[Korabas]

Okral Lom, on 16 April 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Out of curiosity Korabas, what's your opinion on this post of Denul's, specifically the stuff about Warlord symps?

Denul, on 16 April 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

Ok so this is the other point I wanted to bring up about mechanics and scum hunting in this game.

PS did retcon the "majority" from the scum VCs as potentially just "parity". So it could be that Kenshiro really is alone, or it could be that he has followers, we don't know. Either way, we only need to eliminate Kenshiro to win.

I do think and have expressed that I think we are too gung-ho to jump on signalling accusations etc, but that is not to say that looking for killers/lead scum via links to/from their followers/partners is not useful and worth doing. Normally!

The problem is, this game has the three gang leaders each of whom may have followers that they know or that know them. The sign-up thread said the game "Contains some variations of typical roles" so there could be any kind of role out there.

Looking for Kenshiro based on player interactions like a basic symp-master interaction is not going to work. If Kenshiro has any allies, there could be four similar partnerships out there with only one being scum. If Kenshiro is on his own after all, there could be three out there and none are scum.

Just something for everyone else to keep in mind. We need to focus on individual behaviours more than potential partner or follower relationships or else there's a good chance we'll wind up just shooting ourselves in the foot.

I've thought about this. It's a good post. Being a gang leader myself, I can't really say I know any of my 'team'. That said, the symp-master relationship outlined above would certainly accommodate a single killer, since any symp-master relationship has essentially lost its meaning. So now we have a whole town team, likely speckled with roles, but our ability to track on-thread symp relationships has been hamstrung. I can't say I've seen this sort of game in the few I've played.

fixed 'have' to 'has'

This post has been edited by Korabas: 16 April 2014 - 11:24 PM

[Eloth]

Super busy on phone back before timeout

[Kessobahn]

Korabas, on 16 April 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

Okral Lom, on 16 April 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Out of curiosity Korabas, what's your opinion on this post of Denul's, specifically the stuff about Warlord symps?

Denul, on 16 April 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

Ok so this is the other point I wanted to bring up about mechanics and scum hunting in this game.

PS did retcon the "majority" from the scum VCs as potentially just "parity". So it could be that Kenshiro really is alone, or it could be that he has followers, we don't know. Either way, we only need to eliminate Kenshiro to win.

I do think and have expressed that I think we are too gung-ho to jump on signalling accusations etc, but that is not to say that looking for killers/lead scum via links to/from their followers/partners is not useful and worth doing. Normally!

The problem is, this game has the three gang leaders each of whom may have followers that they know or that know them. The sign-up thread said the game "Contains some variations of typical roles" so there could be any kind of role out there.

Looking for Kenshiro based on player interactions like a basic symp-master interaction is not going to work. If Kenshiro has any allies, there could be four similar partnerships out there with only one being scum. If Kenshiro is on his own after all, there could be three out there and none are scum.

Just something for everyone else to keep in mind. We need to focus on individual behaviours more than potential partner or follower relationships or else there's a good chance we'll wind up just shooting ourselves in the foot.

I've thought about this. It's a good post. Being a gang leader myself, I can't really say I know any of my 'team'. That said, the symp-master relationship outlined above would certainly accommodate a single killer, since any symp-master relationship has essentially lost its meaning. So now we have a whole town team, likely speckled with roles, but our ability to track on-thread symp relationships has been hamstrung. I can't say I've seen this sort of game in the few I've played.

fixed 'have' to 'has'

Any particular reason you just held up a "Kill me now Kenshiro" sign?

[Korabas]

Lock, on 16 April 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

I might check in again in a couple of hours, but I also might not be able to, so I'll place my vote down as I definitely won't be around at timeout.


Vote Ruse


Not for the possible gloating or whatever, but for the stuff which I picked out. As I said, out of the three I've looked at closely today, Ruse is the one who quirks the old eyebrow the most. Doesn't rear their head except to make the odd comment, usually either fluff or very general. The times when that hasn't been the case, i.e. to disagree about possible motives behind the killing of Monok, have actually struck me as the most unusual. Why repeatedly make the same statement? More than that, if you disagree in the basis, then I would also expect to see an alternative posited. Ruse has more than once said that Monok was killed because he was "on to something" but without actually expounding upon what they think that might have been.

Ruse is essentially saying, as far as I can understand, that Monok was right about Denul. That means Ruse is essentially positing the same case that MO did. Now I've already said that I liked the way Monok presented the early case, even though it seemed to rely on a sort of behavioural analysis that is not as effective early game. I didn't vote alongside him then because there was not enough evidence on thread to back it up. Ruse is just relying on Monok's case without expanding it. Couple that with his tendency to parrot things that have already been said and I think we have found someone who wants to coast under the radar. I mean, town have no reason to kick back and coast.

Vote Ruse


Denul is a very close second. I base this on his reaction and flurry of posts day 1, and his convenient appearance day two. When considered with Monok's proposed case, I think there might be something to this.

[Kessobahn]

Remove Vote

[Kessobahn]

I'm okay with a Ruse lynch. But I really want to know why Korabas claims to be a warlord.

[Korabas]

Kessobahn, on 16 April 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:

Korabas, on 16 April 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

Okral Lom, on 16 April 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Out of curiosity Korabas, what's your opinion on this post of Denul's, specifically the stuff about Warlord symps?

Denul, on 16 April 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

Ok so this is the other point I wanted to bring up about mechanics and scum hunting in this game.

PS did retcon the "majority" from the scum VCs as potentially just "parity". So it could be that Kenshiro really is alone, or it could be that he has followers, we don't know. Either way, we only need to eliminate Kenshiro to win.

I do think and have expressed that I think we are too gung-ho to jump on signalling accusations etc, but that is not to say that looking for killers/lead scum via links to/from their followers/partners is not useful and worth doing. Normally!

The problem is, this game has the three gang leaders each of whom may have followers that they know or that know them. The sign-up thread said the game "Contains some variations of typical roles" so there could be any kind of role out there.

Looking for Kenshiro based on player interactions like a basic symp-master interaction is not going to work. If Kenshiro has any allies, there could be four similar partnerships out there with only one being scum. If Kenshiro is on his own after all, there could be three out there and none are scum.

Just something for everyone else to keep in mind. We need to focus on individual behaviours more than potential partner or follower relationships or else there's a good chance we'll wind up just shooting ourselves in the foot.

I've thought about this. It's a good post. Being a gang leader myself, I can't really say I know any of my 'team'. That said, the symp-master relationship outlined above would certainly accommodate a single killer, since any symp-master relationship has essentially lost its meaning. So now we have a whole town team, likely speckled with roles, but our ability to track on-thread symp relationships has been hamstrung. I can't say I've seen this sort of game in the few I've played.

fixed 'have' to 'has'

Any particular reason you just held up a "Kill me now Kenshiro" sign?

I'm not saying that Denul is right to disregard symps. I don't know about my own symps. The other warlords probably don't either. And I should add, there really is no reason for town to try and symp a leader. Hopefully we can now look at symp cases form this point on without immediately questioning whether or not it is a town symp. If there is a perceived symp case from this point, it is either a scum symp OR a specifically rolled town that needs to signal to avoid a day lynch (or throw off attention).

[Okral Lom]

Korabas, on 16 April 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

Okral Lom, on 16 April 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Out of curiosity Korabas, what's your opinion on this post of Denul's, specifically the stuff about Warlord symps?

Denul, on 16 April 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

Ok so this is the other point I wanted to bring up about mechanics and scum hunting in this game.

PS did retcon the "majority" from the scum VCs as potentially just "parity". So it could be that Kenshiro really is alone, or it could be that he has followers, we don't know. Either way, we only need to eliminate Kenshiro to win.

I do think and have expressed that I think we are too gung-ho to jump on signalling accusations etc, but that is not to say that looking for killers/lead scum via links to/from their followers/partners is not useful and worth doing. Normally!

The problem is, this game has the three gang leaders each of whom may have followers that they know or that know them. The sign-up thread said the game "Contains some variations of typical roles" so there could be any kind of role out there.

Looking for Kenshiro based on player interactions like a basic symp-master interaction is not going to work. If Kenshiro has any allies, there could be four similar partnerships out there with only one being scum. If Kenshiro is on his own after all, there could be three out there and none are scum.

Just something for everyone else to keep in mind. We need to focus on individual behaviours more than potential partner or follower relationships or else there's a good chance we'll wind up just shooting ourselves in the foot.

I've thought about this. It's a good post. Being a gang leader myself, I can't really say I know any of my 'team'. That said, the symp-master relationship outlined above would certainly accommodate a single killer, since any symp-master relationship has essentially lost its meaning. So now we have a whole town team, likely speckled with roles, but our ability to track on-thread symp relationships has been hamstrung. I can't say I've seen this sort of game in the few I've played.

fixed 'have' to 'has'

OK, was not expecting a reveal. That feels...foolish? And I'm struggling to reconcile that with your continued statements that Denul is high on your list of targets.

EDIT: X-Post

This post has been edited by Okral Lom: 16 April 2014 - 11:42 PM

[Korabas]

Denul suggested that symp cases are useless. From what I know, they shouldn't be, as town have really no reason to symp. He would know that if he was a warlord, and maybe even if he was town. So at the same time he tries to undermine symp cases and demonstrates that his role is not part of the town 'teams'. Am I making sense here?

[Okral Lom]

Korabas, on 16 April 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

Denul suggested that symp cases are useless. From what I know, they shouldn't be, as town have really no reason to symp. He would know that if he was a warlord, and maybe even if he was town. So at the same time he tries to undermine symp cases and demonstrates that his role is not part of the town 'teams'. Am I making sense here?

OK, that makes sense in a vacuum, but what about Ampelas' earlier post where he independently describes the same mechanic?

Ampelas, on 15 April 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

Just caught up and what the hell is going on?

I could interpret half the posts on the first few pages as signalling should I so desire. All you idiots wise up - we don't need to signal our Warlord who we are so cut it out. The only people on thread remotely considering signalling should be symps, every one else of you is painting a bull's-eye on someone else for Kenshiro.

This was from Day 1 (eg. well before Denul said anything). So are you saying they're both lying? Because that seems like a stretch.


EDIT: Formatting

This post has been edited by Okral Lom: 16 April 2014 - 11:56 PM

[Korabas]

I actually did not see Amp's post. I bet Amp is telling the truth, and Denul is probably lying. Warlords can't signal even if they wanted to. Is Amp saying that town know their warlord? In that case, they shouldn't need to signal unless their warlord is helping push a case on them, and even then that would be stupid since, as Amp states, that would be "painting a bull's-eye on someone else for Kenshiro"

[Lock]

Korabas, on 16 April 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

Denul suggested that symp cases are useless. From what I know, they shouldn't be, as town have really no reason to symp. He would know that if he was a warlord, and maybe even if he was town. So at the same time he tries to undermine symp cases and demonstrates that his role is not part of the town 'teams'. Am I making sense here?

I'm afraid that I don't understand the reason for the reveal at all, so you may have to explain it again. Forgetting the whole warlords thing, and breaking it down to its simplest, if some town players know other town players, then they may well come out in their defence if they see them in trouble. If nothing else, it's just natural. Now, in this game, it's very likely that some town players know other town players, so what I thought Denul was saying was that when we see things which might look like scum symping, it could actually quite likely be something more benign.

[Okral Lom]

Korabas, on 17 April 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

I actually did not see Amp's post. I bet Amp is telling the truth, and Denul is probably lying. Warlords can't signal even if they wanted to. Is Amp saying that town know their warlord? In that case, they shouldn't need to signal unless their warlord is helping push a case on them, and even then that would be stupid since, as Amp states, that would be "painting a bull's-eye on someone else for Kenshiro"

Hmm, I'm not sure this was worth painting a bull's-eye on your own back for . I'm willing to consider the notion that Denul saw Ampelas' post and then stored it off to brandish at an appropriate time to try to PI himself, although beyond his guilt being your initial starting point I don't see why that's a more likely hypothesis than him having the same knowledge and choosing to share it.

[Okral Lom]

Right, in any case I think I'm going to have to put a vote down on Ruse as my thread participation is coming to a close for the Game day. His lack of substantial content even after prodding was notable. From my point of view neither he, Shadow nor Rikkter have provided much in the way of useful play, and if there's one thing I can't abide its players who don't pull their weight. I am not as fussed by Ruse raising of the spectre of an FM as some of the others are in and of itself, but what is unacceptable is pointing that out and expecting it to be a substitute for any real analysis/work. So best case is that he's scum who can't bring himself to make cases because he knows everyone else is innocent. Worst case is that he's a townie who isn't putting in the necessary effort. Frankly, the latter are no use to town anyway, so I'm happy with that all things considered.

Vote Ruse

[Okral Lom]

Goodnight all!

[Korabas]

Lock, on 17 April 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

Korabas, on 16 April 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

Denul suggested that symp cases are useless. From what I know, they shouldn't be, as town have really no reason to symp. He would know that if he was a warlord, and maybe even if he was town. So at the same time he tries to undermine symp cases and demonstrates that his role is not part of the town 'teams'. Am I making sense here?

I'm afraid that I don't understand the reason for the reveal at all, so you may have to explain it again. Forgetting the whole warlords thing, and breaking it down to its simplest, if some town players know other town players, then they may well come out in their defence if they see them in trouble. If nothing else, it's just natural. Now, in this game, it's very likely that some town players know other town players, so what I thought Denul was saying was that when we see things which might look like scum symping, it could actually quite likely be something more benign.

I think it comes down to the nature of the defence. If a town comes to the warlord's defence, it must be by offering up a better case, rather than a direct confrontation. A good town in this game will have to avoid drawing attention to their own warlord. If town comes across an instance wherein someone is overtly defending another player -- especially if reactionary -- then we can know that they are likely scum. The more deperate the defence, the more likely we're dealing with scum. Now scum can take a similar route in defending Kenshiro (if he is in fact not alone), but my bet is that it will have to be a rather overt defence. A town player could also be desperate in their defence, but my guess is that this would likely happen later in the game, maybe when two of us have been taken out.

My reveal may be a short term loss, but I'm hoping it helps in the long run. We essentially understand town's dynamic. Anything that does not conform to this dynamic is either scum play, or terrible town play.

[Lock]

Korabas, on 17 April 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

Lock, on 17 April 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

Korabas, on 16 April 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

Denul suggested that symp cases are useless. From what I know, they shouldn't be, as town have really no reason to symp. He would know that if he was a warlord, and maybe even if he was town. So at the same time he tries to undermine symp cases and demonstrates that his role is not part of the town 'teams'. Am I making sense here?

I'm afraid that I don't understand the reason for the reveal at all, so you may have to explain it again. Forgetting the whole warlords thing, and breaking it down to its simplest, if some town players know other town players, then they may well come out in their defence if they see them in trouble. If nothing else, it's just natural. Now, in this game, it's very likely that some town players know other town players, so what I thought Denul was saying was that when we see things which might look like scum symping, it could actually quite likely be something more benign.

I think it comes down to the nature of the defence. If a town comes to the warlord's defence, it must be by offering up a better case, rather than a direct confrontation. A good town in this game will have to avoid drawing attention to their own warlord. If town comes across an instance wherein someone is overtly defending another player -- especially if reactionary -- then we can know that they are likely scum. The more deperate the defence, the more likely we're dealing with scum. Now scum can take a similar route in defending Kenshiro (if he is in fact not alone), but my bet is that it will have to be a rather overt defence. A town player could also be desperate in their defence, but my guess is that this would likely happen later in the game, maybe when two of us have been taken out.

My reveal may be a short term loss, but I'm hoping it helps in the long run. We essentially understand town's dynamic. Anything that does not conform to this dynamic is either scum play, or terrible town play.

I don't know. You're making several awfully big assumptions. First, you're (not for the first time) talking about ways of behaviour, and how others would play the game if they had certain roles. I think that's seriously flawed. Everyone plays differently, and many people play much the same way no matter which role/what info they have. Second, you assume that everyone's situation (or, at least, every warlord's) is the same as yours. We already know from PS that the 'factions' are distributed unevenly, why not other things too?

I think this was a mistake on your part, to be honest. Better you were lynched than killed, as at least then it would remove that path to victory for Kenshiro.

[Korabas]

I'm starting to think that Denul undermining symp cases might be an excellent scum tactic. If we weren't so late in the day, I'd be tempted to change my vote. As is, I think we have about 5 hours, and we need a couple more votes to lynch Ruse.

I realize I might have made myself useless, but hopefully my team can use whatever role they have (if they have any) to help out the other town players. When I made the reveal I thought it would manage to help town cases in the long run, and it also allowed me to explore my suspicions with regards to Denul. I'm a bit less confident of my decision at this point...

[Kessobahn]

Path-Shaper, on 16 April 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

It is Day 2.

6 hours and 18 minutes are left.

14 players alive.
Alkend, Ampelas, Bek Okhan, Denul, Eloth, Galayn Lord, Kessobahn, Korabas, Lock, Okral Lom, Rikkter, Ruse, Shadow, Tiamatha

8 votes to lynch, 8 to go to night.

1 vote Shadow: Tiamatha
1 vote Denul: Shadow
4 votes Ruse: Kessobahn, Galayn Lord, Alkend, Lock

Players not voted: Ampelas, Bek Okhan, Denul, Eloth, Korabas, Okral Lom, Rikkter, Ruse
]

6 votes Ruse: Galayn Lord, Alkend, Lock, Denul, Korabas, Okral Lom,

Edit: so 4 hours 50 minutes or so

This post has been edited by Kessobahn: 17 April 2014 - 12:39 AM

[Kessobahn]

Korabas, on 17 April 2014 - 12:35 AM, said:

I'm starting to think that Denul undermining symp cases might be an excellent scum tactic. If we weren't so late in the day, I'd be tempted to change my vote. As is, I think we have about 5 hours, and we need a couple more votes to lynch Ruse.

I realize I might have made myself useless, but hopefully my team can use whatever role they have (if they have any) to help out the other town players. When I made the reveal I thought it would manage to help town cases in the long run, and it also allowed me to explore my suspicions with regards to Denul. I'm a bit less confident of my decision at this point...

Never do what you can't undo until you've fully considered every thing you can't do once you've done it.