[Illuyankas]

Oh yeah, rather than that British dude in stasis in Demonreach being Merlin, it's totally King Arthur. Especially since Harry's going to store Amoracchius/Excalibur there.

[Tattersail_]

Loved it. I haven't read anything in ages but burned through this one pretty quickly. I hate waiting so long for them to come out.

I should buy more books by Butcher.

Awesome.

[Starling]

Briar King, on 01 June 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 01 June 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Loved it. I haven't read anything in ages but burned through this one pretty quickly. I hate waiting so long for them to come out.

I should buy more books by Butcher.

Awesome.

Codex Alera !

Fucking A.

Really? I read the first Codex Alera and I found it a bit... generic. I wasn't that impressed by it.

[Aptorian]

Starling, on 01 June 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

Briar King, on 01 June 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 01 June 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Loved it. I haven't read anything in ages but burned through this one pretty quickly. I hate waiting so long for them to come out.

I should buy more books by Butcher.

Awesome.

Codex Alera !

Fucking A.

Really? I read the first Codex Alera and I found it a bit... generic. I wasn't that impressed by it.

Same here, BUT like the Dresden Files, Butcher is really good at developing characters and storylines.

Think of the Codex Alera as a really bloody Young Adult series. It only gets better and better as each book passes (allthough I am of the opinion that the "Big Bad" that the story focuses on was stupid).

[champ]

What Apt said plus Codex just gets better with each book!

Question...

Molly been able to use a mobile phone and Harry stating she is becoming an inhuman caster, guessing this is down to the Winter Lady mantle... Any ideas if the Winter Knight mantle effects Harry in the same way...

I didn't think it did but just started a reread and Harry/Mab convo right at the start:

Quote

'I'm only human.'
Mab's gaze remained on me, cold and heavy as a blanket of snow. 'For now.'

Guess it could be a few things, Mab threatening to dispose of him, something down the line with the whole starborn but just had me wondering!

[Aptorian]

Finished the book yesterday.

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what people are saying about the book. It has some issues. The "heist" story formula does a number on some of the traditional Dresden twists, but ultimately I think it worked really well. I mean, the actual premise of the whole thing, when you go to the end is fucking stupid, but it was great read.

I also agree that it felt more like a transitional book than a major entry. It developed our knowledge of Denarians and gave us a bunch of character development but ultimately it didn't do much beyond that.

I remain frustrated at how little the "Mantle" actually does for Dresden. What is the fucking point of having a right hand man who enforces the will of the Queen of Winter if he still isn't able to go toe to toe with the big guys? Why doesn't Dresden have an Ice sword that cuts through Forest Assholes? Why isn't his magical power amplified tenfold by Winter like when he taps into hell or soulfire? Why doesn't he have more access to Winters resources so that he could for example summon crack teams of Fairy commandos to protect the Carpenters household?

It just bother me so much, how little Dresden is actually getting out of this. I have started to get to grips with it though in this book.

I loved all the character stuff in this book, especially Harry meeting his daughter and him finally shacking up with Murphy. I will say though, fuck all the people who say that Dresden should stop worrying and just start a relationship with Murphy and be the dad he wants to be. It's a really cute, romantic notion. But it comes from people who aren't actually a walking shit storm magnet. I think that Dresden is out of his mind starting a relationship and becoming a dad. The Denarians are out there and god knows what else. They WILL come for him through the people he loves.

In fact what is stopping Nic from just sending a Van with Assault teams the next day, and the next day after that, etc.? I thought the ending of the book was sort of disturbing because it showed just how vulnerable the Carpenters really are. That goes for Maggie as well. The further away from them that Dresden stays the better.

It sort of bothered me that we never got a proper explanation of what Dresden stole and what is going to happen with it. Is he turning over 4 Christian relics to Mab? To the church? Who gets them and what exactly was their purpose. I think it was sloppy to end the book with out getting some closure on that. Similarly, it bothered me how accepting they all were about Nic stealing the motherfucking Holy Grail. That shits important!

Am I the only one who read that passage talking about the cup and one soul in particular. I can't remember how the sentence was phrased but I remember thinking that the Cup was going to give Nic access to/ control over Jesus Christs soul. Maybe he can taint the blood line or destroy it, like the Red Court tried to at Chichen Itza.

Anyway in terms of action I really liked the story. Lots of stuff blowing up and Dresden being a smart ass. The interesting thing about the Winter Mantle is that Í think this is probably the biggest amount of punishment we've seen Dresden recieve. I wonder how the Mantle was able to heal his back, but it doesn't heal bullet wounds or broken arms?

This post has been edited by Apt Hoc: 01 June 2014 - 10:24 PM

[Illuyankas]

Pretty sure that Butters is wrong about the Winter Mantle AND it's being downplayed so Harry isn't as weakened when he loses it. Not to mention most of the power is given when you accept it fully, which Harry is too stubborn to do.

I would rather read a story about Harry Dresden, Magic Dad and supporting cast then Harry Dresden, Bitter Loner on his own; besides, Michael's example of the Red Court as what happens when you go after people Harry cares for is still valid.

He's totally going to store them at Demonreach, as per the line where Michael accepts that the Church would fuck it up like they fuck up the Denarian coin storage. Go reread the final chat between him and Harry.

[amphibian]

Plus why would Mab clue Harry into the true power of what he's carrying around with him when she 1) can't fully trust him and 2) loves playing games to slowly bring him along in a way that accomplishes everything she wants.

Mab doing the slow play makes sense if she continually bumps up Dresden's power levels only slightly beyond that of what his enemies expect of him. She's loading the deck just enough that most won't catch on - especially if she spreads out the targets among different groups. If he zooms straight up to God-Killer, then they're going to be prepared for God-Killer every time. She loses ambiguity and subtlety that way. The slow play is better for her and gives her more opportunity to fully convert Dresden or establish a more reliable rapport than the shaky one she has.

It looks like Molly bought into Mab's schemes much faster than Harry did. Might be a product of the dreams and isolation as well. Molly never had Harry's strength of will to continue on even if utterly alone.

[Aptorian]

I just don't buy this notion that the Knight is intentionally being kept underpowered. It makes no sense. Mab is all about presentation. She needs to look strong. Having a weak knight running around doing errands makes her look weak by association. How useful is the knight really if any number of creatures could rip him limb from limb? Just look at what that Forest troll did to Dresden. There are tons of creatures like this guy out there that is levels of power above Dresden. Arguing that Dresden is intended to rely on his cleverness doesn't really make sense in this scenario I feel.

I don't think Molly is under Mabs control. From what we have seen of the Mother, Queen and Lady they seem to be independent beings. The Lady answers to the Queen but she is not under her thrall. In that sense, it seems more like Molly has embraced her power and the responsibility expected of her. Like she says to Dresden, she has a lot of jobs and the winter subjects are watching her.

[Obdigore]

Apt Hoc, on 02 June 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

I just don't buy this notion that the Knight is intentionally being kept underpowered. It makes no sense. Mab is all about presentation. She needs to look strong. Having a weak knight running around doing errands makes her look weak by association. How useful is the knight really if any number of creatures could rip him limb from limb? Just look at what that Forest troll did to Dresden. There are tons of creatures like this guy out there that is levels of power above Dresden. Arguing that Dresden is intended to rely on his cleverness doesn't really make sense in this scenario I feel.

The troll was also a Denarian that is naturally stronger than a human. Implying it shouldn't have good magic, when Harry met another one that had the greatest water magic he had ever seen, while not having a 10000 year old fallen angel whispering secrets to him, is preposterous.

Quote

I don't think Molly is under Mabs control. From what we have seen of the Mother, Queen and Lady they seem to be independent beings. The Lady answers to the Queen but she is not under her thrall. In that sense, it seems more like Molly has embraced her power and the responsibility expected of her. Like she says to Dresden, she has a lot of jobs and the winter subjects are watching her.

Influence isn't control, but that doesn't mean you can't get done what you want to get done. That said I agree with you, Molly is embracing being the Winter Princess more than Harry is Embracing being the Winter Knight.

I agree that Butters is probably wrong about the Knight Mantle. It removes the 'limits' of the human body, powered up Harrys frost/ice magic, and increased his regeneration by a helluvalot.

Remember that Winter exists to combat the outsiders, and Summer exists to protect the rest of the universe from winter. Acting like the Winter Knight should be super-duper powerful against Summer is silly. Winter and Summer Knights must, by their nature, grant the same gifts, only the compulsions from the mantles are different. Winters is to conquer, to take, to be the predator. I would suggest that Summers is to bide, to withstand, and to protect.

Ironically I think the big question is, what does the Winter Knight gain in the realm of dealing with outsiders.

This post has been edited by Possibly Brent Weeks: 02 June 2014 - 09:48 AM

[Tiste Simeon]

I would have thought if Harry "gave in" as it were to the Mantle, he would power up massively. Pesky things like having a conscience and caring get in the way of this happening though.

[Imperial Historian]

I don't know the knights power always seemed more symbolic than anything else, and largely physical.

We never saw Lloyd slate throwing around power he was just fast, and able to resist damage which should put him down.

Aurora says something about the knights power being significant in the mortal world, but I don't think the knights power level matches up with the high powered sidhe, he's normally only used in mortal matters, not against powerhouses.

I'm also not sure the winter knight mantle healed his broken back, I think mab did that as part of the bargain for harry joining up.

[Cause]

Harry lost the ability to walk when he said 'fuck winter' and the winter mantle deserted him in cold days.

Also Harry was able to one shot High Sidhe noblemen in cold days while the winter knight, a feat he thinks would have been impossible without it. He also cats a lot of cold magic know that he never did before. The winter mantle is perhaps being portrayed slightly inconsistently but I think there must be some juice too it besides just letting him ignore fatigue or pain.

[Abyss]

champ, on 01 June 2014 - 10:16 PM, said:

...
Molly been able to use a mobile phone and Harry stating she is becoming an inhuman caster, guessing this is down to the Winter Lady mantle... Any ideas if the Winter Knight mantle effects Harry in the same way...

I didn't think it did but just started a reread and Harry/Mab convo right at the start:

Quote

'I'm only human.'
Mab's gaze remained on me, cold and heavy as a blanket of snow. 'For now.'

Guess it could be a few things, Mab threatening to dispose of him, something down the line with the whole starborn but just had me wondering!

Apt Hoc, on 01 June 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

...
I remain frustrated at how little the "Mantle" actually does for Dresden. What is the fucking point of having a right hand man who enforces the will of the Queen of Winter if he still isn't able to go toe to toe with the big guys? Why doesn't Dresden have an Ice sword that cuts through Forest Assholes? Why isn't his magical power amplified tenfold by Winter like when he taps into hell or soulfire? Why doesn't he have more access to Winters resources so that he could for example summon crack teams of Fairy commandos to protect the Carpenters household?

It just bother me so much, how little Dresden is actually getting out of this. I have started to get to grips with it though in this book.

...The interesting thing about the Winter Mantle is that Í think this is probably the biggest amount of punishment we've seen Dresden recieve. I wonder how the Mantle was able to heal his back, but it doesn't heal bullet wounds or broken arms?

amphibian, on 02 June 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

Plus why would Mab clue Harry into the true power of what he's carrying around with him when she 1) can't fully trust him and 2) loves playing games to slowly bring him along in a way that accomplishes everything she wants.

Mab doing the slow play makes sense if she continually bumps up Dresden's power levels only slightly beyond that of what his enemies expect of him. She's loading the deck just enough that most won't catch on - especially if she spreads out the targets among different groups. If he zooms straight up to God-Killer, then they're going to be prepared for God-Killer every time. She loses ambiguity and subtlety that way. The slow play is better for her and gives her more opportunity to fully convert Dresden or establish a more reliable rapport than the shaky one she has.
...

Apt Hoc, on 02 June 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

I just don't buy this notion that the Knight is intentionally being kept underpowered. It makes no sense. Mab is all about presentation. She needs to look strong. Having a weak knight running around doing errands makes her look weak by association. How useful is the knight really if any number of creatures could rip him limb from limb? Just look at what that Forest troll did to Dresden. There are tons of creatures like this guy out there that is levels of power above Dresden. Arguing that Dresden is intended to rely on his cleverness doesn't really make sense in this scenario I feel.

I don't think Molly is under Mabs control. From what we have seen of the Mother, Queen and Lady they seem to be independent beings. The Lady answers to the Queen but she is not under her thrall. In that sense, it seems more like Molly has embraced her power and the responsibility expected of her. Like she says to Dresden, she has a lot of jobs and the winter subjects are watching her.

Imperial Historian, on 02 June 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

I don't know the knights power always seemed more symbolic than anything else, and largely physical.

We never saw Lloyd slate throwing around power he was just fast, and able to resist damage which should put him down.

Aurora says something about the knights power being significant in the mortal world, but I don't think the knights power level matches up with the high powered sidhe, he's normally only used in mortal matters, not against powerhouses.

I'm also not sure the winter knight mantle healed his broken back, I think mab did that as part of the bargain for harry joining up.

Mab healed Harry, not the Mantle.
Slate wasn't a wizard. Harry's ice spell upgrades are the link with Winter affecting his magic, not 'new' powers. Slate got the physical power-up and a nifty sword Mab probably gave him, but that's all.

Something key happened in the book when Harry had the thorned manacles on but figured he had the physical power anyways... the Mantle and the way Mab is manipulating Harry are making Harry stronger. Not the Mantle but the man. Sure, he's Winter Knight with all that entails, but rather than relying on it, he's making HIMSELF more of a badass. And i think that's exactly what Mab intends.

Btw, people keep overlooking how the Mantle lets Harry walk on ice, no problems. That was how he beat Ursiel/Radgorilla at the Gate of Ice.

[Abyss]

So nice to finally join the party...

polishgenius, on 27 May 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

... And Michael getting a last hurrah was nice to see.

I wouldn't bet we've seen the last of Michael by a long shot.

Quote

The normal-talking guy trapped in Demonsreach at the beginning - that's Merlin, isn't it. I can't wait till that prison gets explored more, to be honest.

Binder of Demons, on 27 May 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

I assumed that the normal talking guy in Demonreach is the original Merlin as well.

I love this theory. And it's totally consistent that the original Merlin would be a pretentious dick.

Quote

My main question regarding Nico at the moment is, does he know about Nemesis? It was the first thought that came to mind, when Dresden asks Deirdre about why she's helping Nico, and she says "We're trying to save the world". Are the Denarians as susceptible to corruption from Nemesis as anyone else?

Iirc it was established back in SMALL FAVOR that at least one Denarian, Thorned Nathaniel iirc, was Black Council, which would logically follow to them being vulnerable, their hosts if not the Fallen themselves.

Quote

And my other big question is about Mr. Sunshine. I can't help but get the feeling that there will be some follow on from his passing his angelic grace on to Michael, even temporarily. Will it lead to his fall. I'm saying yes. And subsequent redemption.

I'm going a slightly different direction with that... Nick hatches a plot that threatens Uriel, Michael intercedes, all three of them die and the death of an Archangel and Fallen trigger the Apocaliptology.

polishgenius, on 27 May 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

Starling, on 27 May 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

The Holy Grail held the blood of Christ, yes? So it would suggest that the knife had something to do with drawing that blood, just as the rest of the relics were part of the death and resurrection of Christ.

The one notable drawing of Christ's blood is when His side is pierced on the cross, and in the traditions, that's the Spear of Destiny/Holy Lance, not a knife.
It's difficult to say if that's what the Holy Grail was supposed to have caught, though, since (unlike every other major Crucifixion relic), there's absolutely no basis whatsoever for the Grail in scripture (it sometimes gets conflated with the Holy Chalice from the last supper, but they aren't the same thing).

As a Catholic I have no idea what it was meant to be, but a quick read-around suggests it might be something to do with the bread at the last supper - although there's no indication that a knife was used there, either, in the scriptures, and there's no major object associated with such. I'll be interested to see what people come up with/if Butcher ever confirms what it is. ...

I figured it was from the Last Supper... didn't seem big enough to be the spearhead since Harry hid it in his sleeve.
There is reference to a knife being used to symbolize the spear.... perhaps if the Nails can become swords, the Spear became the knife...

Possibly Brent Weeks, on 28 May 2014 - 04:21 AM, said:

(doublepost)

No one is really asking what Hades got out of it... seems like his collection of 'dangerous weapons' now has a pair of Nickelheads in it...

I wonder if his storage is more secure than that of the church.

Not so sure Lasciel/Asher died, but Ursiel/RadGorillwa certainly seemed that way.

If there is a need for the Denarii at the final battle, Hades can always let him loose.

Pig Iron, on 28 May 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

Short and sweet it felt like. Can I have another one please? Butter as a Tinker-class (read Worm) superhero with a holy light saber and an Intellectus familiar is crazy even by Butcher's usual standards. Scenes with Maggie made my eyes go blurry.

Yes, yes and yes.

obihal, on 28 May 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

foreshadowing abou Butters knighthood

"Butters," rumbled Skaldi Hair Ball. If he really had broken fingers, it didn't look like they were bothering him much. "When are you going to get in this ring and train like a man?"
"About five minutes after I get a functional lightsaber, " Butters replied easily, much to Hair Ball's amusement.

Also in Dead Beat when Harry prayed for help, hoping a Knight would show up, as he has said at least once since, Mouse and Butters showed up and did save him

Your quote fu is both strong and righteous. Have star.

Binder of Demons, on 28 May 2014 - 10:22 PM, said:

I think "PARKOUR........ BITCH" is going to be my new catchphrase.


I was doing a quick reread of some scenes, and the one of Nico and Deirdre talking at the blood gate seemingly confirms my suspicion that the Denarians will eventually have to come in against the Outsiders.

The first bit was when Dresden taunts Deirdre and asks what she hopes to achieve, and she goes quiet and replies, "We, are fighting to save the world".

And then when, Nico is about to kill her, he says "You will be safe from the Enemy here". The capitialisation of the word Enemy jumped out at me, as being oddly specific.

So do these both mean Nicodemus is in his own way trying to counter Nemesis? Could the Denarians have been further corrupted by Nemesis?

Or does the "Enemy" just refer to God etc?

see above the SMALL FAVOR and Thorny Nate.

I imagine that whatever Nemisis and the Outsiders (70s prog rock band name!) are working towards, it isn't the Apocalypse that Nick and co want to happen, so they're basically at odds over whose apocalyse takes priority.

..which is pretty funny when you think about it....

[Abyss]

Cause, on 29 May 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

...Also I need to know more about Mouse. Anduriel panicked when he faced Mouse! What is he, why does he love harry so much and why does he love being a dog?

He's a guardian demon. It's in his nature despite how much else he is.

Quote

Why does Harry Not DemonReach the coins?

he doesn't have any at the moment.

Quote

How Does the Original Lasciel know about what Lash did?

Magic!


Harry got Lash from the brief contact with the coin, which he retained for a while. it makes sense that evreything Lash experienced, Lasciel at least knew of.

Quote

I don't like the idea of Harry not asking for Bob back and I wonder if the new spirit baby is supposed to become a kind of Bob Replacement.

When Harry took on the mantle post death he decided in Winter Knight to leave Bob with Butters because of how Bob is influenced by his owner.... Harry retaining Bob was too dangerous because of Winter's influence.

Imperial Historian, on 30 May 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

Read it, enjoyed it a lot. Thought Harry's advancement over a year was artificially slowed, it didn't really fit that he spent the whole year on the island and didn't build up more of a magical arsenal.

The shield bracelet and impact rings thing kept coming up, but i suppose it was a side effect of the isolation Mab caused.

Quote

Re nicks knife, that's the blade of the spear of Longinus no? Leaf shaped blade with wooden handle seems to fit that...

That's my guess, per above.

Starling, on 30 May 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

amphibian, on 30 May 2014 - 03:56 AM, said:

How did that fake Dresden/Murph scene happen? I thought Lasciel had no reach on him anymore.

I think that was Harry's subconscious trying to warn him that Lasciel was out and about.

Yes it was.

champ, on 30 May 2014 - 09:35 AM, said:

When Nik and Deirdre were talking about the Enemy I figured it to be Nemesis rather than God but I guess it could go either way, it made more sense to me - in context with the series - when they mentined saving the world and seeing the truth where others didn't. Again they could be talking about God but saving the world from God just didn't seem to fit for me!

pathos, on 30 May 2014 - 07:24 AM, said:

I also wonder on the motivation of Grey for the whole thing. I mean sure Harry hires him first but why isn't cost decided beforehand (I suppose its got to do with talking and the shadow being able to hear and see stuff?) but then why only charge Harry a dollar? How well did he know Harry's mother.... could that have something to do with why he helped Harry? QUESTIONS! Its going to be an itchy year or two until my next fix

That's what I figured, knowing Harrys mother but as to the details, really hope we find that out!
...

The implications of a bigger link between Harry and Grey were pretty interesting. I don't think they'll go full-on 'Harry, i am your father', but odds are good he shagged his mother.

Briar King, on 01 June 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

I really missed Thomas in this one. I don't think he's not been in a book since he was introduced.

No he's a had a few vacations, notably GHOST STORY among others. I agree he's a great character but i like that Butcher staggers his cast a bit.

Illuyankas, on 01 June 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

Oh yeah, rather than that British dude in stasis in Demonreach being Merlin, it's totally King Arthur. Especially since Harry's going to store Amoracchius/Excalibur there.

Interesting theory.

[Binder of Demons]

A couple of more things that interest me.

When Grey wants his payment, and it turns out to be only a dollar, it kinda reminded me of when Harry, Thomas and Molly met with Vadderung in Mac's bar, and he insisted on having some form of payment to make the exchange legit. Even if it was only a few cents. I found it curious that Vadderung is also the guy who probably arranged his involvement, on Mab->Harry's behalf.

The other funny thing about Grey is that when asked about why he does what he does, he says something seemingly offhand about having to pay the rent. He mentions this twice, and there is an odd stress on the RENT part of it both times. Which had me thinking maybe he is basically trying to pay off a debt (to Vadderung perhaps?)? Though it does in some ways remind me of something like Harry, or Elaine running off to bargain with the Sidhe for protection/shelter, and thus being indebted in some way.

Completely off base?


It's great having new stuff to rampantly speculate from.

[amphibian]

Thorned Namshiel, not Nathaniel.

[Abyss]

Binder of Demons, on 02 June 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

A couple of more things that interest me.

When Grey wants his payment, and it turns out to be only a dollar, it kinda reminded me of when Harry, Thomas and Molly met with Vadderung in Mac's bar, and he insisted on having some form of payment to make the exchange legit. Even if it was only a few cents. I found it curious that Vadderung is also the guy who probably arranged his involvement, on Mab->Harry's behalf.

The other funny thing about Grey is that when asked about why he does what he does, he says something seemingly offhand about having to pay the rent. He mentions this twice, and there is an odd stress on the RENT part of it both times. Which had me thinking maybe he is basically trying to pay off a debt (to Vadderung perhaps?)? Though it does in some ways remind me of something like Harry, or Elaine running off to bargain with the Sidhe for protection/shelter, and thus being indebted in some way.

Completely off base?


It's great having new stuff to rampantly speculate from.

The capital R in Rent he kept using definitely had meaning... some sort of debt seems likely. I'm womndering if it has anything to do with him being fairly stable and not as outright evil as the other Naagslushies we've seen.

I like your link back to the Mac's meeting.

amphibian, on 02 June 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

Thorned Namshiel, not Nathaniel.

Yeah, that guy. Nick was pissed at him at the end of FAVOR and iirc he was linked to the mystery raid on Arctis Tor that preceded the rescue raid on Arctis Tor.

[Obdigore]

So I just had a crazy theory. Pompous old man in Demonreach; Merlin. Yea Yea, its been suggested before, stay with me here. Each layer of spells on each rock = far beyond Harry's ability, or Bob's ability to even see what is going on.

What if Merlin essentially turned himself into a Battery for the prison. His power is the power generator holding it all together? So he stays alive (but trapped inside), his power keeps going, and if Demonreach is ever damaged/destroyed, Merlin is hanging out ready to put the smackdown and (possibly) go back in time to rebuild it 28 times.

Also; keeps himself around as an Ace in the Hole for any kind of final confrontation with the outsiders. I've got money that Harry is going to release some Naagloshi and some other beings who swear on their power to help against the outsiders in return for their freedom.