[Terez]

This episode was disappointing for some reason which I am not quite sure of. Perhaps because they have reached the point of being unable to juggle all the plotlines in each episode and still make the plot move. I think in the past it's been rare for any more than one or two main characters to have the episode off; now we have episodes where several of them are off, and certain plotlines are dragging. The Dorne line is going badly. Cersei's line seems rushed but I think it is on pace to end nicely, but I don't know if Dorne can be salvaged. They had better turn up the Doran, and quickly. With Jaime there, it could be interesting.

I think I was also hoping that they would skip the slaver thing with Jorah and Tyrion. I don't know what I was thinking; that's an important experience for Jorah at least. I am also starting to think the photo of Tyrion sitting with Dany was another gag along the lines of Lena Headey's stone heart. I doubt they will breeze through that all that in four episodes. Maybe I am wrong.

This episode had no Jon, no Dany, no Stannis, only a smidge of Jaime, and of course no Bran, who is out for the whole season.

I am doing a reread, and I was reminded of something I'd realized before and forgotten: it's pretty certain Lyanna went with Rhaegar of her own free will. Ned made it very clear to Arya that Lyanna's early death had been a result of her willfulness (he was comparing them). He even repeated it. If it was childbirth that caused her death, as seems to be the case, then she must have gone with Rhaegar willingly, and Ned knew it.

I realize there are a bunch of other clues in that direction, and I read one earlier in AGOT which I have already forgotten, but that one is sharp.

[worry]

I actually don't think most of the storylines are dragging, and feel most have been sped up. Maybe Season 4's natural glut of content makes 5 seem slow, but it's not really any slower than the first three IMO. I do agree that the Dorne scenes are off balance largely because the Sand Snakes ain't all that. So yah more Doran would improve it a whole lot, especially more with him and Areo doing some character stuff (I would say their scenes, while solid, have been nothing BUT blatant plot, unfortunately. It'd do to have a few Stannis/Davos-type scenes between them).

Anyway, Sansa was great, Arya was interesting, and making Bronn sing was a fun bit of meta humor. They even gave Jorah's consistently pained expression a pretty good reason to be there. A little worried that Bronn got slashed by one of the Snakes though.

[Traveller]

Is there anything definite on the return of Thoros? The books were pretty unsubtle at hinting that Stannis' sword wasn't the Lightbringer that Mel said it was.. Aemon or someone saying it gave off no heat and such, whereas Thoros had a flaming sword and ressurection powers.

I always wondered what would happen if Melisandre met Thoros.. and what she'll then think of Stannis, if he's still around at that point.

[Kartoolian Spider Squisher]

This episode really makes me question why I devote any time to the show.

1. Arya - The show is both moving too fast and too slow through her arc. The FM aren't adequately explained, but so far this is the least of the problems with this episode.

2. Jorah&Tyrion - Ser Bear seems to not care about infecting Tyrion. Black slavers.... They go to Mereen because......reasons.

3. King's Landing - Cersei is still sane. Tommen is the literal interpretation of the Cowardly Lion. Squires totally dress the knights they serve. Are the Kingsguard hood ornaments? Littlefinger's plan becomes even more convoluted. Margery wasn't setup by Cersei........

4. Dorne - Words really can't describe the train wreck that is For me.

5. Sansa - So take book Sansa and turn her into book Jeyne Poole all to redeem Theon................. Where are the Northern lords?

All in all, I seriously question why I still watch what is frequently becoming the worst hour of television of 2015.

[Ceda Cicero]

Dorne is embarrassingly bad to watch right now. Every single thing about the Dornish sequences was just God awful last night. The Jaime/Bronn chemistry, which was pretty solid in previous episodes, was completely overcooked in this one, and Bronn is apparently just comic relief now. The Sand Snakes (who were ridiculously, stupidly overhyped to begin with) are terrible; in particular, I feel like I catch Obara acting whenever she delivers a line. Even the fight sequence in the Water Gardens looked ridiculous; just a bunch of too-fast shots of Bronn staggering drunkenly around. Why were the Water Gardens suddenly completely empty? How dumb was it that five people are slinking around the bushes with headwraps on in the middle of the goddamn afternoon? How incredibly over-manufactured is this plot when we're meant to believe the Sand Snakes and Jaime/Bronn head for Myrcella at the exact same second? And who thought abducting her in broad daylight right out from under Doran's nose was a good idea?

So so so so so bad.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

The only shining light this season is Arya. The rest is all cliched and overwrought.

[Traveller]

Yeah he gets through loads, doesn't he? He still worships the Lord of Light and has weird powers though.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 18 May 2015 - 04:11 PM

[Terez]

Melisandre already met him in the show, though he didn't have a flaming sword. She did learn how he brought Beric Dondarrion back to life.

On the interwebz, this might be the most hated episode in the history of the show. Most of the complaints were about Sansa, with Dorne in second place, but that wasn't all. And we're talking about show-only folks here.

[Avatar]

Quote

This episode really makes me question why I devote any time to the show.<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);"><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);">1. Arya - The show is both moving too fast and too slow through her arc. The FM aren't adequately explained, but so far this is the least of the problems with this episode.<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);"><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);">2. Jorah&Tyrion - Ser Bear seems to not care about infecting Tyrion. Black slavers.... They go to Mereen because......reasons.<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);"><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);">3. King's Landing - Cersei is still sane. Tommen is the literal interpretation of the Cowardly Lion. Squires totally dress the knights they serve. Are the Kingsguard hood ornaments? Littlefinger's plan becomes even more convoluted. Margery wasn't setup by Cersei........<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);"><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);">4. Dorne - Words really can't describe the train wreck that is For me.<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);"><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);">5. Sansa - So take book Sansa and turn her into book Jeyne Poole all to redeem Theon................. Where are the Northern lords? <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);"><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19.5px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252);">All in all, I seriously question why I still watch what is frequently becoming the worst hour of television of 2015

I'm with you on this, I'm afraid. Haven't seen yesterday's episode, but the ones before have been the worst of the series. To bad, considering that season 4 was terrific.

[Binder of Demons]

I had been quite enjoying the season so far, but this episode was almost entirely without merit, save maybe for Tyrion and Jorah having their chat. Some of Arya's scenes were ok.

But the Dorne bits were terrible shite to be honest, and seemed the most rushed and badly thought out (and acted) parts of the series so far. Every part of that scene with the Sand Snakes and Jaime and Bronn was awful.

I'm nowhere near as down on the show as some people seem to have suddenly got, but I think this episode really was putting the parts in place for the rest of the season. So there's a good chance that things will improve markedly from next week on.

[worry]

I dunno what people's problems are with Sansa. I know the show has blown it with rape scenes for the sake of dark storytelling and that's a big problem, but this particular scene was entirely logical -- and for a series consistently praised for putting human elements in the foreground and supernatural stuff in the background, this was maybe the most down-to-earth, realistic, historical marriage bed as brutal scene of male domination acted out depiction the show's done. Maybe without the baggage of the screw-ups it'd be taken differently? I dunno.

[Terez]

Here is one example that just showed up in my Facebook via a friend:

http://www.themarysu...ame-of-thrones/

[Traveller]

That was... underwhelming.

You really can't make a show that relies on the last 15 minutes of the season finale to keep people watching. Dorne is a mess.

And with this season, there isn't even a 'high point' from the books to look forward to. If they're going to make it up themselves, fine, but at least make it watchable.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 20 May 2015 - 05:54 AM

[Terez]

Traveller, on 18 May 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

You really can't make a show that relies on the last 15 minutes of the season finale to keep people watching.

And with this season, there isn't even a 'high point' from the books to look forward to. If they're going to make it up themselves, fine, but at least make it watchable.

I suspect they are planning on making the battle of Winterfell the high point, ending with the Jon cliffhanger. There is however a possibility they're saving that battle for a cliffhanger too, and they're going to make Dany's first dragonride their climax.

We can already be sure that's part of the climax based on the name of episode 9 and some of the bit casting, but I hope there's more to it and that they somehow manage to make the battle epic. They haven't yet released the name of episode 10 but some of the casting is listed, and it includes all the Winterfell folk including Asha/Yara. I don't know how accurate IMDB is, though; lots of roles are definitely missing. Margaery and Loras aren't listed for next week, and they were in the preview.

I would expect to see Cersei's walk of shame in episode 8. Kevan is cast for episode 10. Apparently Tommen calls on him. Maybe they will send Cersei back to Casterly Rock after all. In any case I expect that episode 9 will skip King's Landing.

[amphibian]

There's a bit of "too quick on the draw" with these hot takes.

The show purposely presents itself as a long-running narrative. We have not yet seen what happens to Sansa in the remainder of the season and thus... we can't really judge what the impact/narrative utility/gratuituousness of the Ramsay marriage consummation/rape scene is.

I'm not saying we need to finish the entire show in order to judge how pieces of it are executed, but we do need to know how Sansa is treated in the rest of the season to know what this particular scene means to the character.

[Traveller]

I wouldn't presume that anyone who has read Grrm or Erikson to be 'quick on the draw' Amph.. we all know how these long game plans work.

Yes, Sansa will probably exact her revenge of sorts down the road - but in the case of Sansa, she doesn't need to be given yet another reason. For me, it reminded me of the murder of Robs pregnant wife - something not in the books, not necessary as the death of Rob and Cat was shock enough, and seemingly added just to turn it up to 11 for the sheer hell of it.

It just looks a bit lazy to me. Added scenes like the one with Stannis and Shireen are new and add something. Another brutal scene? Not so much. It's not exactly a mystery what that event will 'mean to the character.'

This post has been edited by Traveller: 19 May 2015 - 06:30 AM

[Cause]

What I am finding interesting is how people who have not read the books are reacting to the TV show. Now the two are becoming quite divergent so maybe their view points are valid but I dont think in each case that's true. Still the TV show unlike the books has not quite properly shown that Stannis is not a great guy and wuld rule the Seven Kingdoms like a tyrant with an iron fist. Also they have not shown just had out of her depth and badly Khaleesi rules. This has led to a number of from my point of view (I read the books) mistaken impressions.

Now the TV show definitely went out of its way with the Shireen scene to show that Stannis is not that bad and I think eventually we will see how badly things are going for Khaleesi but I just wish someone would wake up and realise she is not doing that well.

Terez, on 18 May 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

Here is one example that just showed up in my Facebook via a friend:

http://www.themarysu...ame-of-thrones/

Trigger Warnings. I just saw my first one. Amazing. Also she speaks of theons torture in a matter of fact tone in the same article in which she screams about Sansa?

This post has been edited by Cause: 19 May 2015 - 11:54 AM

[amphibian]

Traveller, on 19 May 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:

I wouldn't presume that anyone who has read Grrm or Erikson to be 'quick on the draw' Amph.. we all know how these long game plans work.

Yes, Sansa will probably exact her revenge of sorts down the road - but in the case of Sansa, she doesn't need to be given yet another reason. For me, it reminded me of the murder of Robs pregnant wife - something not in the books, not necessary as the death of Rob and Cat was shock enough, and seemingly added just to turn it up to 11 for the sheer hell of it.

It just looks a bit lazy to me. Added scenes like the one with Stannis and Shireen are new and add something. Another brutal scene? Not so much. It's not exactly a mystery what that event will 'mean to the character.'

It is imperative that we see what happens to Sansa in the next few episodes left in the season in order to understand how the writers put the narrative together (as they write mostly in blocks dividing the seasons up, rather than the whole show at once).

It could be that a pregnant-by-Ramsay-Bolton Sansa is important. It could be something else. Or it could be an entirely gratuitous thing done to turn things up to 11. We have to see what the rest of the episodes bring us - although right now, it does have the flavor of gratuity rather than narrative importance. The way GRRM wrote the scene, I do think it was gratuitous and it's one reason why I don't like the book series all that much.

I don't agree that the murder of Talisa, Robb's pregnant wife, was done just to turn things up to 11. I think it was done to complete the destruction of the life and legacy of a person most people who watched the show cared about in Robb. Talisa and the baby-that-never-was were part of how people developed empathy for Robb beyond his being the son of Ned and Catelyn and a contender for kingship.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 19 May 2015 - 02:52 PM

[LinearPhilosopher]

So finally got around to watching the episode. Was ok, the ending seems to have done much in the controversy creation area. Tonmen makes louis XVI seem competent. On the one hand you dont want to be making matyrs of these fanatics, at the same time you can't let them bully you around.

So on the one hand, the whole rape scene is something that merely needed to be hinted at, not "shown" and it does seem to be a kind of twisted lets do crazy shit. Gratuitous boob shots are one thing, this another.

On the other hand, this show isn't exactly pg 13, we have torture scenes, scene of violence with often gratuitous violence (mountain vsoberyn), is it really that shocking or surprising? Where was the outrage at those theon scenes? I'm given the impression that the argumentation could be broken down into, "violence is ok, but rape isn't" which shocks me as if you are to condemn one, shouldn't you also condemn the other? Maybe this is merely the straw that broke the camels back, or maybe it a symptom of hypersensitivity towards a specific issue. I can't tell. Personally i don't much care for either character so it didn't elicit any kind of response in me.

Not only that but in article linked above said theon torture was barely covered and talks of sansa plight as if it was front and center... I don;t think that comparison has much merit.