[Tiste Simeon]

And now they have sacked him.

[Sir Bob]

I personally didn't think Moyes was up to the task in the first place. I know it is easy to say that now but I said it when he was appointed, just not on here. Honest...

That being said he defo deserved more time. An aging squad that he had to up shake up with his own players and style of play was always going to be more than a one year project but if you spend about 55 mill and finish out with the top four, well his sacking his hardly a surprise.

As a Man U fan who would you like at the helm now? I here Sir Alex is not doing much these days1

[Tattersail_]

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 22 April 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

And now they have sacked him.

Bad language

Spoiler

 moyes.png (321.21K)
Number of downloads: 0

I think Van Gaal is the bookies favourite.

This post has been edited by Tattersail_: 22 April 2014 - 11:49 AM

[Tiste Simeon]

Who would I like? Guardiola. Not likely to come to Utd though when he is currently managing the best team in Europe (and possibly the world). He might have come last year while we were still Champions but not now.

It will be interesting to see how Giggs and co do for the final few games, but I'm not expecting much. Having said that, the team know and respect Giggs, which seems like a bit of the problem with Moyes - no-one seemed to care about or respect him, and they screwed him over a bit. He deserved better from them, and I think this is massively the players fault as much as it is Moyes'. Should be interesting to see what happens next season.

[Tiste Simeon]

I think this article sums it up pretty well. For all the self proclaimed experts on social media and stuff, this is the best article I have seen about the Moyes era. Feel sorry for the bloke really.

[polishgenius]

I feel for Moyes and it's a bit sad to see the club be trigger-happy but I can't honestly say it's not been justified. He's fallen well, well short. He hasn't had the tactics and he hasn't shown the man-management skills.

Part of the problem though has been that the squad he inherited, while not as terrible as it's currently being made out, was very badly suited to his midfield-heavy, striker-and-winger-light style of play. He'll do well elsewhere (I can see him at Spurs or Newcastle come next season), but for those same reasons I'd really hate us to get Guardiola (well, that and I think he's a twat). Klopp would be ideal, but since that's not going to happen Van Gaal's a good, relatively safe option for solid attacking football, though I'd prefer a more long-term prospect.

[Tiste Simeon]

Yeah I have been reading up on Van Gaal this afternoon, seems like he has the balls as well as the history with winning trophies, the "pedigree" if you like. Would you actually be unhappy if Guardiola came to Utd then?

[Sir Bob]

Yeah Guardiola would probably be a top notch choice but as you say, unlikely to leave B.M. Well maybe not for a few years. He took Barca to the very top and then fancied a new challenge, could very well do the same again. So maybe not the next manager but the one after.


What about Klinsmann? Granted he has had only one year of club football(managing) but from what I can recall his Germany side was very attack minded/high tempo. The kind of style that United use to play.

[Tapper]

Tiste Brent Not Abyss Weeks Simeon, on 22 April 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

The whole "Moyes might be sacked, oh wait maybe not, but probably" thing is doing my nut in...

Link

We're turning into Chelsea and I don't like it. I have always been in the "give the man a chance" category and it annoys me that the same fans who were deriding Chelsea for the way they kept swapping managers, or Liverpool for something similar, ate now behaving in the same way!

I know that fans of other teams love what's happening at Utd but any sensible thoughts to add to the discussion?

There's a couple of things going on.

I guess, from all the reports, it already started off wrong.
Moyes came to a club where the stature of several players was bigger than his without him being a club man, so the squad didn't know who they were getting. That's a first barrier, and the decision to get rid of the entire backroom staff, bringing only Phil Neville with him who used to be at the club, made sure that all chemistry between coaches and team had to be rebuilt. On top of that, Moyes doesn't seem to be the kind of person who builds such chemistry quickly.

Then, the whole transfer farce. It's a common fact that the Glazers haven't funded the club in ages in any way that compares with the clubs earnings but let's face it: the first transfer period was a complete disgrace and the second period resulted in buying a player Moyes apparently didn't know how to use.

First, iirc the Ander Herrera transfer in the summer was easy to complete by spending 4 million more to reach the buy-out clause. Aparently Moyes wasn't sold on him, fine - but (equally) apparently United's scouting team had been high on the guy for years. Instead, that money went to overpaying Everton on Fellaini by exceeding his minimum fee release clause. On account of coming from Everton, that's always going to be seen as a manager's signing, not as one based on extensive scouting, and thus, the blame for Fellaini not playing as well as he did at Everton falls at Moyes' feet, fair or not fair. Since the guy is 50% of the signings, well... that's a big thing to shove under the carpet to hide. Let alone with that hair-do.

Second period, United only gets Mata. Class player, but why spend bazillions on him when the coach already has trouble playing Kagawa, Januzaj, Rooney and Van Persie in one team (let's not mention Nani, Giggs, Valencia, Wellbeck, Hernandez, Young)? I don't think Moyes was ever that big on attacking midfielders, yet he inherited a squad chock full of the kind of adventurous players he used only sparingly in the past and one more was added. I also guess a mid-season change is tough for a creative player who needs quite a lot of time to get comfortable with other player's running patterns, speeds and cuts and since there's no winter break, there's little time to build that up.

Basically, Moyes could be the second coming of Ferguson, but he never got the time Ferguson got in the early days. Moyes needed what, eight years at Everton to steadily work it up? That time he'd never have got at United. I guess he also couldn't make the tactical puzzle 100% fitting even though he did manage the best away record in the league (?).

For 'immediate' plug and play success the Glazers should have picked Mourinho, but that option has gone by. If Ancelotti or Klopp becomes available, that would be good, but I doubt they will. Joachim Löw might want a different challenge after the WC, especially if Germany does really well. That would be a great signing. Roma's Rudi Garcia might work, perhaps: Lille played pretty football under him and he did very well with Roma so far, so he can work in different tactical environments, but he's hardly an established name in England.

Hiddink would have been a good signing to bridge the time of squad renewal, but he's locked down.

Everyone else is a gamble or a short term solution. Juventus' Conte could work, but does he want to, and can he work outside of the Italian tactical constraints? Laudrup? I think the Swansea squad was very happy with him and the football was good. Martinez? He could perhaps do it, but he'd be running so fast up the ladder that he might outrun himself... Wigan-Everton-United with not a single season of Champion's League experience. Rafael Benitez is probably a no-no but he is an international manager.

The problem is that the club structure was already overhauled once and any new manager would have to identify a squad new to him, and at United's level, a 'smaller' name would have to do research on players he'd never be able to get for his own former team(s): I mean, everyone can recognize that Diego Costa is a great player, as is Falcao, but few clubs can afford these guys so the choice which one to pursue for your own team is a very difficult question, double so if you're new to your squad.

If you give him 2-3 years, Van Gaal would be perfect to do an overhaul. He's tactically savvy and he'll work well with youth, of which United still has a lot. He also has the reputation. Downside; he's uncompromising (expect conflicts with established players and the press). He'll then retire and leave it to someone else who likes possession football to take over. Barcelona and Bayern partly built on his foundations, there could be worse credentials.

[amphibian]

I'm getting a lot of praise for calling a Liverpool win back at the New Year. I don't have a particular dog in the race (more of a Barca/Dortmund follower), so it was just for predictive purposes.

Garcia would probably be the best bet for the next coach of Barcelona, not Manchester United. However, I'm truly interested to see what the Barcelona team will look like with a transfer ban - that's the best opportunity for any young talent from their B team to come up - and a not world class center defense squad/goalie (as Valdes is leaving/injured badly).

I really like interesting squads more than winning squads, if that makes any sense. Atletico is a great team and they're winning, but they're not so interesting. Real parks the bus and counter-attacks against good teams. Bayern is interesting in their usage of Lahm, Martinez and the others in different places, but I'm kinda bored with Ribery and Robben cutting in from the flanks.

Give me a squad of not-super athletes and a tactically interesting situation and I'm happy.

[Tapper]

amphibian, on 24 April 2014 - 03:55 AM, said:

I'm getting a lot of praise for calling a Liverpool win back at the New Year. I don't have a particular dog in the race (more of a Barca/Dortmund follower), so it was just for predictive purposes.

Garcia would probably be the best bet for the next coach of Barcelona, not Manchester United. However, I'm truly interested to see what the Barcelona team will look like with a transfer ban - that's the best opportunity for any young talent from their B team to come up - and a not world class center defense squad/goalie (as Valdes is leaving/injured badly).

I really like interesting squads more than winning squads, if that makes any sense. Atletico is a great team and they're winning, but they're not so interesting. Real parks the bus and counter-attacks against good teams. Bayern is interesting in their usage of Lahm, Martinez and the others in different places, but I'm kinda bored with Ribery and Robben cutting in from the flanks.

Give me a squad of not-super athletes and a tactically interesting situation and I'm happy.

The ban is lifted until after the appeal, which won't be finished until the summer 2014 transfer period. That means that Barcelona can (and will) spend. I think they've enlisted Gladbach's Ter Stegen to fill in for Valdez, and they were also interested in a Chelsea player (edit: David Luiz) according to the British press, which is vital for Chelsea to make financial room for a bid on Diego Costa.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 24 April 2014 - 02:06 PM

[Tiste Simeon]

Tapper your analysis was spot on, thanks!

[Sir Bob]

Don't mind me, not like I started the thread or anything.

*kicks can sullenly*

Moyes was never up to the task. I don't understand why he gets so many plaudits from his Everton days.

Yes they did well but this fallacy that he hardly spent any money constantly annoys me.

I could list them all but someone else has beaten me to it http://www.transferl...-transfers.html

I'm not saying that he did not do well but the amount of money he spent that was the minimum required. Not top,TOP class material, no matter how long he is given.

Ten million on bilyaletdinov, eleven on Yakubu fifteen on Fellaini. Yes they made a profit but only because Moyes was stupid enough to buy him again!!


Rant over. Liverpool for the title even if the don't win against Chelsea?

[polishgenius]

Tisteon Simeonus, on 22 April 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

Would you actually be unhappy if Guardiola came to Utd then?

Honestly, yes. Mostly because I just don't like him, but his style of play is all wrong for our squad right now and even if it works, while it can be scintillating, it's also often boring. I way preferred last year's Bayern to this.

Tapper, on 23 April 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

For 'immediate' plug and play success the Glazers should have picked Mourinho, but that option has gone by.

FUCK NO.

Success? Sure. Excitement? Not so much, and not exactly a long-term solution either on past record.



Ideally, I guess, we'd get Van Gaal or Ancellotti in for four years until Klopp's contract runs out, then snap him up.

[amphibian]

Mourinho has shown a strong, strong preference for parking the bus and then engaging in fast counter-attacks against good teams.

He'll get his team to readily cede possession and let the other team exhaust themselves in unsuccessfully breaking through the banks of four.

I don't think that's what Manchester United fans want to see being played out over and over again.

[Tapper]

polishgenius, on 24 April 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Tisteon Simeonus, on 22 April 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

Would you actually be unhappy if Guardiola came to Utd then?

Honestly, yes. Mostly because I just don't like him, but his style of play is all wrong for our squad right now and even if it works, while it can be scintillating, it's also often boring. I way preferred last year's Bayern to this.

Tapper, on 23 April 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

For 'immediate' plug and play success the Glazers should have picked Mourinho, but that option has gone by.

FUCK NO.

Success? Sure. Excitement? Not so much, and not exactly a long-term solution either on past record.



Ideally, I guess, we'd get Van Gaal or Ancellotti in for four years until Klopp's contract runs out, then snap him up.

Well, I certainly agree with you on last year's Bayern being the better team. Tiki-taka has developed from exciting technically perfect football into another way of denying the opponent goal scoring opportunities by denying them the ball consistently.

Worse, the best way to really counter it for teams with a bigger physical presence is to create those two banks of four and restrict space so much that either crosses or physical duels between tiny technician and brawnier centre-back/mid-fielder become the only ways to circumvent those banks. In that sense, Chelsea's victory over Barcelona a couple of years back was a rare display of incredible concentration, preparation and tactical perfection.

About Mourinho: I guess the Glazers ultimately care more about success than entertainment and excitement, so from a business PoV, they made the wrong move.

For the fans, yes, getting Mourinho would have lead to series of god awful games on the bigger stages, but... you can't deny that he manages to squeeze every single drop of quality out of a squad and turn it into success, a.k.a: put it on the bigger stages. The question is if he can do it with entertaining, attacking football, but the stats for Real in 2012/2013 were pretty decent, goal wise, and at Chelsea he plays exciting guys like Oscar, Hazard and Willian a lot, gives them the freedom to run with the ball, too, and the average of goals at home is better than Arsenal, Tottenham and Everton (and away, on par or above the last two).

[Tiste Simeon]

So.

Giggs wins his first game in charge 4-0. Will be interesting to see him against a stronger team. As for Norwich, is this a sign they shouldn't have sacked Hughton?

[polishgenius]

I dunno. For all that we slapped them, they did far better against Liverpool than they would likely have done under Hughton, and this gives them time to plan for a new manager for next season. They were probably not going to get any points from the last four games anyway, so it's just the Fulham game that they can wonder about.

I just feel sorry for Neil Adams, he's been thrown under the bus by the club. Okay, fans probably won't blame him, but if he has any plans of a future career, having the worst record in Premier League history won't look good on his CV. Though at least he can say he'll never be faced with a harder task.

[Tiste Simeon]

Chelsea beat Liverpool and City win comfortably, meaning City, despite being third, are now in the best position to win. As someone whose team are not likely to be in Europe full stop next season, this end of season run in is exciting (even though I hate all top 3 teams!) The bottom is good too though I can't see Cardiff climbing out of it having lost 4-0 to Sunderland now...

[Tiste Simeon]

I may have tickets to see Utd v Sunderland on Saturday! Pretty darn excited I have never seen them live before...