[Abyss]

D, on 18 July 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

Abyss, on 18 July 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

D, on 18 July 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Abyss, on 18 July 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

It IS ok to read the book and make up our own minds, peoples.

I appreciate Pat's informed views, but when all's said and done they're just that.

Yup, and that's why I want to know if I can slot this in before TCG. Maybe I'll read Assail for the first time as part of a big re-read where I'm not even letting it be last and my expectations hopefully won't be unreasonably high?

Given some of the TCG related events in B&B, and assuming you mean to read B&B before Assail, i'd be reluctant to reco this reading order because either B&B or Assail are likely to spoil TCG at least a little.

I'm not so sure about that. Does B&B really spoil TCG at all? Knowing that one of the Jade Strangers has been diverted to Jacuruku doesn't really ruin waiting to find out what happens to the other ones. In fact, if you take Tayschrenn's mutterings about convergences happeneing far away as a bit of prophecy, you could even pretend OST and B&B take place a bit before the TCG finale, no?

You could but there is ref in B&B to what's happening in TG with the various other CG chunks ... it's not explicit but it's there, and otoh, wtf is going on in B&B would be less clear without having read TCG.

[pat5150]

Not sure reading Assail before or after reading TCG makes any sort of difference. To be honest, I've hooked a few fantasy readers on The Malazan Book of the Fallen and so far I've been reticent to "encourage" them to read anything by ICE. Based on the underwhelming and disappointing way this final volume turned out, unless they're big fans like most people here, I'd tell them to steer clear of the ICE sequence. . . :/

Patrick

[Spoilsport Stonny]

So in the released chapter one, where the guy on the boat gets burned by ice...is that guy supposed to be us, the readers? Getting burned by ICE?

[Gorgon]

I don't understand all the negativity really. We got a great run concluding in the crippled god. Anything else is an added bonus that helps to flesh out the world of Wu.

I personally enjoy reading anything malazan and i think i always will.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Complaining about things on the internet is one of liife's greatest pleasures. We're all superfans or we wouldnt be here. Digging beyond the fact that a book takes place in a beloved universe is done out of love and a feeling of frustration that perhaps what we were led to believe was going to be a banana split but ends up being a box of stale chicklets is my right. And i loved Blood and Bone.

[Overactive Imagination]

blackzoid, on 18 July 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

I am deeply perplexed by everyones praise for RoTCG.
Its the worst book in the entire Malazan cycle. By a good margin.

Personal tastes do vary I guess. Because I found it unspeakably bad. And I've read it 3-4 times. Becasue I'm a Malazan fan and we love rereads.
If Assail is like OST and BaB.....I am delighted.

yeah i also found RotCG to be really bad. i did like stonewielder, and a lot of nok and ost. didn't even finish blood and bone.

thanks for this thread too... saved me $30.

can't wait for fall of light!!! at least that one's guaranteed to be good.

[Abalieno]

Gorgon, on 18 July 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

I don't understand all the negativity really. We got a great run concluding in the crippled god. Anything else is an added bonus that helps to flesh out the world of Wu.

Yes, but this definitely NOT what both Erikson and Esslemont wanted to do. Erikson always explained there were two sides to the story, and Esslemont's books were never intended to be minor sidetracks, or optional.

The plan was that Esslemont would catch up and so prop up his side of the story so that both could stand together by the end, almost equal. Now Esslemont had enough time to realize his side of the story as it was originally intended, and it doesn't look like they can stand equal at all.

And as I said, since I've not read this, I'm not commenting the quality, but just the structure of the whole deal. Which is deliberate and not a case of "I tried my best".

If I had to be cynical it's as if Esslemont didn't get from the public what he expected, and he became disaffected with Malazan, so that he had to write the books just because he was already bound by a contract.

This post has been edited by Abalieno: 19 July 2014 - 04:05 AM

[Werthead]

pat5150, on 17 July 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Just finished the book. . .

It was a good ending. Not great, but good. In no way a fitting end to the Malazan saga, however.

I'm a bit puzzled by the way the book has been marketed as the end of the Malazan saga. It's just the final volume in the six-book 'Novels of the Malazan Empire' sequence. There will be books set post-Assail, most notably Erikson's Toblakai Trilogy.

To my knowledge, ICE has no plans for any epilogue books, only floating the possibility of some prologue volumes focusing on backstory.

[tiam]

Gorgon, on 18 July 2014 - 09:52 PM, said:

I don't understand all the negativity really. We got a great run concluding in the crippled god. Anything else is an added bonus that helps to flesh out the world of Wu.

I personally enjoy reading anything malazan and i think i always will.

A few things

I will buy this book the day it comes out and shut down my life until I finish it. I have done this with every Malazan book. I will finish it and then undoubtedly begin to reread it. The only Malazan book I havnt been able to do this with was BaB which, despite the ancient jungle being a refuge for ancient entities plotline, I couldnt stand.

We should not have to be grateful to ICE as an 'added bonus' to the main arc. He is a good author who undoubtedly loves his universe and wants to do well by it. He is paid very well to write these books and we all pay good money to read them. It is not a case of 'oh well it doesnt matter if there not that good because we have the main arc. ICE is trying his best' as that cheapens ICE as an author. He not some bumbling side kick to SE he is the co-founder of this world.

We can, and should, hold him up to the same standard as SE and if he doesnt meet that standard then we can discuss its drawbacks here, on a site dedicated to discussing all things Malaz.

As Pat said were all super fans who have done multiple series rereads.

[Ribald]

For someone who said they weren't going to review the book, saying that this was a series of updates and reader reports is a fig leaf and you should be ashamed of yourself Pat.

You were given a book on the condition that you held off writing about it and you just couldn't help yourself.

Not only that, you listed a whole series of aspects and plot lines about the book that for those of us waiting to read it fresh have thus far avoided, without even the common decency to describe them as spoilers.

You got the book before everyone else, you are in a position of knowledge before everyone else, but you are not the arbiter of all that is good and great.

Though this is not quite as bad as when you essentially ruined the major twist of Crack'd Pot Trail simply because you didn't like it.

I would humbly suggest that there is more than one reason why ICE's publisher may not have wanted you to write a review before the book was launched.

As for everyone else who has jumped on the bandwagon criticising ICE, moaning and bewailing how bad his writing is, you haven't even read the book yet. Can you at least wait until you read it before you get the knives out like some approximation of civilised people?

ICE and SE write in the same universe, in the same world, but are very different writers. If you don't like Cam's books have at least the common courtesy to comment with some respect. No one is saying you have to like them, but whining like a child that it didn't meet your expectations or answer the questions that you wanted answered smacks of all that is wrong with fandom. This claiming ownership over the author's world and complaining that they didn't write what you wanted.

As has already be noted in this thread, some people liked Blood and Bone and a number of the other ICE books. Some more than others. Yet when each was released there was almost an overwhelming negativity about ICE's writing, and major complaining about each book. Check back through the early threads and you see it. Yet as time moved on people thought about ICE's books and writing and found there was generally a lot in it they liked. In fact, a great number of people who had initially very negatively commented on the books suddenly found there was lots in them to really like and enjoy.

If you didn't like it, then fine, that is your opinion. But because you didn't like it does not mean that ICE is a bad writer. It simply means that you didn't like the book.

I am really becoming ashamed to be part of this forum.

[Illuyankas]

You can like objectively bad things and dislike objectively good things. Just because you like it doesn't mean ICE is a good writer, either. I am willing to be surprised, to hope that Assail will be the book of ICE's that I'll read more than once, but pattern recognition is a thing. Making a forum a hugbox is toxic to discussion and criticism is not inherently awful, even criticism you don't agree with. And if you're going to accuse us of 'whining like children' about spending money on books we'd have gone to a library for if it wasn't for their shared setting and then talk about being ashamed of us, then you can sod off.

[Ribald]

Illy, I made no comment about saying that you can't criticise ICE, in fact I think I said that we should be free to like or dislike the book, but that we should wait until we had read it before jumping on a band wagon.

I also said that even if you dislike it then that doesn't mean that you have to be rude. It is perfectly possible to comment critically, and civilly about books that you don't like.

I never said that it had to be a hug fest. I never said that everyone should love the books. I never said that ICE was the greatest author out there.

I simply was objecting to people jumping on a bandwagon and being rude about a book they haven't read and an author who most of us have enjoyed reading.

I love the series, I love the world, and I used to love the forum, but the constant badmouthing of ICE is wearing. Especially as it has become a recurring feature of the site.

[Illuyankas]

I just find it funny you're calling critics children and approximations of civilised people and then also rude.

Do you really think everyone complaining here is only doing so just because Pat said it wasn't great?

[Ribald]

Not at all, but he is the only one who has read it... so it seems a little strange to be passing judgement on a book before you have read it.

Unless of course a bunch of people have actually read it, in which case I apologise.

[worry]

I'd like to get to the root of this. Is shame a common thread throughout your life, would you say? Do you find yourself wracked with emotions you can't control, at odd or inappropriate times, particularly as a result of events or behaviors to which you've made no personal contribution?

[D'rek]

Ribald, on 20 July 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

For someone who said they weren't going to review the book, saying that this was a series of updates and reader reports is a fig leaf and you should be ashamed of yourself Pat.

You were given a book on the condition that you held off writing about it and you just couldn't help yourself.

Not only that, you listed a whole series of aspects and plot lines about the book that for those of us waiting to read it fresh have thus far avoided, without even the common decency to describe them as spoilers.

You got the book before everyone else, you are in a position of knowledge before everyone else, but you are not the arbiter of all that is good and great.

Though this is not quite as bad as when you essentially ruined the major twist of Crack'd Pot Trail simply because you didn't like it.

I would humbly suggest that there is more than one reason why ICE's publisher may not have wanted you to write a review before the book was launched.

As for everyone else who has jumped on the bandwagon criticising ICE, moaning and bewailing how bad his writing is, you haven't even read the book yet. Can you at least wait until you read it before you get the knives out like some approximation of civilised people?

ICE and SE write in the same universe, in the same world, but are very different writers. If you don't like Cam's books have at least the common courtesy to comment with some respect. No one is saying you have to like them, but whining like a child that it didn't meet your expectations or answer the questions that you wanted answered smacks of all that is wrong with fandom. This claiming ownership over the author's world and complaining that they didn't write what you wanted.

As has already be noted in this thread, some people liked Blood and Bone and a number of the other ICE books. Some more than others. Yet when each was released there was almost an overwhelming negativity about ICE's writing, and major complaining about each book. Check back through the early threads and you see it. Yet as time moved on people thought about ICE's books and writing and found there was generally a lot in it they liked. In fact, a great number of people who had initially very negatively commented on the books suddenly found there was lots in them to really like and enjoy.

If you didn't like it, then fine, that is your opinion. But because you didn't like it does not mean that ICE is a bad writer. It simply means that you didn't like the book.

I am really becoming ashamed to be part of this forum.

If you didn't want to read Pat's commentary as he went through the advance edition (whether that be because you fear spoilers or because you don't want to know any early impressions) you could have simply not come into the Assail sub-forum until you finish reading the book. This is no different than if you were currently between MT and tBH and you wandered into the tBH sub-forum, and then complain about reviews and spoilers in there. It's not like Pat's first post in the thread contained any information about the book, either. You had to read the first post of Pat saying that he would be posting his impressions later in the thread, then you had to read through the entire thread to find those impressions... I would call this your fault for upsetting yourself.

[Abyss]

Overactive Imagination, on 19 July 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

...
thanks for this thread too... saved me $30...

Seventeen (or so) books, sixteen THOUSAND (or so) pages, and that's all it takes?


...for reals?

[tiam]

Ribald, on 20 July 2014 - 11:32 PM, said:

This claiming ownership over the author's world and complaining that they didn't write what you wanted.


If you didn't like it, then fine, that is your opinion. But because you didn't like it does not mean that ICE is a bad writer. It simply means that you didn't like the book.

I am really becoming ashamed to be part of this forum.

This is where I wholeheartedly disagree. No one has claimed ownership of anything. It reminds me of that quote from Erikson (I think) about the nature of artist and critic and how the credit belongs to the man getting dirty in the sands of the arena not to the man criticising his performance or something like that. Its bullshit.

We, the people who buy his books, are discussing the negative mini review of a book most of us have been looking forward to since MOI. Pats reviews have been near enough spot on (IMO) about ICEs books and he is well respected on this site. ICEs books have been in steady decline for a while with most people being displeased with the vague nature of BaB plot points while agreeing that the writing has improved as ICE has written more books.

ICE does not write these books out of the goodness of his heart and distribute them freely. He is paid well for being a writer. I spend my money on a book and I am entitled to discuss my feelings (negative or positive) about that book in any way I see fit, especially on a website dedicated to such things. It has absolutely nothing to do with us criticising ICE as a writer (though some do and they are entitled to do so) but really the main focus is ICE as a storyteller.

Ribald, on 21 July 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

Not at all, but he is the only one who has read it... so it seems a little strange to be passing judgement on a book before you have read it.

Unless of course a bunch of people have actually read it, in which case I apologise.

No one has read it. As Drek pointed out above why are you even on this thread? You are apparently outraged that Pat has mentioned some plot outlines but this isnt the first page (EDIT- were on page 5) of the thread and it wasnt as though his first post was full of spoilers. If youve potentially spoiled some of the surprise you really only have yourself to blame.

If people on this thread want to criticise ICE as a bad writer/storyteller they are well within their right to do so as this is a board for discussing all aspects of the Malaz universe. If any criticism of ICE makes you ashamed to be a part of this fandom then leave.

This post has been edited by tiam: 21 July 2014 - 06:13 PM

[Nortros]

Just two short things I want to point out:

1. The lack of convergence seems to be a subversion of the series itself as every book so far had a big convergence.
2. It is obviously deliberate that ICE is not revealing why Assail is so dangerous. Thus, it might just be the case that we are missing something.

I am not saying that it is great that ICE is messing with the reader's expectations in this regard, but there might be something hidden there.

[D'rek]

Nortros, on 21 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Just two short things I want to point out:

1. The lack of convergence seems to be a subversion of the series itself as every book so far had a big convergence.
2. It is obviously deliberate that ICE is not revealing why Assail is so dangerous. Thus, it might just be the case that we are missing something.

I am not saying that it is great that ICE is messing with the reader's expectations in this regard, but there might be something hidden there.

You're right, and we'll only know for sure by reading it, which I am sure I will do at some point

From the prologue, there does seem to be a couple possible things already that explain Assail being so dangerous

Spoiler

the stone 2/4-legged others that the Jaghut woman dives off the cliff from, or the T'lan Imass in the next section suddenly all killing each other (or were they really all just suddenly split in opinion about killing the Jhag or not and this somehow lead to all of them attacking each other...?)