[MTS]

QuickTidal, on 05 May 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

A. Syrio is alive. The allusions in both book and screen (not showing his death in either media) is proof of that.

B. Syrio's fighting style is superior to the Hound or Meryn Trant (or any other armored knight with a meat cleaver)...Syrio most likely escaped and purposely didn't move in to kill because he knew he needed to get away

'The First Sword of Braavos does not run.'

[Traveller]

I really didn't get the impression from the book or tv that Syrio survived.. and I think that last scene with him would be cheapened of he did.

I thought it really showed how water-dancing with a wooden sword against a fully armoured knight in a locked room would only have gone one way. The faceless men use disguise, diversion, illusion.. and then a quiet blade in the right place. Most of their training involves ensuring that they don't, ever, end up unarmed against heavily armoured opponents in a confined space.

So unless Syrio dived out of a window, which to me would be a bit cheap, he died at the hands of a talentless big knight with a big fucking sword, thus providing Arya with a final lesson that has only just been pointed out to her.

[Archeokat]

If GRRM is dismissive of Syrio being alive...could that be because he never existed? If he was a faceless man (I.e Jaqen) then he had a contract. He could have surrendered, been thrown in a black cell with he intention of finishing his contract with a different face.

I also like the slightly more outlandish theory that Meryn Trant is Syrio in a Trant-suit.

[QuickTidal]

Archeokat, on 05 May 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

If GRRM is dismissive of Syrio being alive...could that be because he never existed? If he was a faceless man (I.e Jaqen) then he had a contract. He could have surrendered, been thrown in a black cell with he intention of finishing his contract with a different face.

I also like the slightly more outlandish theory that Meryn Trant is Syrio in a Trant-suit.

I've heard that theory too, the only flaw in it are the things that Trant has done since then.

But yeah, I'm not way off base, there are literally hundreds of posts about theories about him being alive.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 05 May 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

There's no real evidence that Syrio is alive, and GRRM is dismissive of the idea. The whole theory hinges on the idea of him being a Faceless Man, but that's an unsupported leap.

ANY theory about him dead or alive (since, as I've said we saw NOTHING...) is an unsupported leap. Meaning your version is a leap as well.

Also I've heard people say GRRM is dismissive of it...but I've never found anyone who can actually show me proof he said anything of the sort.

polishgenius, on 05 May 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

Even if he didn't die, he's definitely not Jaqen and I doubt we'll ever see him again, in any significant fashion.

He's deifnitely not Jaquen...why? Have you anything to back up your "definitely" PG?

polishgenius, on 05 May 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

As for the water-dancing being superior thing- sure, but in an equal fight. The series has form for showing how armour and a big fucking sword beats speed, with aged and outnumbered Barristan Selmy beating up on the bodyguards of that chap in Dance. Sure, he'd be better than them rag-tag bunch and could indeed win a fight v an average man in armour, but he was also far more disadvantaged.

Nonsense. Though he died in the act, The Viper killed the Mountain. With speed, and agility, and poisoned tipped blade. The point of that scrap is EXACTLY what I'm saying. The damage Oberyn does to Gregor BEFORE the killing blow he nearly cripples the man. But beyond that, the series "form" is a silly way to look at it. Gray worm is slender, corded with tight muscle, and fights with a spear...and yet he can make prety short work of damn near anyone who comes near him.

polishgenius, on 05 May 2014 - 07:48 PM, said:

And Arya isn't learning Water Dancing in Braavos. That's not what the Faceless Men do. Like has been said, she's learning to kill people without getting into a fight at all.

Yet. We can't assume anything about her future. The fact that she has needle at all...Valyrian steel ect., gift from Jon...is a story point that's not just going to be left in a chest in favour of knives and poison...it means she's going to learn both.

[flea]

People who know more about military history than I do should chime in, but why was an armored knight the dominant military figure at that time? Wasn't it the use of the long bow that doomed that figure?

In addition to Oberyn there is the fight between Bronn and the knight in the Vale. Yes, Bronn is a superior fighter, but GRRM and the show give us the impression that it is Bronn's quickness that wins the day.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Quickness, perhaps. But its also his cunning, experience, willingness to fight dirty, etc. That show Bronn's prowess. I think that's kind of one of the major themes of this series, the idea that the right and noble thing to do/be/believe in/etc. isn't always the the thing that's going to keep you from being raped/tortured/mutilated/killed/eaten by frozen zombies.

Look at pretty much all the deaths that have happened and its usually committed by a person who or persons who have taken the low road, so to speak:

Just the last few episodes, Jon Snow + Craster Wife kill Karl. Dario killing the meerenese champion. Bran using Hodor to Kill Locke. Hell, even Bronn's lesson with Jamie when he took his hand off and bitch slapped him with it. All of it is that willingness to use whatever you can to have the advantage over your opponent. Disdaining the forms of martial arts has nothing to do with it, as the use of forms in a fight against someone who doesnt give fuck-all for your formal combat may end up being a weakness, especially if that other guy/girl has experience and sees your weakness, and is able to exploit it.

There is no such thing as an unfair advantage when the other person is trying to end your life, and overconfidence can be detrimental. Pride goeth before the fall, and all that jazz.

[worry]

flea, on 06 May 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

Battlenerds ASSEMBLE!

[Terez]

Some more thoughts, along the lines of what worry said: the scene with Cersei and Oberyn seems darker for me in retrospect. Why do I always want to give Cersei the benefit of the doubt?

I loved the scene with Brienne and Podrick. It was beautifully written.

For the record, I also find it likely that Syrio is alive. Sandor's point with Arya only works because she's weak and relatively untrained. Syrio could have punched through that leather armor and perhaps found a gap too.

[Tapper]

flea, on 06 May 2014 - 12:31 AM, said:

People who know more about military history than I do should chime in, but why was an armored knight the dominant military figure at that time? Wasn't it the use of the long bow that doomed that figure?

Yes and no (tl;dnr: no).
The below is basically John Keegan on Agincourt, which I can recommend highly.

Basically, cavalry is only effective against formations that do not stand their ground: horses will not charge into a solid front of men (example: Napoleon's massed cavalry charged a lot of times at Waterloo without breaking a single square (which is 3-5 man thick)).

The trick is that, as herd animals, horses will follow another horse and if that horse can be led through a gap, the remainder of the formation will follow. A gap is either a gap between two formations/units, or a place where the infantry has been softened up and men don't hold solid ranks. This is one of the reasons why a wedge/diamond formation was long the default formation for organized shock cavalry (like Alexander the Great's); it needs small gaps and can be lead decisively by the troop's leader.

A line formation for cavalry of course can project way more force along a far bigger area, but it needs gaps all over the formation, then: that was only achieved when infantry was an unorganised rabble or when anti-personell field artillery became effective (for example, with canister shot). It is not for nothing that in the century of pike warfare (think prior to the 30 years war) cavalry was mainly pistol shooters in carracole formation, and Gustavus Adolphus' return to heavily armored sword cavalry was an massive reform.

When you look at the longbow/crossbow: basically, an arrow could penetrate heavy armor. It was good against mail (it could punch through it), less so against plate: then the angle of the shot mattered more and curving plate made plate armor highly deflective. It also needs the right amount of force. Against a mass formation, you'd have your archers firing in an arc and the climbing/falling would reduce the penetration in favor of covering an area. Basically, you could murder a lot of badly armoured peasants in a very short amount of time with long bow infantry, but a skilled bowman would maybe get 1 or 2 shots in with enough penetration to actually hurt a knight charging him. A crossbowman would have a better chance due to the nature of the weapon (non-arched, direct fire, more penetration), but he'd have fewer shots due to a long loading time.
A mounted bowman with a recurve/crossbow on a battlefield with enough space for maneuvering could probably really tear up knights as nearly every shot would be at point blank range, but I'd then too aim for the horse.

And that's what the bow was good at: hurting unarmoured horses. And that caused a shitload of panic, would spoil a charge, spook other horses, and give archers more time to shoot more. Add that to the arrival of motivated, well-armed, well-trained (mercenary) infantry that wouldn't run from cavalry but stand against it or dig trenches, and cavalry became a less dominant force.

Quote

In addition to Oberyn there is the fight between Bronn and the knight in the Vale. Yes, Bronn is a superior fighter, but GRRM and the show give us the impression that it is Bronn's quickness that wins the day.

I don't know anything about actual swordfighting apart from a fencing lesson or two, but... GoTs armed combat consists of swings that are made up by a wind-up followed by a release in which the whole body is thrown in to add power. It's a bit like fist fights in early James Bond movies/ John Wayne westerns and it goes against the logic (and Miyamoto Musashi) that maintaining your centre of gravity is essential for optimal speed, blocking power and creating the angles that are hard to parry. It also takes a shitload of space per fighter, hardly ideal for battles.

What little I see of MMA/kick boxing seems to indicate as well (although I am sure Amph will correct me)that you only lash out/lunge when it's a 100% finisher with little to no risk to yourself, unlike GoT fights.
The danger is mostly that pre-swing, GoT swordsmen open themselves up. Each fighter employing that style is basically asking for a quick riposte towards armpit, thigh or neck by a fighter circling away from them, spoiling their angles and taking some of the power out of the hits.

That's not to mention that swords are fairly ineffective against plate armor of the type everyone in GoT is wearing. A mace will dent the plate, restrict movement and rattle the bones of the fighter with each hit that lands... it will probably hurt your wrist if you try to parry it with a sword, too. A warhammer with a sharp, curved spike will punch through plate, as well, and either allows you the use of a shield.

[Traveller]

It does annoy me a bit to see men with swords swinging away at each other, relying on the edge and not the point, and leaving themselves so open to a quick stab.

[Rictus]

That's a sign of too much Dark Souls, Traveller.

But really, Jon's swinging a big fucking bastard-sword in one hand? Come on. That deserter could have knifed him a dozen times, if not for his unfortunate predilection for taunting his enemies in the middle of a fight . . .

[Traveller]

Yes, in a confined space you'd expect the sword to be more of a hindrance. I wish they'd stop trying so hard to hammer home the message that fighting dirty always wins. Ok, sticking to set rules us a bad idea, but they have made that point more than once now.

(And yes, I can't help but apply DS survival tactics - if you see a big swing coming, you get out of the damn way... and get a jab of your own in right after!)

[QuickTidal]

Rictus, on 07 May 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

That's a sign of too much Dark Souls, Traveller.

But really, Jon's swinging a big fucking bastard-sword in one hand? Come on. That deserter could have knifed him a dozen times, if not for his unfortunate predilection for taunting his enemies in the middle of a fight . . .

I didn't think Longclaw WAS a bastard sword. I think ICE is the Westeros equivalent of the bastard sword, I think Longclaw is a significantly smaller blade, isn't it?

[Traveller]

I think it was a bastard sword... the name was considered kind of appropriate, I seem to remember?

Whereas Ice was a Greatsword.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 07 May 2014 - 05:03 PM

[QuickTidal]

Traveller, on 07 May 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

I think it was a bastard sword... the name was considered kind of appropriate, I seem to remember?

Whereas Ice was a Greatsword.

Fair enough. I don't recall the mention of Longclaw being a specific sword, but I'll take your word for it.

[amphibian]

Tapper, on 07 May 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

I don't know anything about actual swordfighting apart from a fencing lesson or two, but... GoTs armed combat consists of swings that are made up by a wind-up followed by a release in which the whole body is thrown in to add power. It's a bit like fist fights in early James Bond movies/ John Wayne westerns and it goes against the logic (and Miyamoto Musashi) that maintaining your centre of gravity is essential for optimal speed, blocking power and creating the angles that are hard to parry. It also takes a shitload of space per fighter, hardly ideal for battles.

What little I see of MMA/kick boxing seems to indicate as well (although I am sure Amph will correct me)that you only lash out/lunge when it's a 100% finisher with little to no risk to yourself, unlike GoT fights.
The danger is mostly that pre-swing, GoT swordsmen open themselves up. Each fighter employing that style is basically asking for a quick riposte towards armpit, thigh or neck by a fighter circling away from them, spoiling their angles and taking some of the power out of the hits.

That's not to mention that swords are fairly ineffective against plate armor of the type everyone in GoT is wearing. A mace will dent the plate, restrict movement and rattle the bones of the fighter with each hit that lands... it will probably hurt your wrist if you try to parry it with a sword, too. A warhammer with a sharp, curved spike will punch through plate, as well, and either allows you the use of a shield.

Some friends of mine wrote this article about longsword fighting that really skips out the fluff and puts what works in. There's video and pictures of old, old manuals that show that sword fighting back then looked very, very different from what is commonly presented in entertainment. http://www.bloodyelb...ongsword-part-i

Traveller has it right when he says that there's a surprising amount of strategy, distance management and much more defensive work than we see onscreen. This is life and death, so people tend to really not go for the "take one to deliver one" tactic or the beyond stupid "sheathe their sword in your body" move a la Wheel of Time. Most of the strikes people seemed to prefer back then and in current sparring are head strikes with pommels or with stabbing the point into the head somewhere. They didn't go for the armpit too much (small, moving target), but they did go after the legs a fair amount. It's really hard to do that in onscreen work because taking even feigned head damage with a sword is very risky and can spoil a career or a life. So they have to go Hollywood and that almost always means shitty sword work and favoring the fancy stuff that doesn't work (Syrio's water dancing, wuxia stuff). Real sword fighting has a lot of bat aside strike and lightning fast stroke to the head that's not so cinematic - although Jon Snow's kill of Karl was kind of what I mean (even if it was from behind).

In MMA, the best fighters set up exchanges in a way that they can slip or block the return punches and kicks. They do this so often and with such precision that they know which counters are coming and can evade them as they're thrown. Head movement and exquisite footwork is essential here and in GoT, people really don't do that because it's better for them to focus on acting, on their lines and so on than to focus on real sword fighting and footwork. They'll do what looks good for the camera (big swinging blows, clinch fighting without any actual clinching or grappling) and leave it there.

An archer friend had his grump up a storm moment when Ygritte was doing archery after the wall climb. The bow wasn't nearly as powerful as they depicted it during the deer kill scene and her technique was awful. He says Hunger Games is pretty good about their archery techniques and that Avatar was moronic for going with the "fancy schmancy" reverse grip technique.

I give major props to Maisie for trying things left handed. You can tell when she switches hands in the creek practicing scene that she's much more comfortable as a righty, but she's not horrible left handed.

[amphibian]

Also, don't get too wrapped up in "bastard sword" or "greatsword" or "longsword". There appears to be no serious distinction between them linguistically until Gygax separated them out for his games.

[worry]

I think of Ice as a prettygoodsword at best. Great for executions, certainly, but otherwise pretty unwieldy.

[Traveller]

amphibian, on 07 May 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Also, don't get too wrapped up in "bastard sword" or "greatsword" or "longsword". There appears to be no serious distinction between them linguistically until Gygax separated them out for his games.

Longswords, Bastard (hand and a half) swords, Broadswords and Greatswords (two handers) have been around a lot longer than D and D.

Pretty sure Longclaw is a hand and a half, would have to look up the quote where Mormont gives it to Jon though.