[worry]

That wasn't a joke. Amazon is showing the paperback is coming out August 5 as well, so I might actually preorder it this week. Very enthused.

[Aptorian]

upworthywort, on 17 July 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

That wasn't a joke. Amazon is showing the paperback is coming out August 5 as well, so I might actually preorder it this week. Very enthused.

You enthusiasm is confusing and frustrating. I demand that you not order the book and stop being so positive. It is unnatural. Also Christmas is canceled.

[tiam]

pat5150, on 17 July 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Just finished the book. . .


No convergence, no mindfuck, no shit hitting the fan. Decidedly anticlimactic, but it does tie up all the ICE books. Offers very little in terms of revelations regarding Assail and its secrets. No information whatsoever about those human rulers standing up against and destroying thousands of T'lan Imass. Those expecting major revelations about the Jaghut and the Forkrul Assail will be quite disappointed.


Patrick

Angry Rant ahead

How the shuddering fuck does ICE not put this stuff in. What is he cunting waiting for he has a book titled Assail and fucks around for 600 pages filling it with vague characters that do things for vague intangible reasons that no one gives a shit about. And the worst part is he isnt a shit author. ROTCG is fucking great book with fantastic malazan scenes that flesh out a continent wed only seen hinted at. He gets entire continents to himself and he avoids anything fucking interesting. Blood and Bone MK2 this seems to be. The only fucking reason he would do this is because he knows the air of mystery is what people want and if he gives it to them they wont keep reading but I really cant have that little faith in him. He can do it but chooses not to.

He has built up a mythos and then deliberately and intentionally avoided anything to do with it. Why?

End rant.

I know a bit harsh considering I havnt read it but SW, OST, BaB all had a 'im near the end and fuck all is going on' moment. SW and OST had its moments but didnt really answer any questions and BaB was simply wandering filler. Pat has called it right on every ICE book so far. They have gone downhill.

I am genuinely angry at someone ive never met. I feel like someone who comments on youtube

This post has been edited by tiam: 17 July 2014 - 08:44 PM

[End of Disc One]

So no one else thinks it's funny that Pat said he was holding his review until August, and then straight up gives us a review? If this was a higher profile book, like with the Wheel of Time, people would be raging lol.

[D'rek]

tiam, on 17 July 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

I know a bit harsh considering I havnt read it but SW, OST, BaB all had a 'im near the end and fuck all is going on' moment. SW and OST had its moments but didnt really answer any questions and BaB was simply wandering filler. Pat has called it right on every ICE book so far. They have gone downhill.

I disagree about SW and OST not answering any questions. We knew a ton more about Korel and the Stormriders after SW compared to before, and a lot more about the Tyrant and Seguleh after OST than before. You may not like the execution of those revelations or you may be upset that there are still some unanswered questions about them, but I don't think you can deny that we did learn a lot about those things which had already been hinted at by SE and at the same time the answers given did not clash with SE's hints*.

I'm not saying they haven't gone downhill though (I think they have since RotCG and SW), but it is sounding like this new ICE book actively contradicts SE's own hints about the continent, whereas ICE's previous works did give us some answers and fit canonically with SE's works.


*Blood Follows notwithstanding

End of Disc One, on 17 July 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

So no one else thinks it's funny that Pat said he was holding his review until August, and then straight up gives us a review? If this was a higher profile book, like with the Wheel of Time, people would be raging lol.

Pat is like a corporate whistleblower

[Inane Babble]

End of Disc One, on 17 July 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

So no one else thinks it's funny that Pat said he was holding his review until August, and then straight up gives us a review? If this was a higher profile book, like with the Wheel of Time, people would be raging lol.

I dunno, I kinda enjoyed reading about the pain and suffering he went through reading it. Not sadistic at all, nope, no siree.

[pat5150]

I've been giving you guys reading reports as I go through every Malazan book ever since I was given an early read of Reaper's Gale. Transworld has never said anything about them, so it was only natural that I continue to do so regarding Assail.

Just wish I had more positive news to share. . .

Patrick

[Andorion]

Just a thought, but maybe it would be more emotionally safe(?) if we read the ICE books without thinking of getting answers to questions and , you know , just reading for the experience, for the sake of reading books? I loved NoK, RotCG was great in places SW was a very good book. For me the Malazan series ended with TCG. COme to think of it that's why I hated OST so smuch, because I read it after TCG and TCG is probably one of the best things to be written in fantasy. I actually like B&B, it was slow in parts, but the jungle was intersting and the ending was quite good. For any question, SE is still sriting the Kharkanas trilogy, there's the Toblakai trilogy to come. Assail may not be all it was imagined to be, but what ever is?

[Abalieno]

I probably SHOULDN'T but I'll quote this little bit from Erikson to me (relayed by Hetan) when I was discussing the end of the cycle, asking Erikson why wouldn't he pull all the stops for The Crippled God. And here's the relevant bit:

Quote

Ab wants the right ending, but I had to step lightly, ensuring that the real significance of what happened is not understood until Cam is done.

Apparently Cam IS done and yet the real significance is not understood?

That's why I don't understand. It's not an argument of the quality of the book, or the quality of Cam as a writer and his skills. This is merely about DELIBERATE grasping of opportunities. It's a deliberate choice Cam seems to have made about not really concluding the thing.

So, reading Pat's reports, the issue isn't about whether or not Assail is a good book, but that, opinions aside, it seems certainly NOT a conclusion.

It's a book in a series, but not a conclusion.

(also, Esslemont now works completely independently from Erikson. The book is published and Erikson himself has not yet read any of it, so Esslemont had the complete control and freedom over it.)

This post has been edited by Abalieno: 18 July 2014 - 03:40 AM

[blackzoid]

I am deeply perplexed by everyones praise for RoTCG.
Its the worst book in the entire Malazan cycle. By a good margin.

Personal tastes do vary I guess. Because I found it unspeakably bad. And I've read it 3-4 times. Becasue I'm a Malazan fan and we love rereads.
If Assail is like OST and BaB.....I am delighted.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 18 July 2014 - 11:37 AM

[End of Disc One]

pat5150, on 17 July 2014 - 11:41 PM, said:

I've been giving you guys reading reports as I go through every Malazan book ever since I was given an early read of Reaper's Gale. Transworld has never said anything about them, so it was only natural that I continue to do so regarding Assail.

Just wish I had more positive news to share. . .

Patrick

I suppose that's true; I did enjoy your reports of the Erikson books pre-release

[D'rek]

blackzoid, on 18 July 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

I am deeply perplexed by everyones praise for RoTCG.
Its the worst book in the entire Malazan cycle. By a good margin.

Personal tastes do vary I guess. Because I found it unspeakably bad. And I've read it 3-4 times. Becasue I'm a Malazan fan and we love rereads.
If Assail is like OST and BaB.....I am delighted.

Personal tastes do indeed vary. Personally, I think it has far more richly-developed characters (compare Storo's squad of multi-faceted personalities with interesting and diverse motivations versus Yusen's squad of two slapstick mages and a bunch of cardboard mercenary cut-outs), utilizes its whole-continent setting better (we get Wickans, Quon, Falari, Unta, Seti and the Heng, all seeming very different places and cultures, while OST barely uses any of Genebackis at all {despite pretending the Tyrant's return is ominous for the whole continent} and B&B makes the entire continent of Jacuruku have only 3 environments/cultures), the plots are all interesting and all line up at the end in meaningful ways that don't make you feel like they could have been skipped entirely (the random Otataral mines side-story turns out to be a crimson guard scheme and then it goes horribly wrong, Kyle's escape quest winds up bringing K'azz and Dessembrae to the convergence, etc... meanwhile what did that whole 2-book fetch quest for Tayschrenn accomplish other than him entering a mysterious door and changing his name? Why couldn't K'azz and Skinner just have sent Ardata a letter rejecting her instead of saying it in person and then standing around doing nothing during the Ardata-T'riss clash?) and lastly I find the pacing to be much, much more consistently engaging.

[Tarcanus]

So, based on pat's reading log, it seems like ICE is still stuck in his bad habits.

I posted a long 'review' of Blood and Bone in the "Disappointed" thread, and it sounds like the same complaints I made there will be evident here. ICE tries so hard to pull of the vague story-telling style that Erikson did, but fails. Where Erikson drops a few vague hints and then delivers in a big way at the end of the book, ICE does nothing but drop vague hints with indefinite descriptions like 'they' 'them' 'it' and then never gives enough detail at the end.

I'm especially upset that it seems Assail doesn't feel dangerous. That it doesn't really mention what destroyed those couple T'Lan legions. That it seems like most of the books is traveling, again. If it's anything like Blood and Bone, I'm willing to bet that at least two of the storyline or PoVs could have been skipped and nothing would have been lost.

Like others have said, I'll still be buying it because I love the Malazan world, but I increasingly feel like we should honestly entreat to Erikson that we get some sort of explanation or at least have ICE stop his current writing structure because all it does is get us close to book orgasm and then leave us with blue balls. And he does it in every single book barring Night of Knives and RotCG(which had much better structures and plots even if the writing was still sub-par).

Maybe it was meant to be this way all along to prove that stories are sometimes false and perhaps Assail was never dangerous. Perhaps this whole thing is a literary attempt to subvert some of the biggest tropes in the genre. We'll find out, I guess. I look forward to posting another of my long posts on my thoughts on Assail.

[blackzoid]

D, on 18 July 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Personal tastes do indeed vary. Personally, I think it has far more richly-developed characters (compare Storo's squad of multi-faceted personalities with interesting and diverse motivations versus Yusen's squad of two slapstick mages and a bunch of cardboard mercenary cut-outs), utilizes its whole-continent setting better (we get Wickans, Quon, Falari, Unta, Seti and the Heng, all seeming very different places and cultures, while OST barely uses any of Genebackis at all {despite pretending the Tyrant's return is ominous for the whole continent} and B&B makes the entire continent of Jacuruku have only 3 environments/cultures), the plots are all interesting and all line up at the end in meaningful ways that don't make you feel like they could have been skipped entirely (the random Otataral mines side-story turns out to be a crimson guard scheme and then it goes horribly wrong, Kyle's escape quest winds up bringing K'azz and Dessembrae to the convergence, etc... meanwhile what did that whole 2-book fetch quest for Tayschrenn accomplish other than him entering a mysterious door and changing his name? Why couldn't K'azz and Skinner just have sent Ardata a letter rejecting her instead of saying it in person and then standing around doing nothing during the Ardata-T'riss clash?) and lastly I find the pacing to be much, much more consistently engaging.

RotCG has several hates for me personally.
1: Malazan marines and how everything always goes so well for them. Always. I want Jumpy and his entire squad dead. Better then the Moranth at munitions? Well of course you are.
2: Speaking of Cussers. I despised their overuse. I called the resolution to RoTCG, at least 150 pages before the end. Guess what, its another Cusser. (Spoilers for Abelino, but I doubt he will ever get there. Maybe in 10 years) It sounds like Assail doesn't do that at least. I do actually prefer the WTF endings to an ending called out in advance reusing a plot element from earlier in the book. I get that soldiers have to overcome the God/Ascendent/odds somehow. But the SAME tactic? Again and again and again and again......
3: That pretender figurehead girl. Its eye-wrenchingly bad prose for her section. And for a lot of the middle section.
4: The Mines. Hated that storyline.
5: Kyle. In that book he is horrible. Just horrible.
6: Pacing. It was a solid mess of noise. The convergence was constant noise for hundreds of pages with little thematic analysis. I much preferred the abrupt endings of the other ICE books. RotCG was a...Transformers Bay film in prose format in its ending for me. Horrible horrible badly written stuff. Characters dropping in and out from Warrens all over the place. Does SE do that too, yes. Does he do it as badly...God no.

What I liked about RotCG.
The start of the Traveller story. Until he meets Kyle.
Tiger Soletaken. A good monster.
Seguleh ship in the fog. That section was the best of the entire book. I could see that vividly in my imagination.

As for OST, I loved the Seguleh culture. I didn't like all the Tyrant storyline but what I LOVED, was the crystalisation of the Ancient Genebackian culture. That the Moranth are the anti-Seguleh. The "Dwelling Plain" And I loved the Jungle setting of BaB. And the ending of Kallors storyline was great. Really one of the series highpoints for me. I have little interest in seeing a region fully explored, as long as I like what is explored. Throwing in bucket loads of different factions means nothing to me if they are all cardboard placeholders. Quality not Quantity. I love TTH and that only takes place at 2-3 settings. I also don't mind if storylines don't converge. No problem with that at all. As long as I enjoy the various storylines. And on the whole I enjoyed the secondary OST/BaB storylines a lot.

But, tastes vary. For Assail, I want a good enjoyable book. I KNOW it can't live up to expectations. I always knew that. Same as The Dark Tower was not great at the end, The Crippled God slightly dissappointed me and how I know A Dream of Spring will disappoint. No book can match our expectations. The best Malazan endings are DG,MoI, and TTH preciously because they don't have end-of-series expectations attached to them. They are more unexpected in their scales as a result.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 18 July 2014 - 02:58 PM

[Abyss]

It IS ok to read the book and make up our own minds, peoples.

I appreciate Pat's informed views, but when all's said and done they're just that.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 18 July 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

It IS ok to read the book and make up our own minds, peoples.

I appreciate Pat's informed views, but when all's said and done they're just that.

Yup, and that's why I want to know if I can slot this in before TCG. Maybe I'll read Assail for the first time as part of a big re-read where I'm not even letting it be last and my expectations hopefully won't be unreasonably high?

[Abyss]

D, on 18 July 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Abyss, on 18 July 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

It IS ok to read the book and make up our own minds, peoples.

I appreciate Pat's informed views, but when all's said and done they're just that.

Yup, and that's why I want to know if I can slot this in before TCG. Maybe I'll read Assail for the first time as part of a big re-read where I'm not even letting it be last and my expectations hopefully won't be unreasonably high?

Given some of the TCG related events in B&B, and assuming you mean to read B&B before Assail, i'd be reluctant to reco this reading order because either B&B or Assail are likely to spoil TCG at least a little.

[Tarcanus]

Abyss, on 18 July 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

It IS ok to read the book and make up our own minds, peoples.

I appreciate Pat's informed views, but when all's said and done they're just that.

But of course. I only posted what I did, for instance, because ICE's books have all had the same issues with little improvement. I can't wait to read the book and see for myself!

[tiam]

D, on 17 July 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

tiam, on 17 July 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

I know a bit harsh considering I havnt read it but SW, OST, BaB all had a 'im near the end and fuck all is going on' moment. SW and OST had its moments but didnt really answer any questions and BaB was simply wandering filler. Pat has called it right on every ICE book so far. They have gone downhill.

I disagree about SW and OST not answering any questions. We knew a ton more about Korel and the Stormriders after SW compared to before, and a lot more about the Tyrant and Seguleh after OST than before. You may not like the execution of those revelations or you may be upset that there are still some unanswered questions about them, but I don't think you can deny that we did learn a lot about those things which had already been hinted at by SE and at the same time the answers given did not clash with SE's hints*.

I'm not saying they haven't gone downhill though (I think they have since RotCG and SW), but it is sounding like this new ICE book actively contradicts SE's own hints about the continent, whereas ICE's previous works did give us some answers and fit canonically with SE's works.


*Blood Follows notwithstanding

*shrugs* yeah OST and SW are ok. SW the Lady mystery was a bit vague and OST could have elaborated on alot. BaB is still so much meh.

Why would he have contradicted SE on the continent. Why not have the big reveal and have a ROTCG esque convergence with it with all the characters hes introduced.

End of Disc One, on 17 July 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

So no one else thinks it's funny that Pat said he was holding his review until August, and then straight up gives us a review? If this was a higher profile book, like with the Wheel of Time, people would be raging lol.

Pat is like a corporate whistleblower

*shrugs* yeah OST and SW are ok. SW the Lady mystery was a bit vague and OST could have elaborated on alot. BaB is still so much meh.

Why would he have contradicted SE on the continent. Why not have the big reveal and have a ROTCG esque convergence with it with all the characters hes introduced.

Abalieno, on 18 July 2014 - 03:35 AM, said:

I probably SHOULDN'T but I'll quote this little bit from Erikson to me (relayed by Hetan) when I was discussing the end of the cycle, asking Erikson why wouldn't he pull all the stops for The Crippled God. And here's the relevant bit:

Quote

Ab wants the right ending, but I had to step lightly, ensuring that the real significance of what happened is not understood until Cam is done.

Apparently Cam IS done and yet the real significance is not understood?

That's why I don't understand. It's not an argument of the quality of the book, or the quality of Cam as a writer and his skills. This is merely about DELIBERATE grasping of opportunities. It's a deliberate choice Cam seems to have made about not really concluding the thing.

So, reading Pat's reports, the issue isn't about whether or not Assail is a good book, but that, opinions aside, it seems certainly NOT a conclusion.

It's a book in a series, but not a conclusion.

(also, Esslemont now works completely independently from Erikson. The book is published and Erikson himself has not yet read any of it, so Esslemont had the complete control and freedom over it.)

Thats the thing. Hes a good author that can pull of Malazan conclusions and this could have been his TCG/DOD style endgame. He has done the opposite of what has been set up, deliberately ignoring the mystery and choosing to do another OST Moon Spawn style treasure hunt, which I enjoyed the first time.

Not when weve had 8000 pages to sift through since MOI waiting for the most dangerous continent that destroyed legions of Imass, that Rake thought might require his attention and that worldly characters consider a graveyard for ascendents.

Abyss, on 18 July 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

It IS ok to read the book and make up our own minds, peoples.

I appreciate Pat's informed views, but when all's said and done they're just that.

I completely agree but if your like me and you think that Pat has accurately reviewed and addressed the declining plot driven story while seeing a steady increase in writing quality, youd be worried.

Some people will say 'same old ICE underwhelming writing and story' etc which isnt fair. I like ICEs style of writing but maybe not the plot of the last 2, BaB especially. But he can write a decent convergence.

Im annoyed not because hes a bad writer who has badly written a book I was looking forward to but because, as Abalieno has pointed out, its a deliberate avoiding of an opportunity. He had the Old Guard and I loved what he did with them, I know others didnt, and put interesting characters in a massive convergence.

This post has been edited by tiam: 18 July 2014 - 07:18 PM

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 18 July 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

D, on 18 July 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Abyss, on 18 July 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

It IS ok to read the book and make up our own minds, peoples.

I appreciate Pat's informed views, but when all's said and done they're just that.

Yup, and that's why I want to know if I can slot this in before TCG. Maybe I'll read Assail for the first time as part of a big re-read where I'm not even letting it be last and my expectations hopefully won't be unreasonably high?

Given some of the TCG related events in B&B, and assuming you mean to read B&B before Assail, i'd be reluctant to reco this reading order because either B&B or Assail are likely to spoil TCG at least a little.

I'm not so sure about that. Does B&B really spoil TCG at all? Knowing that one of the Jade Strangers has been diverted to Jacuruku doesn't really ruin waiting to find out what happens to the other ones. In fact, if you take Tayschrenn's mutterings about convergences happeneing far away as a bit of prophecy, you could even pretend OST and B&B take place a bit before the TCG finale, no?