1111+ unnecessary deaths and counting, yes.



Here's some of the latest info from Gaza:



source: http://www.haaretz.c...efense/1.607542

I always get annoyed that they never equate the number of rockets fired by Hamas and co. with the number of projectiles fired into Gaza by the IDF. Cause let me tell you, the latter is gonna be more than slightly higher.




e: http://www.democracy...e_a_palestinian

I'd forgotten the phrase 'telegenically dead' was coined, actually. Disgusting.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 29 July 2014 - 11:14 AM

[Cause]

Your Graph which I presume you accept as trustworthy proves:

Hamas dug 32 tunnels into Israel. (Justification to blockade Concrete)
-Please notice the tunnel that leads to sderot, the most bombed village in Israel. What do we think they were for?
-These tunnels were not built overnight, each indicates years of planning and an aggressive intent
-concrete tunnel! http://edition.cnn.c...a-tunnels-wolf/ and http://www.timesofis...n-gaza-tunnels/

Israel has intercepted 500 rockets that would otherwise have hit civilian targets, they only intercept ones of possible damaging courses. (Justification for military intervention)
-Disproportionate casualties are sensationalist but don't speak about the conflicts morality at all

Rocket fire dropped significantly after the start of ground operations. (Justification for ground invasion)



On a completely different note why do we still distinguish civilian deaths into the category of children, women and men. I can understand children to a point (Though I would say its still unnecessary unless to point out they are being targeted specifically or some such) but women? Are their lives worth more?

This post has been edited by Cause: 29 July 2014 - 11:28 AM

[Illuyankas]

Rest assured that if the IDF was solely targetting the tunnels in any effective way I would not be yelling about obscene civilian casualties as they wouldn't exist (occupation and blockade yelling would still happen though) and yes, we would have to see what the reaction is from Hamas regarding the destruction of these tunnels. So far they've attacked IDF soldiers but yes, it is a target they have an excuse to attack. Unlike...

Quote

Disproportionate casualties are sensationalist but don't speak about the conflicts morality at all

Israel bombed hospitals, schools, playgrounds and disability care homes whereas Hamas targets military forces and installations when they can target at all and not blindfire, please do not imply a cement-tipped tube powered by sugar and piss that is less powerful than the warning missiles used to let someone know their house is going to be destroyed because their cousin hates Israel is justification for innumerable airstrikes. The more moral side of a conflict is probably not the one with the 80% civilian kill rate.

Rocket fire is still higher than it was before Israel arrested 400 Palestinians and killed nine more while searching for the culprits behind the three kidnapped and murdered settler teenagers (who weren't Hamas but were said to be as justification for all this)

There is a tendency to label all male civilian casualties as 'militants'.


e:

Quote

Residents of Gaza City gather leaflets dropped into the streets by the Israeli military on Monday. Thousands of pieces of white paper listed the names of members of Hamas and its allies whom Israel claims to have killed since its offensive began. The leaflets say that the names listed are "those who thought they could face the might of the Israeli Defence Forces"

from: http://www.theguardi...-ceasefire-live

That's some skeevy shit.

e2: https://twitter.com/Mogaza NWS/NMS for dead children from another UNRWA school hit by an IDF airstrike

e3:

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 29 July 2014 - 12:27 PM

[D'iversify]

We need to get back to diplomacy but Hamas will continue to receive widespread support from Palestinians for their militaristic strategem so long as the fruits of diplomacy are so poor for Palestinians. Fatah has by and large settled for diplomatic measures but have had next to no concessions on settlements and control of territory in the West Bank. If Israel actually wants Hamas to lose credibility in Gaza and for the simmering West Bank conflict not to boil over, diplomacy has to be shown to work for the Palestinians. As it is, violent resistance seems to bring Palestinians more short-term attention and sympathy from the international community, even if it ultimately damages the case for the possibility of long-term peace. To make diplomacy work, the Americans need to put pressure on Israel to make concessions, rather than acting as the rather biased arbiter they have in previous attempts to reach a diplomatic agreement.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Illuyankas, on 29 July 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

etc...etc...etc...

I'd forgotten the phrase 'telegenically dead' was coined, actually. Disgusting.

Not much to contribute here, you guys are covering the various points of view well and I'm finding this thread a captivating (and thoroughly horrifying) read as I learn more and more about the subject.

I just had to chime in about the "telegenic dead" comment. I had no idea what it meant until I looked it up. That's a comment I'd expect to see in a reddit post, not in a public statement by the elected leader of Israel. It takes the dehumanization campaign against Hamas (and by extension Palestinians) to a new level. Not only are they "using human shields" and "putting rocket launchers in schools and hospitals"....now apparently Hamas places so little value on human life that they parade their dead around to garner international sympathy?

I'm unspeakably glad a comment like that backfired on him. Nobody with half a brain could take a comment like that seriously and not see right through to its true, deceitful intent. This regardless of one's views on the "who's right and who's wrong" debate.

[Studlock]

I think the vast majority of the this conversation is regardless of ones view of who's right and wrong. On one hand we have a powerful state-actor dropping bombs on non-combatants they have kept in siege for a long while and fools saluting it like it's all acceptable losses in the name of freedom or some bullshit and on the other hand we have non-recognized state-actor who's ineffective retaliation against said siege being painted by said saluting fools as self-promoting savages who are really to blame for the bombs being dropped on civilians. This is how we solve problems now, blame the powerless at the benefit of the powerful while kids on both sides go off and shot each other in the head. Clearly, morally speaking, one side is committing war crimes and the other is trying to survive in the worst fucking conditions.

This post has been edited by Studlock: 29 July 2014 - 05:28 PM

[Illuyankas]

Good article with links: http://www.salon.com...talking_points/

Gaza's port on fire: https://twitter.com/...6586752/photo/1

Video of an airstrike on the building housing Gazan media companies: http://www.bbc.co.uk...ialflow_twitter


I'll try to post links as and when I can here. Including images of what damage Hamas is doing too:



Thank goodness.




e: OK OK that isn't fair, let's take a brief look at what's happening with the Israeli government:

Recently:

Quote

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman criticized Israeli ministers on Tuesday for accepting an Egyptian proposal for a ceasefire with Hamas, and — in a thinly veiled attack on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s handling of the crisis — called on Israel to recapture Gaza, asserting that a truce would merely allow the Gaza-based terror group to replenish its stock and build more rockets

http://www.timesofis.../#ixzz38pxWvKDX

Provoking the response of:

Quote

Netanyahu rightly dismissed them as “background noise” and took the long overdue step of firing Deputy Defense Minister Danny Danon, one of the most prominent spokesmen of the extreme right. Fear for the integrity of his coalition is presumably preventing Netanyahu from sending similar letters of dismissal to Bennett and Lieberman.

http://www.haaretz.c...pinion/1.605378

Quote

Netanyahu issued veiled criticism of Liberman and Bennett in a press conference in Tel Aviv, saying that he would continue acting without “militancy and rashness.” His associates admitted that he could not fire Liberman or Bennett, because it would lead to his coalition coming apart.

http://www.jpost.com...strategy-362930

Quote

I think it's worth remembering that Netanyahu is fundamentally a conservative and not a radical rightist. He's been sucked into fighting this war because of public pressure and because he's too weak-willed to think of another way out. One of the problems is that Israel may keep half the Gaza Strip because it has no exit strategy -- but that shows the absence of a plan, not a deliberate plan (which was my original point):

Quote

Netanyahu's remarkable rise to prolonged political power in Israel, particularly in his extended second term, has been based on his impressive ability to position himself between Israel’s two poles: those who want peace with the Palestinians and those who want to consolidate control over the occupied territories. He is a supporter of the settler movement, but not a rabid one. Settlers and their leaders have frequently accused him of "silent" or "de facto" building freezes, and his government has demolished a number of wildcat settlement outposts (although it has also recognized many others).

He professes to be a proponent of a two-state solution, but both his policies and his rhetoric leave grave doubts about his commitment to that outcome. At a recent press conference, Netanyahu undermined any hopes that he is truly open to a real two-state solution. “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan,” Netanyahu said, effectively ruling out the establishment of a truly independent, sovereign, and viable Palestinian state. In other words, his vision of the long-term future between Israel and the Palestinians is the status quo, defined by occupation and the rule over another people deprived of rights and citizenship, extended indefinitely.

Netanyahu seems content to leave things basically as they are, tinkering on the margins with new settlements and other small changes that may have a profound cumulative effect, but only in the long run. Anything else would be too risky. To restrain the settlers would mean a confrontation with the far right. To go in for annexation would provoke a massive diplomatic crisis. Netanyahu prefers, instead, to just allow the possibility of a two-state solution to fade away slowly, but inexorably. Indeed, in spite of widespread psychological speculation about the influence of his late father, a noted anti-Arab extremist, and his wife, whose cantankerous personality has been well documented, Netanyahu seems very much to follow his own counsel, which is apparently driven by a belief that the less done on major issues, the better for him.

http://www.foreignaf...BnbWFpbC5jb20S1

And in case you thought the IDF and the Likud coalition were in lockstep:

Quote

In the flood of angry words that poured out of Israel and Gaza during a week of spiraling violence, few statements were more blunt, or more telling, than this throwaway line by the chief spokesman of the Israeli military, Brigadier General Moti Almoz, speaking July 8 on Army Radio’s morning show: “We have been instructed by the political echelon to hit Hamas hard.”

That’s unusual language for a military mouthpiece. Typically they spout lines like “We will take all necessary actions” or “The state of Israel will defend its citizens.” You don’t expect to hear: “This is the politicians’ idea. They’re making us do it.”

Admittedly, demurrals on government policy by Israel’s top defense brass, once virtually unthinkable, have become almost routine in the Netanyahu era. Usually, though, there’s some measure of subtlety or discretion. This particular interview was different. Where most disagreements involve policies that might eventually lead to some future unnecessary war, this one was about an unnecessary war they were now stumbling into.

http://forward.com/a...l#ixzz38pzuKhbs

None of this excuses their actions taken, but it may provide some answers as to why.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 29 July 2014 - 05:51 PM

[Illuyankas]

Oh, and another pretty good article:

Quote

You've got to hand it to Israeli spinners like Mark Regev. They are masters of PR. In fact, as the Independent's Patrick Cockburn revealed over the weekend, "the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe".

Let's be clear: I'm no fan of Hamas, a brutal and anti-Semitic group which has been accused by Amnesty International and other NGOs of human rights abuses against the people of Gaza and of war crimes against the people of Israel. Firing rockets into civilian areas isn't justified under international law, even if it is framed as part of a (legitimate) struggle against foreign military occupation.

Having said that, however, in recent days I've been debating supporters of Israel's latest assault on Gaza on radio and on Twitter and I've been astonished not just by the sheer number of fact-free claims made by those supporters, but also by their confidence, slickness and sheer message discipline. According to the pro-Israel, pro-IDF crowd, Hamas is to blame for everything.

This, of course, is utter nonsense. To quote the late US senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan: "You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts."

So, in a Moynihanian spirit, here are fact-filled, evidence-based rebuttals to the 11 main myths, half-truths and self-serving 'talking points' that are repeatedly pushed by various Israeli spokespersons, both on the airwaves and on social media:

1) The Gaza Strip isn't occupied by Israel

Boston Globe: "Israeli-imposed buffer zones.. now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza's total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three." Human Rights Watch: "Israel also continues to control the population registry for residents of the Gaza Strip, years after it withdrew its ground forces and settlements there." B'Tselem, 2013: "Israel continues to maintain exclusive control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has since it occupied the Gaza Strip in 1967."

2) Israel wants a ceasefire but Hamas doesn't

Al Jazeera: "Meshaal said Hamas wants the 'aggression to stop tomorrow, today, or even this minute. But [Israel must] lift the blockade with guarantees and not as a promise for future negotiations'. He added 'we will not shut the door in the face of any humanitarian ceasefire backed by a real aid programme'." Jerusalem Post: "One day after an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire accepted by Israel, but rejected by Hamas, fell through, the terrorist organization proposed a 10-year end to hostilities in return for its conditions being met by Israel, Channel 2 reported Wednesday.. Hamas's conditions were the release of re-arrested Palestinian prisoners who were let go in the Schalit deal, the opening of Gaza-Israel border crossings in order to allow citizens and goods to pass through, and international supervision of the Gazan seaport in place of the current Israeli blockade." BBC: "Israel's security cabinet has rejected a week-long Gaza ceasefire proposal put forward by US Secretary of State John Kerry 'as it stands'."

3) Israel, unlike Hamas, doesn't deliberately target civilians

The Guardian: "It was there that the second [Israeli] shell hit the beach, those firing apparently adjusting their fire to target the fleeing survivors. As it exploded, journalists standing by the terrace wall shouted: 'They are only children.'" UN high commissioner for human rights Navi Pillay: "A number of incidents, along with the high number of civilian deaths, belies the [Israeli] claim that all necessary precautions are being taken to protect civilian lives." United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, 2009: "The tactics used by the Israeli armed forces in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006. A concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations. The Mission concludes from a review of the facts on the ground that it.. appears to have been precisely what was put into practice."

4) Only Hamas is guilty of war crimes, not Israel

Human Rights Watch: "Israeli forces may also have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians, such as young boys, and civilian structures, including a hospital - laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes." Amnesty International: "Deliberately attacking a civilian home is a war crime, and the overwhelming scale of destruction of civilian homes, in some cases with entire families inside them, points to a distressing pattern of repeated violations of the laws of war."

5) Hamas use the civilians of Gaza as 'human shields'

Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor: "I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields." The Guardian: "In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods.. and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay." The Independent: "Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields." Reuters, 2013: "A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields."

6) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014

Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank [before the start of the Gaza conflict], Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."

7) Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel

Jewish Daily Forward: "Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket since [2012 Gaza conflict], and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013." International Crisis Group: "Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the November 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose.. As Israel (and Egypt) rolled back the 2012 understandings - some of which were implemented spottily at best - so too did Hamas roll back its anti rocket efforts."

8) Hamas provoked Israel by kidnapping and killing three Israeli teenagers

Jewish Daily Forward: "The [Israeli] government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas' West Bank operations.. Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren't acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas' Hebron branch -- more a crime family than a clandestine organization -- had a history of acting without the leaders' knowledge, sometimes against their interests." BBC correspondent Jon Donnison: "Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership.. Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government."

9) Hamas rule, not Israel's blockade, is to blame for the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip

US State Department cable: "Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis.. Israeli officials have confirmed.. on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge." The Guardian: "The Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza's daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010, according to files the defence ministry released on Wednesday under a court order.. The Israeli advocacy group Gisha.. waged a long court battle to release the document. Its members say Israel calculated the calorie needs for Gaza's population so as to restrict the quantity of food it allowed in."

10) The Israeli government, unlike Hamas, wants a two-state solution

Times of Israel: "[Netanyahu] made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank.. Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, 'I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.'"

11) All serious analysts agree it was Hamas, and not Israel, that started this current conflict

Nathan Thrall, senior Mid East analyst at the International Crisis Group, writing in the New York Times: "The current escalation in Gaza is a direct result of the choice by Israel and the West to obstruct the implementation of the April 2014 Palestinian reconciliation agreement." Henry Siegman, former national director, American Jewish Congress, writing for Politico: "Israel's assault on Gaza.. was not triggered by Hamas' rockets directed at Israel but by Israel's determination to bring down the Palestinian unity government that was formed in early June, even though that government was committed to honoring all of the conditions imposed by the international community for recognition of its legitimacy."

As always read the linked article for sources and more.


e: trying not to double or triple post but even if you think there's a cut in the video, would you have enough time to get your family and possessions outside down six floors and away from the collapsing building in time? You can't justify this shit.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 29 July 2014 - 07:02 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

What in the fuck caused the Israeli army to invade in the first place (this time)? This thing went from 0 to 60 in thirty seconds.

[Cause]

HoosierDaddy, on 29 July 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

What in the fuck caused the Israeli army to invade in the first place (this time)? This thing went from 0 to 60 in thirty seconds.

An escalation of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict began in 2014 following a series of events. Those events included the collapse of American-sponsored peace talks, attempts by rival Palestinian factions to form a coalition government, the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers, the subsequent kidnapping and murder of a Palestinian teenager, and increased rocket attacks on Israel by Hamas militants.[16] On 8 July 2014, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) launched Operation Protective Edge in the Gaza Strip.[17]

Following the kidnapping and murders of three Israeli teenagers in mid-June 2014, the IDF initiated Operation Brother's Keeper in search of them.[18] During the operation, in the following 11 days Israel's military killed five to ten Palestinians in clashes,[19][20][21] and arrested between 350 and 600 Palestinians,[19][22][23][24] including nearly all of Hamas' West Bank leaders.[25][26][27]

On the night of 6 July, an Israeli strike killed seven Hamas militants.[28] In response, Hamas' militants increased rocket attacks on Israel.[29] By 7 July, Hamas militants had fired 100 rockets from Gaza at Israeli territory and the Israeli Air Force had bombed several sites in Gaza.[30][31][32] Early on 8 July Israeli Air Force bombed 50 targets in the Gaza Strip.[33] Israel's military thwarted a militant infiltration from the sea.[34] That same day, Hamas declared that "all Israelis" had become "legitimate targets"[35][36] and insisted that Israel end all attacks on Gaza, release those re-arrested during the crackdown in the West Bank, lift the blockade on Gaza and return to the cease-fire conditions of 2012 as conditions for a ceasefire.[37]

On 13 July the Israeli military reported that more than 1,300 Israeli attacks had taken place, while more than 800 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel.[38] The next day, 14 July, Egypt announced a cease-fire initiative. The Israeli government declared acceptance for the proposal, and temporarily stopped hostilities in the morning of 15 July. However, all Palestinian factions announced they had not been consulted on the reported Egyptian initiative and were informed of the supposed proposal via the media, including Palestinian President Abbas.[39] Hamas rejected it in "its current form", as did other Palestinian factions.[39][40] On 16 July, Hamas and Islamic Jihad offered Israel a 10-year truce, with ten conditions, mostly centered on ending the blockade.[41]

https://en.wikipedia...93Gaza_conflict
https://en.wikipedia...agers#Aftermath

[HoosierDaddy]

For fucks sake, just leave each other alone. You're not fucking Africa.

Hamas sucks. Israel is a douchebag. Realize both of these things and split the fucking country with Jerusalem as neutral territory.

Do we need a fucking Berlin/Vienna style split here?

[Terez]

HoosierDaddy, on 29 July 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

For fucks sake, just leave each other alone. You're not fucking Africa.

Sly burn? Awkward.

[HoosierDaddy]

Terez, on 29 July 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 29 July 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:

For fucks sake, just leave each other alone. You're not fucking Africa.

Sly burn? Awkward.

Poor Africa is still dealing with the European split with no help from outside. The ME didn't need any help.

[Illuyankas]

Shujayea: Massacre at Dawn

22 minutes of footage and interviews from the heavy fighting in Shujaeya that killed however many hundreds. Not Work Safe, Not Mind Safe.

[Obdigore]

Illuyankas, on 29 July 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

Hamas is the one who is holding to the ceasefires they are involved in, Israel is the one who is breaking them and throwing peacetalks

Illy, I agree with most of what you have been saying, but this is incorrect. Both sides have broken humanitarian (and other) ceasefires. Honestly, what needs to happen is the UN needs to declare a humanitarian crisis in GAZA, go in, remove the fucking weapons Hamas is using, and then tell Israel to get the fuck back to their '67 borders, because under INTL law, territory cannot be gained as an aggressor in a war. (Good luck enforcing that, though).

I'd personally suggest shooting both HAMAS leadership (who are currently sitting in a hotel in QATAR for 'diplomatic talks' and Israeli leadership into the sun, but that isn't going to happen.

[Illuyankas]

If you can find me a source to them breaking a peace talk they agreed to (and that wasn't arbitrarily added to without their input, like the extra 4 hours Israel wanted to add onto the initial 12 hour one) and that wasn't set up as a fait accompli between, say, Israel and Egypt, then I'll gladly amend my statement.

I don't think the government of Palestine should be disarmed, as every sovereign nation deserves the ability to defend itself, and regardless of whatever Obdi can find (I hope he's wrong but I'm going to assume he's not because the world is a horrible place) Hamas have a better track record on keeping ceasefires than all the other militant groups in the Gaza Strip (including the IDF! Haha it's a bombing civilians joke), so for now giving the legally elected government the ability to lock down all splinter group rocket and mortar fire would work better for keeping the peace. Until the situation changes and they vote them out, that's Hamas. For now.

That said, I'm all for firing both side's leadership into the sun.

[Gothos]

So there's a 72-hour truce starting today... and already Israel shelled Rafah, with between 4 and 40 dead being reported. Death toll now estimated at 1440 on the Palestinian side. All this is making is more recruits for terrorist organizations...

This post has been edited by Gothos: 01 August 2014 - 10:36 AM

[Illuyankas]

Footage from Shuja'iya shelling (not pleasant)




Letter by Brian Eno about Gaza:

http://davidbyrne.co...of-civilization

[Illuyankas]

I was not expecting this:



context: the reaction of Palestinians to the general competence of ISIS and how they regard Palestine and Israel through a freaking Monty Python filter, the starkest palate cleanser

e: seriously the [media] tags can't handle https:// !?




e2: Oh wow:



Someone literally took the time to replace the Iron Cross with the Star of David and no one noticed? Did the guy who edited the images have even an ounce of selfawareness!?

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 02 August 2014 - 04:37 PM

[Cause]

I will try and respond to this thread properly soon. In the meantime a question and some statements.

Gothos and Illy, who do you hold responsible for breaking the latest ceasefire? The UN and US both seem to agree that it was Hamas.

Illy please stop with the irrelevant rhetoric. I can post pictures of 5 star hotels in Gaza and the west bank, I could post pictures of Sderot or suicide bombings. It would be an emotive way to win points but means very little in the context of this debate. We all know Israel is hardly suffering in this war, posting pictures of cute stories about injured owls is beside the point. If you want Israel to just sit behind the iron dome and do nothing make that argument, don't reduce this debate to the absurd. As for the Jewish Fascists, they shame themselves, their parents and me by their actions. They are stupid. I could post about Jewish voices for peace who oppose Israel, I can find you a Jewish sect who attended a holocaust cartoon expo in Iran and who wish for the destruction of Israel, I can show you a Jewish political cartoonist in my country who regularly draws Israeli politicians in Nazi uniforms. I can show you the son of a Hamas founder who takes Israels side and other Palestinians who say Hamas is the worst thing to ever happen to them. Their opinions are no more or less strong for them being Jewish or Palestinian. The thoughts or actions of any individual count for little. The actions of the whole decide.

Lastly just as a quick reply to those letters. Israel is a racist theocracy? With that statement alone the letters were reduced to irrelevance. Up to 35% of Israelis are atheist. An additional 30% of Jews describe themselves as secular Jews meaning they wont go as far as saying they don't believe god exists but they maybe attend shul 1-5 times a year. Israel has freedom of religeon, it has full rights for non jewish citizens and has I think about 12 arab members of the knesset. Some who even campaign on the platform of ending Israel a a jewish state. Israel is a jewish state to the degree that England is a Christian state, its also a jewish state to the extent that England is an English state. Jews have a weird ability to be both a race, religion and culture together and sometimes apart. This war is not a religious war though it sometimes has religious aspects, its not a race war though often the races are different (Though many jews and Palestinians have a proven shared genetic ancestory).