[nacht]

blackzoid, on 18 July 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

D, on 18 July 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Personal tastes do indeed vary. Personally, I think it has far more richly-developed characters (compare Storo's squad of multi-faceted personalities with interesting and diverse motivations versus Yusen's squad of two slapstick mages and a bunch of cardboard mercenary cut-outs), utilizes its whole-continent setting better (we get Wickans, Quon, Falari, Unta, Seti and the Heng, all seeming very different places and cultures, while OST barely uses any of Genebackis at all {despite pretending the Tyrant's return is ominous for the whole continent} and B&B makes the entire continent of Jacuruku have only 3 environments/cultures), the plots are all interesting and all line up at the end in meaningful ways that don't make you feel like they could have been skipped entirely (the random Otataral mines side-story turns out to be a crimson guard scheme and then it goes horribly wrong, Kyle's escape quest winds up bringing K'azz and Dessembrae to the convergence, etc... meanwhile what did that whole 2-book fetch quest for Tayschrenn accomplish other than him entering a mysterious door and changing his name? Why couldn't K'azz and Skinner just have sent Ardata a letter rejecting her instead of saying it in person and then standing around doing nothing during the Ardata-T'riss clash?) and lastly I find the pacing to be much, much more consistently engaging.

RotCG has several hates for me personally.
1: Malazan marines and how everything always goes so well for them. Always. I want Jumpy and his entire squad dead. Better then the Moranth at munitions? Well of course you are.
2: Speaking of Cussers. I despised their overuse. I called the resolution to RoTCG, at least 150 pages before the end. Guess what, its another Cusser. (Spoilers for Abelino, but I doubt he will ever get there. Maybe in 10 years) It sounds like Assail doesn't do that at least. I do actually prefer the WTF endings to an ending called out in advance reusing a plot element from earlier in the book. I get that soldiers have to overcome the God/Ascendent/odds somehow. But the SAME tactic? Again and again and again and again......
3: That pretender figurehead girl. Its eye-wrenchingly bad prose for her section. And for a lot of the middle section.
4: The Mines. Hated that storyline.
5: Kyle. In that book he is horrible. Just horrible.
6: Pacing. It was a solid mess of noise. The convergence was constant noise for hundreds of pages with little thematic analysis. I much preferred the abrupt endings of the other ICE books. RotCG was a...Transformers Bay film in prose format in its ending for me. Horrible horrible badly written stuff. Characters dropping in and out from Warrens all over the place. Does SE do that too, yes. Does he do it as badly...God no.

What I liked about RotCG.
The start of the Traveller story. Until he meets Kyle.
Tiger Soletaken. A good monster.
Seguleh ship in the fog. That section was the best of the entire book. I could see that vividly in my imagination.

As for OST, I loved the Seguleh culture. I didn't like all the Tyrant storyline but what I LOVED, was the crystalisation of the Ancient Genebackian culture. That the Moranth are the anti-Seguleh. The "Dwelling Plain" And I loved the Jungle setting of BaB. And the ending of Kallors storyline was great. Really one of the series highpoints for me. I have little interest in seeing a region fully explored, as long as I like what is explored. Throwing in bucket loads of different factions means nothing to me if they are all cardboard placeholders. Quality not Quantity. I love TTH and that only takes place at 2-3 settings. I also don't mind if storylines don't converge. No problem with that at all. As long as I enjoy the various storylines. And on the whole I enjoyed the secondary OST/BaB storylines a lot.

But, tastes vary. For Assail, I want a good enjoyable book. I KNOW it can't live up to expectations. I always knew that. Same as The Dark Tower was not great at the end, The Crippled God slightly dissappointed me and how I know A Dream of Spring will disappoint. No book can match our expectations. The best Malazan endings are DG,MoI, and TTH preciously because they don't have end-of-series expectations attached to them. They are more unexpected in their scales as a result.

Dont' forget Toc the Elder, a real pointless storyline. It would have been to have left his fate as a myster.

[Egwene]

I enjoy spoiler threads and have long ago realised that just because there are voices speaking against something, it does not mean that I will share their opinion. So for my part, having enjoyed most of ICE (apart from the jungle - didn't like that one either), I am looking forward to 'Assail'.

I would say that Ribald does have a point about there being some very un-called for responses. I assume that Pat is the only one here who was lucky enough to get a copy - so how anyone can justify swearing over the content of a book they have not read... one or two responses did make me shake my head in wonder...

Whilst possibly not sharing his opinion once I have read the book, I nevertheless appreciate Pat (or any other critic) giving an honest opinion. I always fear that when people get advanced copies etc., they might be tempted to be too positive in order to stay on that VIP list.

Having said that, there is also a worry that, like one or two posters here, critics might jump onto a popular bandwagon. As there is definitely one driving around this forum which has 'we don't think much of ICE' written on it, I am concerned that rather than looking at his books for their own merit, the only yard stick applied is that of how they compare to Erikson, how they answer questions from the main series and how they follow similar writing paths. I think that that is a rather narrow way of looking at them.

I would love to see more discussion about the books themselves without the constant referral to the main series. I would also recommend that fans read them without expecting to have that cheek by jowl sensation.

[worry]

How do you differentiate between the bandwagon and the honest opinions? Does the bandwagon consist of those with dishonest opinions?

[tiam]

upworthywort, on 21 July 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

How do you differentiate between the bandwagon and the honest opinions? Does the bandwagon consist of those with dishonest opinions?

This

I agree that ICE suffers next to SE and thats all some can see. I for one like ICE as a writer but really despise his choice of plotlines. I believe there is a difference. ICEs books have declined irregardless of the main series.

The disappointment comes from Pat stating that, despite Assail being the final novel in ICE current run, it doesnt address the main attraction/mystery of Assail. This is a plot point that we have all been waiting for for a long time and we finally get a book called Assail that doesnt answer it. Pats fears as he read through will undoubtedly mimic my my own when I read it. He has accurately reviewed every ICE book and I can hardly disagree with him on them.

As for the bandwagon alot of forum regulars dont even bother reading ICE and someone upthread posted they wont bother with this one. I understand that we havnt read it yet however when alot of fans, including Pat, are losing faith in ICE the sentiments about his 'finale' are justified. We expected, given the title, a full unveiling of Assail whereas the picture Pat paints is an extended Moons Spawn treasure hunt plotline but on a different continent.

If Pat had given this lukewarm frustrated opinion of TCG then there would be alot more negativity.

FOr the record I hope beyond hope that my fears are wrong and that Pat has simply called this badly. But we know he hasnt.

This post has been edited by tiam: 21 July 2014 - 10:28 PM

[Abyss]

tiam, on 21 July 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

...

FOr the record I hope beyond hope that my fears are wrong and that Pat has simply called this badly. But we know he hasnt.

Maybe you know. I know no such thing.
You can hold on to whatever opinions you want, but don't even figuratively pretend to speak for anyone but yourself.

[pat5150]

Please keep in mind that a lot of people believe I'm a total dumbass. . . So my opinion might not be worth much. . .

Patrick

[nacht]

upworthywort, on 21 July 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

How do you differentiate between the bandwagon and the honest opinions? Does the bandwagon consist of those with dishonest opinions?

It consists of borrowed opinions.
Ah, the seductiveness of borrowing an opinion and forcefully amplifying it. The thrill the ego feels

[worry]

Good point, can I quote you on that?

[tiam]

Abyss, on 22 July 2014 - 04:52 AM, said:

tiam, on 21 July 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

...

FOr the record I hope beyond hope that my fears are wrong and that Pat has simply called this badly. But we know he hasnt.

Maybe you know. I know no such thing.
You can hold on to whatever opinions you want, but don't even figuratively pretend to speak for anyone but yourself.

Actually meant to say I. My apologies.

IMO Pats reviews of the last few ICE books have been spot on.

In any case this shouldnt be about the merits of Pats opinion. Lets everyone (especially me whos been a miserable sod about this book so far ) discuss the book.

The first chapter has gone up and the prologue is also available for a read on the amazon pages 'look inside' bit. So spoilers from the prolgue

Spoiler

If anything the first chapter sets up alot of plotlines but its the prologue itself that provides the most mystery. Clearly the Jagut wars on Assail were around 20 higher than on Genabackis which might explain the presence of two clans. The fear and trepidation of the Imass, aswell as their lack of unity, is a new side to them that we havnt seen before, or atleast seen fully realised, and it may be that an internal disagreement caused the destruction of the clans on Assail rather than a solely exterior threat.

I believe it may be a Jheck style population similar to the larger Jhelerkan we see in FOD that rival the Hounds of Shadow, or atleast some of the problems are caused by that. Could it simply be the humans of Assail are soletaken? The Imass seeing them, seeing the remnants of the HFE that they expunged from the inside out, and a disagreement immediately breaks out between the Imass on whether to kill all the humans or simply leave them be.

I still believe Kulps view in DG that the Imass are guilty, potentially of introducing the rituals of soletaken to the HFE thus causing its destruction and inevitable purging, is valid. So maybe thats what were seeing.

Another possible, maybe more likely, scenario is that Assail is populated by Jaghut human hybrids. If not hybrids then they have some form of Jaghut blood/culture in them. This might explain why the Imass wish to kill them and some do not, some see only the Jaghut blood whereas others see the human blood. This has a much greater precedent as in the, now available, DP we see the Primogenatrix from ROTCG is in Assail and he has some Jaghut blood in him. So could Assail be a Jaghut refuge with Jaghut aristocracy? What effect does the Jaghut blood have on the people of Assail? Does it help them become Soletaken allowing a smoother transition?

Or do the humans on Assail simply outnumber the Imass that much and have killed the Imass through sheer numbers? Or are the creatures that are stirred simply Nachts in uncountable numbers attacking the Imass?

Despite my misgivings I am looking forward to reading this.

This post has been edited by tiam: 22 July 2014 - 12:17 PM

[Geoffray]

tiam, on 21 July 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

The disappointment comes from Pat stating that, despite Assail being the final novel in ICE current run, it doesnt address the main attraction/mystery of Assail. This is a plot point that we have all been waiting for for a long time and we finally get a book called Assail that doesnt answer it. Pats fears as he read through will undoubtedly mimic my my own when I read it. He has accurately reviewed every ICE book and I can hardly disagree with him on them.

Maybe, maybe, this's the crux of the problem. I mean, we all expected something so grand so magnificent, that perhaps ours expectation were completely out of-based. Therefore, it's possible that the deception we see here, is on par with ICE (he's got some problems has a writer, there is no denying ^^) and on par with us. Just my 2 cents .

[Tarcanus]

Geoffray, on 22 July 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

tiam, on 21 July 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

The disappointment comes from Pat stating that, despite Assail being the final novel in ICE current run, it doesnt address the main attraction/mystery of Assail. This is a plot point that we have all been waiting for for a long time and we finally get a book called Assail that doesnt answer it. Pats fears as he read through will undoubtedly mimic my my own when I read it. He has accurately reviewed every ICE book and I can hardly disagree with him on them.

Maybe, maybe, this's the crux of the problem. I mean, we all expected something so grand so magnificent, that perhaps ours expectation were completely out of-based. Therefore, it's possible that the deception we see here, is on par with ICE (he's got some problems has a writer, there is no denying ^^) and on par with us. Just my 2 cents .

It's still mean.

[Illuyankas]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I'll take 'what is a tone argument' for 400, Alex

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Illuyankas, on 22 July 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I'll take 'what is a tone argument' for 400, Alex

Concern trolls unite!!

[tiam]

Geoffray, on 22 July 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

tiam, on 21 July 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

The disappointment comes from Pat stating that, despite Assail being the final novel in ICE current run, it doesnt address the main attraction/mystery of Assail. This is a plot point that we have all been waiting for for a long time and we finally get a book called Assail that doesnt answer it. Pats fears as he read through will undoubtedly mimic my my own when I read it. He has accurately reviewed every ICE book and I can hardly disagree with him on them.

Maybe, maybe, this's the crux of the problem. I mean, we all expected something so grand so magnificent, that perhaps ours expectation were completely out of-based. Therefore, it's possible that the deception we see here, is on par with ICE (he's got some problems has a writer, there is no denying ^^) and on par with us. Just my 2 cents .

I see what you mean and this is what some felt was wrong with TCG. Its never going to be as good as you think it is kind of mentality.

Thats not what im getting at here and, in my post above thats just speculation, its what im trying to steer the thread away from. I like ICE as a writer. No real problem with anything other than the fairly common proof reading errors that turn up in his work though even these have improved since the ROTCG hardback days. The disappointment comes from this being ICEs finale to his own run. It is a complete mystery in regards to almost everything and what info we do know have hinted is that this place is lethal even to huge powerhouses like the Imass or even Rake. ICE can come up with what he wants here this is his TCG and alot of the build up in the last few books (particularly BaB) has lead upto. Yet Pat on his mini reviews throughout has been wholeheartedly disappointed.

The main one for me was when Pat got over halfway and said he was starting to lose faith in ICE. Thats an experience ive had with alot of ICEs books since SW (which is a good book) that has you coming towards the end with alot more questions. We dont really get any resolution and BaB (with the Avowed for example) was very much a set up book for this. People are now saying that the people who are worried about the book are 'bandwagon jumpers' which I dont understand.

Anyway were discussing the discussion now.

Someone have a look what I posted upthread and lets be positive and get some crazy theories rolling

This post has been edited by tiam: 22 July 2014 - 05:32 PM

[Egwene]

Yes... who is the unforeseen romance for example????

Silverfox and Kallor? ...ok... maybe not...

Let's start a 'Malazan Blind Dates' thread... ...

Any suggestions?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

D'rek had a good one on the other Assail thread that is still cracking me up. I always wondered what it would be like to make love to a D'ivers. A practical one at least. The D'ivers locusts would probably not be all that fun, but and now I'm suddenly confronted with the serious lack of female D'ivers. What gives SE?!

EDIT: I just seriously devalued the shit out of this thread.

So far, I'm about 300 out of 509 e-book pages into Assail and its a really good story so far. I want to be more detailed, but I hesitate. However two of our disparate parties just met up and it was a great scene. ICE can do seafaring REALLY REALLY well. Which begs the question; so far this is the most boat-heavy of all ICE's books, yet no boat on the cover?!?! What gives ICE?!

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 23 July 2014 - 04:27 PM

[tiam]

I for one miss our new boat overlords...

The Marese blockade was good. The forest ferry in BaB not so much

[buddhacat]

pat5150, on 22 July 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

Please keep in mind that a lot of people believe I'm a total dumbass. . . So my opinion might not be worth much. . .

Patrick

That's one opinion I can agree with.

Seriously people, the book is really quite good, and I speak as one who almost forswore ICE after the debacle that was the RCG, and again after the squishy ending (except for Kallor's plotline) that was B&B.

[pat5150]

I waited till the book was out on both sides of the Atlantic, for I didn't want an early negative review to hurt the book.

So you can read it here.

Label me disappointed. . .

Patrick

[Abyss]

pat5150, on 18 August 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

I waited till the book was out on both sides of the Atlantic, for I didn't want an early negative review to hurt the book.

So you can read it here...

*reads*
... ok, fair to say you didn't love it...
Your opinion and you're entitled to it.
I can't help but wonder if your expectations clouded the reading.... yes, we did not get ...


SPOILERS


SPOILERS


ASSAIL SPOILERS


SERIOUS TOTAL COMPLETE ASSAIL SPOILERS FROM HERE ON


DO NOT READ THESE


SPOILERS


THEY WILL SPOIL YOU


LIKE SLICED HAM IN THE DIRECT SUN FOR HOURS SPOILED


AND THEN IT SMELLS BAD TOO


SPOILERS




...human tyrants sending thousands of suicidal fanatics at clans of Imass, and it was most definitely not the final word on the Malazan Empire, far from it, but as a work of fantasy about an unfamiliar place in a familiar world, separate from the misdirection and rumor laid out in the prior books, i wonder if it wouldn't have rated higher for you.


Cotillion's comments do work in the context of the Imass clans fighting each other to wipe out humans who don't care about the historic war between Jaghut and Imass, btw.