[Tiste Simeon]

Story

So yeah. Because he claims he didn't murder the soldier, he committed an act of war, he believes he shouldn't serve a whole life sentence. This is despite the fact that he publicly beheaded him, encouraged people to film the act and bragged about it on camera. I think the audacity of this plus the brutality of the act shows he clearly has no remorse and it and I don't know how anyone could bear to represent him, let alone try and get him a reduced sentence.

But knowing the way the justice system in this country works, he'll probably get his sentence halved... [/cynicism]

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

At times like this I wish we had the death penalty still, or harsher prisons, where complete douches like this guy can rot away miserable, cramped and uncomfortable beyond words, or hung and slowly suffocating. Either way would please me.

I have friends in the army, the TA (of various regiments) hell I even began joining myself but I had to move home and job etc and it became none viable. Our justice system is beyond a jke at times and our so called prisons are havens for many who want an 'easy' life not working and sitting around all day. I designed prison carrier trucks a few years ago and the health & safety requirements for prisoners is off the chain! They travel better than anybody perfect temperature, 'x' amount of room, food and drink served in transit. Its crazy!

Anger induced comments aside, I hope this guy gets killed in prison or terribly abused, and that is a genuine hope

[Aptorian]

What always bothers me about these so called martyrs is that they claim that they are willing to die for their cause but as soon as they are about to get punished for their actions, then suddenly they demand a lighter sentence because they are doing gods work or what ever.

If you can't do the time, don't cut a random soldiers head off on a public street in front of live cameras.

[Macros]

I whole heartedly agree that the British justice system is a joke, its prison service (having been involved in the construction of the latest super prison) is farcical.
I understand that some penal systems take petty criminals and churn out hardened thugs.
I get that people deserve a certain standard of living.

what I don't get is how anyone can think convicted paedophiles and murderers deserve a colour tv in their cell, 5 (that's five) astroturf all weather pitches (when the nearby school still plays on a rabbit holed dogshit covered field), basketball courts and gyms.
A pool table, snooker table and foozball (sp?) table in every wing. Every wing, in one house block alone that's 12 of each and cigarettes they can smoke in their cell whenever they want.
if a lag smashes their tv it will be replaced within 24 hours as its their 'right' to have access to it.

I think the time should fit the crime, and I don't just mean longevity. The second you start acting up all privileges should be revoked, fuck that privileges have to be earned.

There was someone stabbed in the first week of the prison being opened, that asshole (the stabber not the stabbee) should have been thrown in solitary for a month, then put in the lock down after that until he learned actions have consequences.
If I'm too broke to afford care when I'm older I'm going to rob a bank, if I get away with it, Ive got the money, if not I get 24hr medical and dental care, 3 meals a day and can watch bargain hunt all day fucking long.

But back on topic, my views on terrorism and what's constitutes a POW are probably too entrenched to get into any debate here (not that there seems to be much of a debate yet)
If he's a soldier in a war, he's been captured, and can rot until the wars over, oh wait the war on terror has no end in sight? Well that looks like a life sentence to me then pal.

Edit -
also, give them exercise equipment fine, cardio only. The guards admit some of the guys go and pump iron until they're basically unrestrainable without a full riot patrol to bring them down.

This post has been edited by Macros: 08 April 2014 - 03:43 PM

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

Macros, on 08 April 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

I whole heartedly agree that the British justice system is a joke, its prison service (having been involved in the construction of the latest super prison) is farcical.
I understand that some penal systems take petty criminals and churn out hardened thugs.
I get that people deserve a certain standard of living.

what I don't get is how anyone can think convicted paedophiles and murderers deserve a colour tv in their cell, 5 (that's five) astroturf all weather pitches (when the nearby school still plays on a rabbit holed dogshit covered field), basketball courts and gyms.
A pool table, snooker table and foozball (sp?) table in every wing. Every wing, in one house block alone that's 12 of each and cigarettes they can smoke in their cell whenever they want.
if a lag smashes their tv it will be replaced within 24 hours as its their 'right' to have access to it.

I think the time should fit the crime, and I don't just mean longevity. The second you start acting up all privileges should be revoked, fuck that privileges have to be earned.

There was someone stabbed in the first week of the prison being opened, that asshole (the stabber not the stabbee) should have been thrown in solitary for a month, then put in the lock down after that until he learned actions have consequences.
If I'm too broke to afford care when I'm older I'm going to rob a bank, if I get away with it, Ive got the money, if not I get 24hr medical and dental care, 3 meals a day and can watch bargain hunt all day fucking long.

But back on topic, my views on terrorism and what's constitutes a POW are probably too entrenched to get into any debate here (not that there seems to be much of a debate yet)
If he's a soldier in a war, he's been captured, and can rot until the wars over, oh wait the war on terror has no end in sight? Well that looks like a life sentence to me then pal.

Edit -
also, give them exercise equipment fine, cardio only. The guards admit some of the guys go and pump iron until they're basically unrestrainable without a full riot patrol to bring them down.

I agree with every damn word you said (wrote)...my question to you is, when are you running for Parliament so I may vote for you and get everyone else in the UK to do the same!

[Tiste Simeon]

I wonder if some lawyer has encouraged him to get the appeal going as he will get paid nicely, even though he knows the chances of winning are low...

[Morgoth]

Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai, on 08 April 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

At times like this I wish we had the death penalty still, or harsher prisons, where complete douches like this guy can rot away miserable, cramped and uncomfortable beyond words, or hung and slowly suffocating. Either way would please me.

I have friends in the army, the TA (of various regiments) hell I even began joining myself but I had to move home and job etc and it became none viable. Our justice system is beyond a jke at times and our so called prisons are havens for many who want an 'easy' life not working and sitting around all day. I designed prison carrier trucks a few years ago and the health & safety requirements for prisoners is off the chain! They travel better than anybody perfect temperature, 'x' amount of room, food and drink served in transit. Its crazy!

Anger induced comments aside, I hope this guy gets killed in prison or terribly abused, and that is a genuine hope

Ah yes, this is a popular piece of nonsense that I see repeated now and then in the more right wing parts of the media. It's a nice idea to use when one needs the heat of moral indignation to keep going. However, despite valiant efforts no reputable data have been found to show that the whole chosing prison as a hotel/easy life/whatever thing exist.

What we do know, however, is that there is a direct correlation between how well a person is treated in prison and the probability of that person returning to prison once the sentence is served. The better a person is treated the less chance of that person comitting another crime once released.

@Mat - You think they should get a black and white tv? I'd think that would be quite a bit more expensive to buy, no? No tv? Well, again, studies show that access to television provides prisoners with a connection to the outside world which makes it easier for them to adapt to normal life once they are released. If you lock someone up for ten years, with no access to the outsed world until they are released they will fail at reintegrating into society. What happens when convicted fellon fails to reintegrate into society? They commit new crimes.

[Tiste Simeon]

Why then do so many recommit? I personally know a bunch of them who, as soon as they're out, burglary & car crime rates go up. These are the ones in the slightly lower security prisons (not gone up to murdering etc. yet). Do you not think that prison should serve as a deterrent to crime as well as a way of keeping those committing it off the streets?

[Morgoth]

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 08 April 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

I wonder if some lawyer has encouraged him to get the appeal going as he will get paid nicely, even though he knows the chances of winning are low...

You might want to read up a little on a) how your criminal system functions, and b ) the average income of a barrister working in criminal defence.

Attacks on lawyers is always fun, of course, but typically based alomst entirely on ignorance.

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 09 April 2014 - 07:48 AM

[Morgoth]

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 09 April 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Why then do so many recommit? I personally know a bunch of them who, as soon as they're out, burglary & car crime rates go up. These are the ones in the slightly lower security prisons (not gone up to murdering etc. yet). Do you not think that prison should serve as a deterrent to crime as well as a way of keeping those committing it off the streets?

Look, if there is one thing that has been proven far beyond necessity, it is that bad conditions within a prison increase crime. It has no measurable effect as a deterrent and it increases the chance of a prisoner returning to prison after release. Just look to the US if you want a real life example, though there are many many others.

[Macros]

Alright morgy, I agree with you on the point of harsh penal systems create thugs (pretty close to my wording in my original post)
however you will also note I was discussing the bottom end of the spectrum, and suggesting worse crimes deserve a worse punishment (I used to agree with the death penalty but beyond reasonable doubt is not enough justification, there would need to be 100% certainty, and how likely is that so its on the no pile for me now)
Violent criminals go in and stab people and riot in general population, call it product of the environment if you want, making cushier prisons hasn't made them stop, ask any long serving prison guard. Any of the old timers will tell you, bad fuckers will be bad fuckers, giving them an inch lets them reach for a mile. They are given kettles in their rooms to make tea.
what do they do? They use the element to melt their tooth brushes and razors down to make shivs.
they boil the kettle with sugar and water. Why the sugar? It sticks to peoples faces in stead of just scalding them.
they put pool balls in socks and thump people
this is people being bad people.

my point and case was privileges should be earned, you want a tv? Behave
you want to smoke in your room? Behave
you want to be allowed to play pool? Behave
you want to go play football? FUCKING BEHAVE

I joke about lawyers being filthy money grubbers a lot but a legal aid provided barrister is not where the money is.
the money is in the lawyers defending corporate fraud and the like, those are the soulless monsters I despise

Morgy this is probably an area where our agreement is unlikely, suffice to say I agree systems such as Americas three strike and other nations fight club prisons do not work. But I also view our prison system as a joke, it is not a deterrent, its a cushy number, I've seen inside them, talked to most of the guards in one, Ive worked in live prisons. Lags do whatever the fuck they want and get away with it, the guards wont go in if some of the big lads are kicking off, they're literally terrified of some of them. Yet still they provide these muscle bound thugs with a fully equipped gym to stay in shape, fuck that. You start a fight your gym rights are stripped until.....you behave

[Morgoth]

Ah, well I don't personally think there's anything wrong with tying privileges to behaviour. My point is simply that bad conditions do not function as a deterrent. Having to behave for privileges is different I would think, though I can't remember having read anything on that particular subject.

Incidentally, one of the most efficient tools for rehabilitation is single prisoner cells.

[Macros]

Afaik there's only a few shared cells per wing in grampion, most are single cell, anywhere between 12 and 30ish per wing. Each wing is gated but has the rec stuff and mini gym in the wing corridor for 'everyone' to use. In reality the biggest baddest bastard in the wing is in charge of who gets to use what and the guards look the other way because you need the riot gear to stop them beating up inmates to establish their authority.

[Kanubis]

This is up there with Anders Brevik claiming he's being 'tortured' because he's only got a PS2 and is only given children's games to play on it. I actually think giving him children's games is a wonderfully ironic punishment, but there you go.

I'm in a bit of a halfway house on this. I suppose I sit where you two are starting meet - the facilities should be there but as a carrot, rather than a base entitlement. Positive Reinforcement seems to an effective thing.

Where my inherent leftyism fails me is that I do believe the human mind can be fucked beyond repair. I believe strongly in a rehabilitation based penal system, I just don't think it's always possible. For those cases? Allow them basic dignity I suppose. I sort of prefer the idea that they rot without the chance to see the rest of the world as fucked as they are.

[Tiste Simeon]

Morgoth, on 09 April 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

Attacks on lawyers is always fun, of course, but typically based alomst entirely on ignorance.

Please. If you want to try that one, work for the police. I'm surprised this whole case with the Lee Rugby killers isn't somehow the polices fault... It usually is somehow...

And yes before you say it, we are held to a higher standard and yes corrupt officers need to have more severe punishments but it seems every time anything goes down, the government or the media or just about anyone starts pointing their fingers at the police.

But that's not the point of this thread. I agree with Mac that these things should be earned and shouldn't be demanded or a given. Having a Playstation or TV or whatever is not a human right. As for Michael A desolate, I think the court should laugh at him, put him in solitary and leave him there for 45 years. Yes he should be fed and have an hour of fresh air a day and access to a shower. I don't agree with torture or anything like completely depriving him of basic human needs. But he needs to be completely shut off and forgotten about.

[Studlock]

It's hilarious seeing a Christian being so fucking vengeful. I think the man should serve the prison time, and that in prison should be as comfortable as possible for a human being serving time for murdering a human being. That being said I'm pretty sure solitary is considered a form of torture by international standards and thus violating his basic human rights. His reasoning for a shorter term is an interesting one, one I don't really agree with but it does bring forth interesting, bigger moral questions of the nature of warfare and morality of soldiers who kill brown people the world over for money and some bent idea that they're going good in the world, oppose to a black man brutally kill a single white man for his faith (which is the argument the murderer is taking I think). Is there really a difference? I'd say yes but only because level of responsibility. This man view his faith in a very violent way, and should be punished as thus, whereas the young man who was murder was simply a part of a larger, more destructive system. For the murderer it was an individual choice whereas the young man who was killed was 'just doing his duty'.

Now back to my paper on nationalism, don't mind me.

[Morgoth]

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 09 April 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 09 April 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

Attacks on lawyers is always fun, of course, but typically based alomst entirely on ignorance.

Please. If you want to try that one, work for the police. I'm surprised this whole case with the Lee Rugby killers isn't somehow the polices fault... It usually is somehow...

And yes before you say it, we are held to a higher standard and yes corrupt officers need to have more severe punishments but it seems every time anything goes down, the government or the media or just about anyone starts pointing their fingers at the police.

But that's not the point of this thread. I agree with Mac that these things should be earned and shouldn't be demanded or a given. Having a Playstation or TV or whatever is not a human right. As for Michael A desolate, I think the court should laugh at him, put him in solitary and leave him there for 45 years. Yes he should be fed and have an hour of fresh air a day and access to a shower. I don't agree with torture or anything like completely depriving him of basic human needs. But he needs to be completely shut off and forgotten about.

Solitary confinement beyond a certain timeframe is considered torture. However, the main reason I'm responding to this post is what you wrote in the first and second paragraph. I'm a little unsure what exactly you are saying here. That it's ok for you to condem people out of ignorance because you experience the same thing from others? How else is it relevant to this thread at all unless you mean it to be some sort fo excuse?

[Aptorian]

I enjoy watching a professional lawyear trying to argue with layman in this thread. It must be like punching in a pillow.

[Tiste Simeon]

Studlock, on 09 April 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

It's hilarious seeing a Christian being so fucking vengeful.

OH NOES THE CHRISTIAN HAS FEELINGS!! Vengeful? No I think he should serve an appropriate sentence for an horrific crime.

Quote

I think the man should serve the prison time, and that in prison should be as comfortable as possible for a human being serving time for murdering a human being. That being said I'm pretty sure solitary is considered a form of torture by international standards and thus violating his basic human rights.

Quote

Solitary confinement beyond a certain timeframe is considered torture.

Thank you for pointing that out. I genuinely didn't know that. Would that be the same internationally? Maybe I have seen too many prison films or whatever but it seems in America they do it an awful lot.

Quote

His reasoning for a shorter term is an interesting one, one I don't really agree with but it does bring forth interesting, bigger moral questions of the nature of warfare and morality of soldiers who kill brown people the world over for money and some bent idea that they're going good in the world, oppose to a black man brutally kill a single white man for his faith (which is the argument the murderer is taking I think). Is there really a difference? I'd say yes but only because level of responsibility. This man view his faith in a very violent way, and should be punished as thus, whereas the young man who was murder was simply a part of a larger, more destructive system. For the murderer it was an individual choice whereas the young man who was killed was 'just doing his duty'.

I get your point and if a white man did that to a brown man in this country I would hope the sentence would be just as severe. The "doing your duty" argument is, as you say, an interesting one.

Morgoth, on 10 April 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 09 April 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 09 April 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

Attacks on lawyers is always fun, of course, but typically based alomst entirely on ignorance.

Please. If you want to try that one, work for the police. I'm surprised this whole case with the Lee Rugby killers isn't somehow the polices fault... It usually is somehow...

And yes before you say it, we are held to a higher standard and yes corrupt officers need to have more severe punishments but it seems every time anything goes down, the government or the media or just about anyone starts pointing their fingers at the police.

But that's not the point of this thread. I agree with Mac that these things should be earned and shouldn't be demanded or a given. Having a Playstation or TV or whatever is not a human right. As for Michael A desolate, I think the court should laugh at him, put him in solitary and leave him there for 45 years. Yes he should be fed and have an hour of fresh air a day and access to a shower. I don't agree with torture or anything like completely depriving him of basic human needs. But he needs to be completely shut off and forgotten about.

However, the main reason I'm responding to this post is what you wrote in the first and second paragraph. I'm a little unsure what exactly you are saying here. That it's ok for you to condem people out of ignorance because you experience the same thing from others? How else is it relevant to this thread at all unless you mean it to be some sort fo excuse?

You were berating me for attacking lawyers and that everyone does it. I was saying I get the same thing. My second paragraph was to forestall any "well it's OK to blame the police because of higher standards etc." that might have come forth. I then said it wasn't the point of the thread because I didn't want to derail into an argument about the police (as that wasn't what we were discussing really).

Apt Hoc, on 10 April 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

I enjoy watching a professional lawyear trying to argue with layman in this thread. It must be like punching in a pillow.

I know I have a slightly doughy physique, but "pillow" is a bit insulting...

[Morgoth]

@Tiste - Solitary confinement outside of a certain timeframe (I think it might be a few weeks, but I'm not sure) is considered to be in breach the United Nations Convention Against Torture, and also run afoul of the European Declaration of Human Rights.

The US has been criticised numerous times for their use of solitary confinement for months and even years.

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 10 April 2014 - 10:48 AM