[nacht]

 Randomander, on 05 August 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

So today I stumbled upon a definition I thought would be well received in this thread. Suzerainty: Describes a relationship where one Body, entity, country, etc. controls a smaller, while allowing them to maintain control over their affairs. This brings to mind Draconus' title, Suzerain of Night. Now that would seem to imply that Draconus holds power over Night, and delegates certain "regions" (for lack of a better word) to those he sees fit. Now all we know of Night so far is that it encompasses darkness, as he has chosen to bestow that responsibility upon MD. Does this mean that there are other "regions" of night that we haven't been exposed to? And what does this mean about the dynamic of his relationship with MD as far as the power struggle goes? If the title is to be taken seriously, then MD is seemingly just a lord in King Draconus' court. Thoughts?

This is a very interesting take.

Some points regarding this.

1. First this means that the aspect has an existence which is separate from the "suzerain", i.e. the aspect and the overlord are not the same. For example, Night would exist with or without Draconus.
2. By the definition you provided, it could also mean that the suzerain does not control everything, i.e. they have voluntarily ceded control over some aspects (while keeping some others)
3. The "Suzerain" would be a power position (with the most powerful ability to control their domain). Their only recourse in a case a lower lord rebels is to use power to subdue them.
4. This might apply to all Azathanai. For example, Mael would be the Suzerain of Water element.
5. A mage who is using a warren is essentially stealing power from the aspect (and this is what K'rul enabled)
6. A priest wins lordship over some part of the aspect by agreement with his/her god. This is why D'rek kills his priest class so as to prevent them from sharing his power.
7. Sacrifices by the worshipers somehow effects this arrangement (binds the god to the worshiper in exchange for more power through influence and probably somehow traps the god)


This would explain Shadowthrone. There was no suzerain of Shadow and by being the greatest mage (and doing something in NoK) he ascended to that position. Once you become god, you have even more power by having access to worshippers.
It would also explain the thrones. Whoever sits on the throne would essentially deem himself to be suzerain and would be recognized as such by the worshipers (similar to how how the Imass would obey orders by somebody sitting on their throne)

[sting01]

 worry, on 27 May 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

He's pretty awesome. The big question for me is will we see him commit actual atrocities within this trilogy, living up to his early reputation of being a total horror, or will that stuff be played down for more "human" drama (like being a really strict dad -- that'd be a disappointment to me if left only there).

By the way, that BaB thing isn't a spoiler "of sorts", it's an actual true blue spoiler and should be marked as such IMO. The line between this book/trilogy and ICE's later novels is a grey area I suppose, but in terms of publishing order I think it's safe to call it that way (For instance, BaB was just released in the US about a week ago).

I do not think Draconus commited atrocities, I believe more he took harsh decisions. In military language there is worlds btw those 2 courses of actions :

The former would be akin to crimes of war, or crimes against humanity. We all know exemples of it, both against our fellow citizens and made by our fellow citizens (I believe both cases happened in every countries or so during the last millenium).

The latter would be a decision that make human die, but for the greater good. Here also, we all know exemples, but as they are less horrific I can dare to name some : Alamo, Camerone,Thermopyles (twice) ... Decisions were made to sacrifice (willingly or not) men because the greater good needed it. Draconus recongnize such decisions as necessary, he understand them; and is not shy to apply or exerce harsh force when needed, but only with the requested level.

The difference btw the old (FOD) and the new one being earlier he was too quick, and without auto critic; time spend into dragnipur showed him he was also subject to error or imprecision (as everyone).

It is how I understand Draconus.

[nacht]

 nacht, on 05 August 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

 Randomander, on 05 August 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

So today I stumbled upon a definition I thought would be well received in this thread. Suzerainty: Describes a relationship where one Body, entity, country, etc. controls a smaller, while allowing them to maintain control over their affairs. This brings to mind Draconus' title, Suzerain of Night. Now that would seem to imply that Draconus holds power over Night, and delegates certain "regions" (for lack of a better word) to those he sees fit. Now all we know of Night so far is that it encompasses darkness, as he has chosen to bestow that responsibility upon MD. Does this mean that there are other "regions" of night that we haven't been exposed to? And what does this mean about the dynamic of his relationship with MD as far as the power struggle goes? If the title is to be taken seriously, then MD is seemingly just a lord in King Draconus' court. Thoughts?

This is a very interesting take.

Some points regarding this.

1. First this means that the aspect has an existence which is separate from the "suzerain", i.e. the aspect and the overlord are not the same. For example, Night would exist with or without Draconus.
2. By the definition you provided, it could also mean that the suzerain does not control everything, i.e. they have voluntarily ceded control over some aspects (while keeping some others)
3. The "Suzerain" would be a power position (with the most powerful ability to control their domain). Their only recourse in a case a lower lord rebels is to use power to subdue them.
4. This might apply to all Azathanai. For example, Mael would be the Suzerain of Water element.
5. A mage who is using a warren is essentially stealing power from the aspect (and this is what K'rul enabled)
6. A priest wins lordship over some part of the aspect by agreement with his/her god. This is why D'rek kills his priest class so as to prevent them from sharing his power.
7. Sacrifices by the worshipers somehow effects this arrangement (binds the god to the worshiper in exchange for more power through influence and probably somehow traps the god)


This would explain Shadowthrone. There was no suzerain of Shadow and by being the greatest mage (and doing something in NoK) he ascended to that position. Once you become god, you have even more power by having access to worshippers.
It would also explain the thrones. Whoever sits on the throne would essentially deem himself to be suzerain and would be recognized as such by the worshipers (similar to how how the Imass would obey orders by somebody sitting on their throne)

Mael is one example of how the relationship between the element, the azathanai/god and the worshippers works.

From RG, this is the situation where the Edur captives from Sepik are sent away by Bugg.

Quote

Bugg pushed himself forward. He drew upon his power, felt it struggle at this unseemly purpose. Damn my worshippers – whoever, wherever you are. I will have my way here! Power, devoid of sympathy, cold as the sea, dark as the depths. I will have my way.

Quote

The sea did not forgive. Its power was hunger and swelling rage. The sea warred with the shore, with the very sky. The sea wept for no-one. Bugg did not care.

So here we have an example of how the "power of the sea" is "amoral" and has its own independent characteristics but is harness by Mael for his own purpose. And the interesting thing is that there is a contention and sharing of that power with the worshipers.

In FOD, there is a lot of discussion on how the river god was tamed and it power was harnessed.

Quote

She met his eyes and this time held them. ‘Now you must contend with what you purport to worship, and give answer to the many things you have done in its name. Is it any wonder your friend quails?’

Quote

The hawk betrays the hare. The swift betrays the fly. God was bent to our will; and God now rages.

Quote

What is gained by not knowing?’

‘Humility, you fool.’

Behind them T’riss spoke up, her voice carrying with unnatural clarity. ‘In ritual you abased yourselves. I saw it in the courtyard, many times. But the gesture was rote – even in your newfound fear, the meaning of that abasement was lost.’

‘Please,’ growled Resh, ‘explain yourself, Azathanai.’ ‘I will. You carve an altar from stone. You paint the image of waves upon the wall and so fashion a symbol of that which you would worship. You give it a thousand names, and imagine a thousand faces. Or a single name, a single face. Then you kneel, or bow, or lie flat upon the ground, making yourselves abject in servitude, and you may call the gesture humble before your god, and see in your posture righteous humility.’

‘This is all accurate enough,’ said Resh. ‘Just so,’ she agreed. ‘And by this means you lose the meaning of the ritual, until the ritual is itself the meaning. These are not gestures of subservience. Not expressions of the surrendering of your will to a greater power. This is not the relationship your god seeks, yet it is the one upon which you insist. The river god is not the source of your worship; or rather, it shouldn’t be. The river god meets your eye and yearns for your comprehension – not of itself as a greater power, but comprehension of the meaning of its existence.’

‘And that meaning is?’ Resh demanded.

‘Recall the gesture of abasement, warlock. You make it in recognition of your own humility. A god’s powers are immeasurable and before them you are nothing. Therefore you would worship your god and surrender your life into its hands. But it doesn’t want your life, and knows not what to do with your longing, helpless soul. In ritual and symbol you have lost yourselves. Could the god make you understand, it would make you understand this simple truth: the only thing worthy of worship is humility itself.’

Caplo snorted and then made to speak, to heap derision upon her assertion – but he did not even need Resh’s gesture of admonishment to bite his tongue. It was true that he had no imagination, but even he could see the pattern of predictable behaviour, in this confusing of ritual and meaning, symbol and truth.

‘Then,’ said Resh in a rasp, ‘what does our god want of us?’

‘Dear child,’ said T’riss, ‘he wants you to be free.’

[NefaraisBredd]

Dtaconus makes reference to the stars and other worlds....meaning he is master of the infinite void of space as well? Or at least several other dimensions? Much like Greek gods, Azathanai were all incredibly.powerful until they claimed an.aspect and/or worshippers, which made them much weaker because they became beholden.to.their.worshippers. Draconus, like the old Greek God (Erebos/Darkness) represents a primal force of nature, raw hoary old power like the Holds. He is not restrained like the other Azathanai and the recurring theme for him (in previous books) is that he doesn't belong in the world anymore-he is wildness and.humans are civilization. (Burn is obviously Gaia)What used to require a sledgehammer now requires a softer, more subtle touch. A great example of that theme is when Fiddler lays the smack.down.on Silchas Ruin (RG) by shooting a cusser into his face- 'fucking dragons....' Mythology in a new form-Erikson is brilliant beyond description!

[Kanese S's]

 worry, on 28 May 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Oh I think they are wicked. One of them already did that mind-control thing on Osserc from miles away, just to see him choke a dude, and that had absolutely nothing to do with the stuff at home.

Exactly. Girls just wanna have fun. In this case, "fun" means doing horrible things without much thought, if any, as to how they affect other people, and wanting to get away with it.

[Siergiej]

Quote

Girls just wanna have fun. In this case, "fun" means doing horrible things without much thought, if any, as to how they affect other people, and wanting to get away with it.

Deep truth about the universe, that is.

[Zenstrive]

I think Draconus is THE God of the whole Malazan cosmos. He then broken himself into parts, one part is the one we call Draconus now, the other parts are the Azathanai and Tiam (later Dragons). He then continously shedding his own selves to form his children, with the help of Olar Ethil and other Azathanai (who are, I think, the perverted version of Angels), thus bred Arathan, Malice, Spite, Envy. He also created The Tiste himself after the other Azathanai created Jheleck, Jaghut (who createad them, Gothos?), Thel Akai, Imass, and Eresal. Did we ever see the actual birth of the legendary Tiste Andii? They might have been born not ouf of womb but from concepts.

The Vitr is Draconus own orignal blood that is a part of himself that we can call Light. Thus T'riss can force light aspect into the Tiste who had doubt with Mother Dark. The current state of the old world (Kharkanas world) and then Wu (shrouded in a kind of "darkness" (wars everywhere, people are screwed, etc etc) are probably because this cosmos is a cosmos of Darkness. The cosmos of Light is in the other side of his self. Thus that's why T'riss stays in this world as Queen of Dream, she is a dream of light coming into the world.

The Crippled God (Kaminsod) may be an element of Draconus Light's aspect: Kaminsod's universe has all gods acting as Shield Anvil (embracing their believers), their believers form beings of ligth, and Draconus could kill one being of light with that sword.

But that's just my theory anyway.

Draconus could well be how Erikson view himself

[Luperci]

I'm interested to see how Draconus' "secret room" plays into this, we know that there is something in there but the room itself is sealed from the inside. We also know that the wicked daughters are scared to go in there because they recognize how powerful their father's magic is. What could be in there?

[D'iver koala bear]

Who is the corpse that draconus makes feren touch when she's pregnant and draconus calls it o queen and say sorry for disturbing you..... Is this an azathanei queen is it ever hinted at that they had a city or civilisation and chose to leave like the jaghut did??? Or is she a thel akai queen it is hinted that the corpse is big but azathanei are big to and can take any form they like so if she died as a thel akai shes actually still an azathanei if she was actually an azathanei in the first place lol

[Kalam&Quick]

 CapedCrusader, on 13 November 2014 - 09:28 PM, said:

I'm interested to see how Draconus' "secret room" plays into this, we know that there is something in there but the room itself is sealed from the inside. We also know that the wicked daughters are scared to go in there because they recognize how powerful their father's magic is. What could be in there?

i am extremely curious as to this as well. though, i have been thinking maybe its the "aunt" dracons, the one that originally adopted him into the family, before his rise to power. It talks about how she just dies one day, but maybe instead of her "dying" he just keeps her locked up in the keep, or has her under some type of magic, like to keep her perpetually confused or blind and silent ya know? i mean its definitely not too far fetched to think that, i mean a child was able to put a grown man into a dream from a pretty far distance (spite/envy putting ivis into a dream) maybe draconus just keeps mama dracon in a life long dream. or it could be a 5th(or 1st, could be a pre-arathan child) but I'm betting money on MaMa dracon being locked up in there,


Edit: what if gothos isn't the only one with a chained up jaghut in his house

This post has been edited by Kalam&Quick: 02 February 2016 - 11:14 PM

[Kruppe'sStainedClothing]

I didnt want to create a whole new thread about this, so ill just ask it here

is Draconus' aspect Love? Or Darkness?

i know he gives mother dark the aspect of darkness, did he create that just for her? whcih is why the aspect of light had to be created in Synatra?

[Nevyn]

 Kruppe, on 25 May 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

I didnt want to create a whole new thread about this, so ill just ask it here

is Draconus' aspect Love? Or Darkness?

i know he gives mother dark the aspect of darkness, did he create that just for her? whcih is why the aspect of light had to be created in Synatra?

The other Azathenai call him Suzerain of Night.

Draw your own conclusions

[Kruppe'sStainedClothing]

 Nevyn, on 25 May 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

 Kruppe, on 25 May 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

I didnt want to create a whole new thread about this, so ill just ask it here

is Draconus' aspect Love? Or Darkness?

i know he gives mother dark the aspect of darkness, did he create that just for her? whcih is why the aspect of light had to be created in Synatra?

The other Azathenai call him Suzerain of Night.

Draw your own conclusions

so he pretty much gifted his aspect to mother dark?

i thought his aspect was love because of that one passage after they meet Olar ethil and they discuss the names of the God of Love's children... i thought that was hinting Spite, Envy, Malice etc.

obviously night made more sense, but he could have some how created the aspect just for her somehow. And if his aspect was dark, whose was light before Synatra came into the picture?

[Felisin Fatter]

I think that passage rather hints that Olar Ethil (or Kilmandaros ) is a God(dess) of Love. Olar Ethil is definitely linked to fertility and life-giving fire, close enough for me.

[Kruppe'sStainedClothing]

 Felisin Fatter, on 28 May 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

I think that passage rather hints that Olar Ethil (or Kilmandaros ) is a God(dess) of Love. Olar Ethil is definitely linked to fertility and life-giving fire, close enough for me.

that definitely makes sense to me.

[Kasig]

 nacht, on 05 August 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

5. A mage who is using a warren is essentially stealing power from the aspect (and this is what K'rul enabled)

I didn't get the feeling that's what K'rul did. I think it's more related to sharing said power, regarding to basically having access to it. The amount of power and shaping of it by each individual is relative to said individuals natural affinity, training and/or maybe just pure genetics, hence the difference between a Talent, a High Mage, a squad mage or just a Jaghut that has access to Omthose Phelack just because.