[Tiste Simeon]

Aha thank you.

[Silencer]

You can read more on Wikipedia: Torture and the 'International Perception' sections, specifically.

Though it should be obvious that severe isolation from other people isn't healthy or conducive to good thought patterns, especially involuntary and protracted instances.

Besides, the US standards for prisons are notably lower than most other "first world" nations (probably notwithstanding Russia and China, but even then...).

While in principle I disagree with the "comfortable life" prison setups (and, incidentally, in NZ...they do actually get referred to as "hotels" by criminals - that doesn't necessarily mean that it's pleasant, but it does imply that the standard of living inside a prison is higher than the standard of living said people experience outside of prison; this could be argued to highlight a deficiency in living standards in the general population rather than an excessive luxury of prisons, though. Then again, we're NZ, what the fuck am I talking about? XD) it really doesn't help anyone to make prisons shitty places to be. As much as it might satisfy one's darker desires to see nasty people endure nasty things, it has been pretty thoroughly investigated and the results are more or less clear; bad prisons produce worse criminals, good prisons are more likely to rehabilitate them.

Though, if you're a serious recidivist, or your trial was a landslide of evidence (like; video tapes of you doing it), and your sentence is life? Then one could argue that there is no reason to go above the barest minimum level of necessity for your future care. There would be no justifiable reason to treat said person with any more quality of life than what someone earning the minimum wage could afford if they were moderately frivolous with their income, because clearly rehabilitation is not going to happen/is not an option. But putting people straight into that sort of situation when they're going in for six months, a year, or for lesser crimes? That's just asking for trouble in the future. (And yes, I'm aware, given the subject, that sentences can be appealed, and that parole can be granted - but seriously, if you're in jail again, for your third or more round of a significant sentence, after being treated fairly and undergoing rehabilitation, or you have actual conclusive video evidence that you committed a horrific crime like murder, these considerations are surely moot?)

[Gabriel Chase]

Surely if he were an actual combatant committing an act of war we could respond in kind by shooting him dead?

[Cause]

He is arguing himself into a worse sentence. Since he is British born he is a citizen of Britain right? He therefore committed an act of treason by committing an act of war against a British solder (his own admission) or else he can be tried as a spy since again as a British citizen in plain clothing he committed an act of war against Britain. I don't know but I imagine the punishment in either case must be as severe of worse than his current sentence.

[Tiste Simeon]

 Gabriel Chase, on 10 April 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

Surely if he were an actual combatant committing an act of war we could respond in kind by shooting him dead?

Well they wanted the armed response officers to kill them at the time so they could become martyrs then and there. It didn't happen, and now they have to face the consequences. This is something they admitted to.

 Cause, on 10 April 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

He is arguing himself into a worse sentence. Since he is British born he is a citizen of Britain right? He therefore committed an act of treason by committing an act of war against a British solder (his own admission) or else he can be tried as a spy since again as a British citizen in plain clothing he committed an act of war against Britain. I don't know but I imagine the punishment in either case must be as severe of worse than his current sentence.

Huh. Didn't think of that. I think the state is basically ignoring his "war cries" if you like and focussing it on being a murder. After all it wasn't in an active war zone and it was against an unarmed opponent. Yes, I understand that in active war zones it is usually the unarmed opponents are the ones who end up on the receiving end of the mayhem, but I guess the difference being that it is an active war zone is enough for it to count in one situation and not the other...

[Tsundoku]

I'm definitely against solitary confinement for these turds. Put them in general population, and wait for the situation to be messily resolved within a few weeks. It also saves the UK taxpayer the cost of taking care of them plus any appeals etc. Win-win.

[Macros]

related I think

Bumped this thread because to me it is now a discussion on prison set ups, and the justice system.

why this is interesting to me, our guys are heading up there to do some work on the prison, as well as assess the damage and price remedial works.

now what the article (and the sps themselves) has been closing over is the fact that they took a guard hostage for 14 hours, they lit the fucking place on fire and tore toilets off the walls in the cells.
what were they rioting for? Disgraceful conditions perchance?

unlikely, over 50% of the guards retired from the new set up, the head of Health and safety quit and sent an email to the entire sps staff saying he would return when there was a govenor that treated staff better than prisoners. So again, why were they rioting?
they felt like it, and knew they would get away with it. They've been getting away with it since the day the new prison (with its new soft touch govenor) opened.

This is probably a pointless post, but the new prison pisses me off so much. These wankers rioted and wrecked the place, and entire wing is now uninhabitable and the lags are being shipped to acceptable quarters. fuck that. They fucking trashed the place, put them in shittier facilities. Keep down grading until they learn to behave.


blegh, just venting as guys are being pulled from my job to sort this shit and we need to mob up not down right now.

[Tiste Simeon]

 Macros, on 19 May 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

So again, why were they rioting?
they felt like it, and knew they would get away with it. They've been getting away with it since the day the new prison (with its new soft touch govenor) opened.

That's the key point there, they know they can get away with it. If the riot had been quelled a lot quicker there would be cries of brutality and breaches of human rights etc.

[Studlock]

I don't the vast majority of prison riots happen because the prisoners think they can get away with it (which is a basis for an argument to be harder on the prison population, which statistically speaking actually leads to more crime, at least in Canada and the USA, I am not quiet sure about Scotland though). I personally think that's an absurdly simple view on the subject. Prisons are going to always be natural places of social unrest as they are highly-controlled with serve limits on personal freedom. This could easily create a situation where people act in aggressively for no reason other than the act they want to act out. I do not condone the prisoners action but to say they act this way because they think they can get away with is to ignore prison riots have happen as long as prisons have existed in harsher terms, with harsher punishments balance above the heads of prisoners who still, despite what was surely a serve punishment waiting, riot.

And personally I think we should decry all actions that breaches humans right no matter the situation, it socially reinforces that such actions are morally wrong and that normalization of such thoughts go along way.

(sidenote: prison riots are actually surprisingly understudied in the social sciences, and if I had to put my semi-informed opinion forward I would said such things are not dissimilar to the situations that lead to rebellions, the societal control, the power imbalance between the 'rulers' and 'citizens', they inherent actions that underline the wanting to control ones actions and so on...anyways an interesting topic.)

[Macros]

A further follow up (yes I agree this is entirely anecdotal, but we get a much clearer insight into the prison set up than most)
Boss was back this morning after assessing the damage and speaking tk the guards.

as to why the riot happened. The lags were pissed up on prison hooch, and took offence to the impending ward search which might have cost them their illicit booze. So they kicked off.

heres the extend to which they kicked of (the total repair bill will most definitely run well into the 6 figures, high 6 figures)
Those lovely pool and snooker tables they were given? Ripped to pieces, to get to the slate bed.
the slate bed was them shattered and the shards were used to attacks every camera, light fitting, toilet, wash bowl and window in the entire wing. Nothing survived.
the entire fire alarm system was ripped out, and the serveries set on fire. They used the remains of the pool table to batter their way through the shutters to get in there.
the sprinkler system was then attacked, as they couldn't get the water to run in the cells (its on a specialised anti flood system, push buttons open a valve for like 30 seconds at a time only)
so the sprinkler system was bust open and the water ran for 14 hours, there's a master shutdown for the building that couldn't be activated because there was a guard being held hostage.
so the entire two floors below that wing are also ruined with water damage.
but that's not all, oh no.
not content with vandalising everything in the rooms, they proceeded them to start systematically busting the doors off their cells (now these a re heavy 2 inch doors, it must have taken some work, when with heavy slabs of slate, they have my grudging respect for taking those bad boys down)

so, in short, the tax payer foots the bill to the tune of probably £500,000, because the risons had managed to brew up some super juice and went fucking apeshit. How were they able to brew enough? The new govna has decided its not fair to search cells randomly, the lags deserve the guards trust.
Again, this shit did not go down in old Peterhead, the riot squad was called the second anything kicked off and it was put to bed sharply. Call it brutal if you want, there have been more.violent incidents in 2 mo the than old Peterhead logged in 18.

further fun facts, this was in the short termers wing, so minor criminals and petty crimes, they have caught them all on camera before they were smashed down obviously and 50% will be hauled into court next week over it and probably have their term doubled. Because the guards have to trust the lags to be good little boys and not search their cells.

sorry stud, I see where you're coming from, but in this particular case you are wrong, a little bit more discipline and the riot simply would not have happened. You have to earn trust and respect, its not a right.

[Studlock]

That's pretty much what I described, a conflict of social control and the want for personal freedom (in this case the freedom to get blasted off of some toilet vodka). I'm not in anyway suggesting the prisoners shouldn't be disciplined, obviously they should, all I'm saying is things like this is far more complex than 'if only we beat the shit out of the prisoners more they'll stop rioting because they'll know they can't get away with it'. There is a long history of prison brutality and a equally long history of prison riots. I'd suggest, without any evidence so prepare the words with popcorn levels of salt, that there might not even be a correlation between the discipline of the prison and riots let along a causation (either negative or positive).

Then again I don't know much about the Scottish prison system, it might indeed be heaven for criminals.

(and just so you don't think I'm being snobbish, I use to think that more discipline was the answer, being from a crime-ridden community (as much as one can be in Canada outside of reservations) but statistically and scientifically speaking more punishments leads to more crime (that's the stats) and over all punishment is not a very good method to use when you want someone to change their behaviour (that's the social psychology) so while I personally feel affronted sometimes when scumbags get to get off seemingly easy off my tax dollars while I'm struggling in relative poverty I try to keep perspective and believe SE when he writes compassion should be given freely and often, no matter who the receiver is.)

[Morgoth]

Norway's prison system is much nicer to the prisoners than that of Scotland, or anywhere else for that matter. Yet there are no prison riots here.

[Macros]

Norwegians are nicer people in general though

I'm not suggesting we go in and batter the shit out of them, (rereading my post it might come off like that, I was more trying to emphasise the idea that lags weren't given the free reign in the old prison and things weren't as bad) a quick look at america prison system will tell you that doesn't work. I'm suggesting a carrot and stick, you start in 2 star living standards, you behave you get an upgrade, fuck about, down grade. Very simple reward system, hell its how we taught our dog not to shit on the kitchen floor (there might have been some cursing involved)

Martin, I know you have a legal back ground and probably have a reasonable gauge on what norways system is like, but what happens in prisons rarely makes news, grampions riots are only getting paper inches because its a high profile brand new prison. The stabbing in the opening days didn't blip the medias radar at all.
again, something we are unlikely to agree upon, Imo the British prison service is a joke I think basic standards of living should be met, everything else is a bonus that should he earned via good behaviour. A very basic system of good boy gets a treat, not bad boy does what he wants and still gets his tv.

[tiam]

I know this is a comedy article and also applies to the american justice system but still worth a read in regards to why they have extra benefits, ingenuity etc

http://www.cracked.c...out-prison.html

[Cause]

 Morgoth, on 21 May 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Norway's prison system is much nicer to the prisoners than that of Scotland, or anywhere else for that matter. Yet there are no prison riots here.

I won't even begin to pretend to understand human behaviour but for whatever reason different countries exhibit different behaviours. Why could I leave my laptop unguarded in a hotel room in Japan but not in south Africa? Why does school shooting make me think of America? The types of crimes that occur in a country and the way they are done are shaped by a host of socio-economic factors that I doubt we could ever understand. Comparing a prison in Norway with a prison in Scotland or anywhere else is probably of little value.

PS any news on the original issue? What happened to Mr Rigby?