[Randomander]

Ok so taking all we've learned about Draconus in this book, added on to what we know about him from the last few books in MBotF, It's safe to say he's one of the most if not THE most bad ass mofo in these books right? Lets look at the facts: 1) Dude gets sweet on a girl, what does he do? Gifts her with power that beggars the current powerhouses of their realm. 2) Forges a sword that inspires unrelenting fear and dread to any and all who know of it (true he falls victim to it himself but he escapes) 3) Obliterates entire armies by merely stepping onto the battlefield with his power unrestrained 4) Not only can he veer into a dragon of some sort but its a fucking dragons that emenates pure darkness (*can this be attributed to the blood of tiam, or was it just your run of the mill Azathanai shapeshift? Guess well have to wait for future Kharkanas books...) 4) Kills the SHIT out of kilamandaros and sechul like he's bitch slapping a child 5) One shots enormous jade giants

Spoiler

that nearly killed Osserc when he took one down

Point made? I think so (edit for the haters)

This post has been edited by Randomander: 29 May 2013 - 06:11 AM

[worry]

He's pretty awesome. The big question for me is will we see him commit actual atrocities within this trilogy, living up to his early reputation of being a total horror, or will that stuff be played down for more "human" drama (like being a really strict dad -- that'd be a disappointment to me if left only there).

By the way, that BaB thing isn't a spoiler "of sorts", it's an actual true blue spoiler and should be marked as such IMO. The line between this book/trilogy and ICE's later novels is a grey area I suppose, but in terms of publishing order I think it's safe to call it that way (For instance, BaB was just released in the US about a week ago).

[Kanese S's]

I don't think Draconus is a really strict dad. Well, maybe in Arathan's case, but with the girls of terribleness, he's clearly not nearly strict enough.

[worry]

Yah, but that's what I mean. Cinderella's step mom wasn't mean to her biological daughters, and she didn't go around slaughtering entire civilizations, but she's still the "wicked" stepmother from Cinderella's POV.

[Randomander]

sorrysort, on 27 May 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

By the way, that BaB thing isn't a spoiler "of sorts", it's an actual true blue spoiler and should be marked as such IMO. The line between this book/trilogy and ICE's later novels is a grey area I suppose, but in terms of publishing order I think it's safe to call it that way (For instance, BaB was just released in the US about a week ago).

Yeah i guess that's true. Hence the (possible spoilers for all current publications) in the topic title
As far as Draconus's parenting, i get the feeling that he knew exactly what those little girls were going to get up to in his absence and that somehow with all this craziness in the dragons and Azathanai messing around in the tiste world people arent going to be paying much attention to whats going on behind the gates of house Dracons

[worry]

That's an interesting point...I'm not sure warnings in thread titles (outside of the General Book Topics forum) supersede the rule about using Spoiler warnings/tags, as my memory for precedent isn't so good. I suppose it's an issue for the stronger and wiser to decide.

Do you think Draconus knew the two elder (in the Azathanai maturing process at least) sisters would do away with the third? That's an interesting notion. I do agree that Spite and Envy are going to cause a hellish amount of mischief while everyone else is concerned with the "big" events.

This post has been edited by sorrysort: 28 May 2013 - 07:49 AM

[Kanese S's]

Somehow I doubt mischief is all they'll get up to. Having developed a taste for murder, I think both will likely use the fact that nobody outside Dracons Hold is paying attention to them to really fuck things up in a broader sense.

[Aptorian]

I think you are making out the twins to be far more diabolical then they actually are.

They are just kids. Aristocratic kids with super powers. They have little understanding of consequences, they lack empathy for anybody but themselves and they are not particularly smart... yet.

What they did at that estate was not some kind of evil murder spree for the sake of wallowing in the blood of their victims. They did something bad and didn't want to get punished by dad so they tried to cover up what they did. Things got out of hand but surely daddy will forgive them, right? Or what he doesn't and he gets really mad? Well, they'd better run away and hide. Maybe at some other Noble house where they can wear nice dresses and eat cupcakes all day. But how? ... Well, they could always just drowm the family's daugther and take her place, right? Yeah, that's a great plan.

This post has been edited by Aptorius: 28 May 2013 - 10:07 AM

[Kanese S's]

No, it's precisely because they are terrible children with superpowers, powers they don't really fully understand, that they might fuck things up in a broader sense.

It doesn't have to be with the intentional goal of fucking things up in a broader sense as much as continuing to try to do anything they want (which includes killing people... if you didn't catch that they enjoyed it, then you read a different book than I did, as it definitely seemed that they found it a fun thing to do) while trying to evade any possible consequences. Because they aren't thinking about long-term and far-reaching results of their actions, let loose, they might be a very dangerous chaotic element due to bumbling around using their powers willy-nilly, without a care as to the effects or any remorse at such. Especially as the situation is already both rather fragile and also fairly chaotic, their actions, despite being unrelated to the political/religious power struggle and other large affairs, could quite possibly play a big part in how things go, likely for the worse.

To use a terrible cliche, they are a bull set loose in a china shop.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Draconus is definitely a badass. For the reasons you stated and more. But as far as sheer badassery goes, Hood is my favorite. I want a book of Hood short stories. Face biting could be his go-to move, and there could be a scene at a strip club with him getting a sub-par lapdance and then saying "Now turn it around."

I need to write more fan fiction.

Randomander, on 28 May 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

sorrysort, on 27 May 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

By the way, that BaB thing isn't a spoiler "of sorts", it's an actual true blue spoiler and should be marked as such IMO. The line between this book/trilogy and ICE's later novels is a grey area I suppose, but in terms of publishing order I think it's safe to call it that way (For instance, BaB was just released in the US about a week ago).

Yeah i guess that's true. Hence the (possible spoilers for all current publications) in the topic title

You should still hide it inside spoiler tags, just for those that have not yet read BaB. This is my opinion based on precedent, but I'm sure there's a mod out there (*cough*Abyss*cough*) that would agree with that position.It's only fair to the public at large.

[worry]

Oh I think they are wicked. One of them already did that mind-control thing on Osserc from miles away, just to see him choke a dude, and that had absolutely nothing to do with the stuff at home.

[amphibian]

Draconus does stand alone atop the Malazan universe by the time we've read FoD after the main series.

It's also worth keeping in mind that despite being perhaps the single most powerful force in existence (outside an insane Icarium), Draconus ends up being kind of superfluous in everything truly important. The sword's breaking by Anomander was more important than Draconus's freeing and actions thereafter. Fiddler and Whiskeyjack, despite being far, far less powerful and nothing like an Azanthani, had a much greater impact on what happened in the world of Wu.

Why did Fiddler and Whiskeyjack have such an outsized impact? Because they built a group of people who not only shared their goals of staying alive and doing the right thing, but also thought independently, built sub-groups of their own and were able to convince powerful allies to assist them. They actually changed people instead of killing them or cowing them. Draconus stood alone, accumulated enormous power and nearly destroyed everything. Whiskeyjack and Fiddler accumulated soldiers and others around them and changed the world for the better (although how much better is yet to be seen).

I got the feeling that what makes Draconus such a feared historical figure has yet to come - or has partially occurred under another identity. The dragon slaughtering has yet to occur (people haven't gone soletaken yet) and the sword-feeding is yet to begin.

[The Hust Legion]

In FoD draconus is portrayed as quite weak as olar ethil seems more powerful than him. however in TCG he is portrayed as the ultimate badass one of which to rival anomander rake. however rake inspires respect from mortals to highly rated azathanai like draconus and killy. draconus inspires fear as if something happens if in the timeline of FoD that makes him very very cold. in the malazan world he seems to take over rakes role as the arbiter of justice. he seems like an underdog in FoD , only being a huge figure because of his involvement with his aspected race and his audacity. And in FoD he seems hellbent on fulfilling his promises, this is diff in the malazan world he just seems as he just jumps from one mission to the next. overall i think we will see draconus develop as he as well as the other azathanai dont know what to do with the buckets of power they have . also i just noticed this but krul aspected dragons to warrens did he mirror the way of the azathanai where each race had one aspected to it

draconus to tiste
killy to forkrul
grizzin farl thel akai

one question WTF is draconus' weapon and is he manifestation of darkness in the world. so is he as powerful as MD
and do the jaghut have an azathanai aspected to them. ( if so gothos is the most likely to be the azatahanai)

[The Hust Legion]

in regards to envy and spite

im hoping draconus really beats the shit out of them when he gets home because what they did.........
also if they are azathanai (are they half or full) can they turn into any form they want <br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); ">grizzin farl said that he could take any form he wanted to mother dark <br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); ">so im assuming that enzy and her sis could do<br style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(34, 34, 34); ">and im guessing they wreak even more havoc when they realise this

[Mischiefs' Folly]

sorrysort, on 27 May 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

He's pretty awesome. The big question for me is will we see him commit actual atrocities within this trilogy, living up to his early reputation of being a total horror, or will that stuff be played down for more "human" drama (like being a really strict dad -- that'd be a disappointment to me if left only there).

I think we shall see Draconus truly awakened to his anger when he is pushed aside in favor of Urusander. I don't know if the rest of KG will assault Dracons Hold to cement the new rule, but we know that Draconus army is thoroughly prepared and can hold their own. Also, Sanlath Drukorlat is also a hostage of Dracons Hold. We know from TtH

Spoiler

and Sandlath's flashbacks of when she returns to Kharkanas and tells her story( something truly horrendous, what we don't know) to Anomander, he pratically seeths when he finds out what,someone..., did to her. Draconus possible father to Korlat? We know too from TtH of Korlat not being pure Tiste and her mothers love is only for Orfantal. Either way something terrible happens at Dracons hold.

In any event,I am truly looking forward to the next installment of the Kharkanas Trilogy.

[tiam]

The Hust Legion, on 28 May 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

In FoD draconus is portrayed as quite weak as olar ethil seems more powerful than him. however in TCG he is portrayed as the ultimate badass one of which to rival anomander rake. however rake inspires respect from mortals to highly rated azathanai like draconus and killy. draconus inspires fear as if something happens if in the timeline of FoD that makes him very very cold. in the malazan world he seems to take over rakes role as the arbiter of justice. he seems like an underdog in FoD , only being a huge figure because of his involvement with his aspected race and his audacity. And in FoD he seems hellbent on fulfilling his promises, this is diff in the malazan world he just seems as he just jumps from one mission to the next. overall i think we will see draconus develop as he as well as the other azathanai dont know what to do with the buckets of power they have . also i just noticed this but krul aspected dragons to warrens did he mirror the way of the azathanai where each race had one aspected to it

draconus to tiste
killy to forkrul
grizzin farl thel akai

one question WTF is draconus' weapon and is he manifestation of darkness in the world. so is he as powerful as MD
and do the jaghut have an azathanai aspected to them. ( if so gothos is the most likely to be the azatahanai)

Moderate BandB spoiler

Spoiler

Osserc states that Gothos isnt an azathanai. It does make sense as hes simply the embodiment of his race. He is the epitome of Jaghut logic and humour so is a product of the system rather than its creator.

Its noted by the Scholar on top of the tower that all the races have a n azathanai creator and the Thel Akai have it recorded in their ancient songs.

[The Hust Legion]

your scholar point is interesting so could the old man be jaghut azathanai (cold aspect)
people often wonder about the darkness dragon he veers into, but he is azathanai and so can turn into anything he wants. and also he isnt that powerful physically (`RAKE KILLED HIm) but given the absence of many azathanai i think he is up there with the most powerful sorcerers in the malazan world. the fight between him and rake must have been massive they probs unleashed enough destructive power to rip apart an azath

[Randomander]

The Hust Legion, on 28 May 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

one question WTF is draconus' weapon and is he manifestation of darkness in the world. so is he as powerful as MD

• To quote grizzin farl from the text "Lord Draconus brought to you his gift, his power. He is the first Azathanai to have done this solely for those who dwell in his domain...". From this I take that the power he bestowed on MD was simply the power he already possessed, giving her power equal to that of himself (at the time) perhaps thinking that making her his equal was the only way for them to be together in truth, and was content to suffer the title "consort" for her sake as an explanation to the Tiste people.
• Originally i was just planning on answering that first question, but it got my train of thought going so ill just continue. Now to Grizzin's statement mother dark responds "And my lover will just step aside?", which shows that perhaps MD would not be as open to the prospect of sharing sovereignty as Draconus had originally planned. Uh-oh. Arathan, speaking to his father says "Gifts are rarely appreciated... 'And the one who receives knows only confusion. At first. And then hunger … for more. And in that hunger, there is expectation, and so the gift ceases being a gift, and becomes payment, and to give itself becomes a privilege and to receive it a right. By this all sentiment sours.", which looking back was ample foreshadowing for the rift to come between big D and MD. What it comes down to is Draconus' inability to relate to and therefore anticipate the thoughts and emotions of MD, due to being an infinitely different creature. To him, a grand gesture should be met with grand (favorable) results, all other possibilities be damned - and I think it's pretty clear from future events we've read about in the malazan world that things are not going to go according to plan (i.e. him getting ousted for father light, whenever/whoever that may be). To him, her not wanting to be with him will not only constitute as rejection of his love, but also betrayal on a massive level due to the gift he had just given her, his anger and ignorance blinding him to the reasons why she may have made the choices she did - which in turn leads me to believe he will do something drastic, regrettably so, and will in turn create Dragnipur as a means to remedy whatever it is he does (after all, he is the type for grand gestures). Silchas Ruin to Tulas Shorn, TCG "What was Dragnipur, Tulas, if not a broken man's attempt to save the woman he had lost?"
• To put it simply, I foresee the shattering of the realm and the creation of Dragnipur the result of a god-scale love story that still, through the end of TCG has remained unfinished
• Edit: Also to answer my own question of the darkness dragon, a quote from Rud Elalle to Udinaas, “The boy shrugged. ‘T’iam, Kalse, Silannah, Ampelas, Okaros, Karosis, Sorrit, Atrahal, Eloth, Anthras, Kessobahn, Alkend, Karatallid, Korbas…Olar. Eleint. Draconean. Dragons. The Pure Dragons. The place where the road comes from is closed. By the mixed bloods who gathered long ago. Draconus, K’rul, Anomandaris, Osserc, Silchas Ruin, Scabandari, Sheltatha Lore, Sukul Ankhadu and Menandore". There we have it, Draconus drank from the blood of T'iam (K'rul too apparently, who knew?)

• The Hust Legion, on 28 May 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

  In FoD draconus is portrayed as quite weak as olar ethil seems more powerful than him.
  
  Brief convo excerpt between Draconus and OE: "I could take them all," she said. "Even the woman. And you would not be able to stop me." Draconus responds "When last we crossed paths, Olar Ethil, that might have been true. I invite you to quest deeper."

This post has been edited by Randomander: 30 May 2013 - 10:38 PM

[The Hust Legion]

with the second point i can see draconus just stepping aside he is a sucker when coming to love. however judging from your answer, his presence in the world must be equivalent to MD manifesting herself. also seeing as this is in an FoD thread i think father light is urusander. ( from liosan coloured flag, the forkrul reading) the forkrul and lionsan ARE QUITE SIMILAR THIS MUST BE WHere it comes from

[Randomander]

So today I stumbled upon a definition I thought would be well received in this thread. Suzerainty: Describes a relationship where one Body, entity, country, etc. controls a smaller, while allowing them to maintain control over their affairs. This brings to mind Draconus' title, Suzerain of Night. Now that would seem to imply that Draconus holds power over Night, and delegates certain "regions" (for lack of a better word) to those he sees fit. Now all we know of Night so far is that it encompasses darkness, as he has chosen to bestow that responsibility upon MD. Does this mean that there are other "regions" of night that we haven't been exposed to? And what does this mean about the dynamic of his relationship with MD as far as the power struggle goes? If the title is to be taken seriously, then MD is seemingly just a lord in King Draconus' court. Thoughts?