[Illuyankas]

I've been reading a lot about all this, Tapper, and it's been fascinating, like the ending of Vanishing Point except the driver's wearing a clown suit and thinks he's on a rollercoaster.

I doubt anyone's going to care if they rush a few games out faster or reduce the price of the mandatory sub - and that's mandatory as in the specs released require Xbox Gold, not just for anything online like Netflix or Lovefilm etc - and they're not going to expand the sharing thing for the same reason Sony cut their shared digital games from 5 separate installs to 2.

Some enlightened genius released a third party controller at E3 that is 360-shaped with PS controls, so there's not even that to worry about. But yeah, console loyalty is an illusion for the most part, see 155 million PS2 and 77 million PS3 sales. Or the Wii U so far.

Console gaming is an entirely different beast to PC gaming - practicality, convenience, boot speed, casual multiplayer round a TV etc, also some games are better with controller than mouse/keyboard - and the use of previously owned games is a pretty big deal. Microsoft is trying to jumpstart the switch to digital now, by cutting everyone from Gamestop or Game to tiny local game rental stores out for a fat profit margin. Going simultaneously digital and disc would have been, and is considerably less awful, since that's what Sony's doing and in fact what both had done before. And I've seen a lot of comparisons between Xbone and Steam but there's a fair bit of difference: Steam's competing against free; it was set up to reduce piracy by making the paid option more convenient than worrying about cracks and torrents and nonsense; a lot of people hated it before the constant sales designed to extend a game's profitable lifespan every step of the way down; there's no evidence for and plenty against Microsoft doing similar sales; Steam has an offline mode (that was patched a bit ago to actually work properly in case you haven't tried it for a while). (also Sony's PS+ has fucking discounts on digital games as well as free ones while you're on it, seriously if you have a PS3 and not this you're missing out it's the best gaming deal I've seen in years)

It's a shit multimedia device. It doesn't have a DVR function and you still need a cable box going in, and you'll have the Xbone overlay over the actual cable company's UI, and most functions after require Gold. And it's going to do almost nothing for non-US guys. It's $560 minimum for the ability to say Xbone on fifteen times before it recognises your accent. They're trying to tie every living room function into one device when existing products are cheaper and less prohibitive.

Basically what you're saying here is 'the restrictions don't bother me, why is everyone getting mad?' rather than 'what do these bring to the table rather than taking away?' or 'haha fuck me Microsoft wants you to spend five hundred fucking pounds on voice controls and Blu-Ray I can get for less than a hundred quid now'. It is a flat erosion of consumer rights, that you no longer have the ability to play your games if they cut the servers or go bankrupt or ban you from Xbox Live, not even single player, because you really don't own the own products you bought. Oh, and that Orth dude had an interview where he revealed he was going to be fired anyway, so they don't even have the credit for throwing the guy out for revealing their plans.

Sony won't turn a 180 because they'll be fucked utterly, to the point someone may even buy a Wii U. Xbone cannot compete in the living room because everything it does that isn't already present can be done cheaper by other appliances. PS4 is a cheaper better less restrictive console, I've heard of $99 Roku boxes, there are even Samsung TVs with voice controls. Why the fuck would you buy a box that gets less and less exclusive games a year, cannot be played if your internet connection is unreliable or slow or if your internet goes down or if their servers go down or if you're in a location with no internet like a submarine or on an army base or in a caravan or if you're in one of the ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY FIVE countries that aren't supported by Xbox Live and thus region locked to it, when the nearest competitor can do everything yours can bar the voice commands, is £80/$100 cheaper, doesn't need Xbox Live to play single player or use Netflix/Lovefilm etc (so you pay twice for using your services and adding £40/$60 a year), can play without an internet connection, can play anywhere in the world there's power and a TV, has better hardware uses less RAM on OS for mandatory peripherals doesn't have a camera you cannot remove and plays games that you actually own not rent?

[Lisheo]

Illy is right. The XBox One is ridiculous. I assume it's motivated by the fear that it'll be cracked, like the PS3 business, and somehow that will encourage piracy (honestly, if you're installing Linux on something, you probably don't really want to play much in the way of games).
I loved the original XBox, and the 360 wasn't that bad at all. But under no circumstances will I purchase the XBox One. I was not a fan of where the gaming industry was going a few years; paying for extra maps, levels, items, etc. Bonus content is cool, but it's worth realizing that you're paying money to unlock a feature of a game you already paid for; it's profiteering. And now you can't lend games to friends? Most of the games I purchased back in the days of the N64 and XBox/Gamecube were ones I had rented or borrowed for a while and really enjoyed. I'm not going to pay £50 to buy a game I've never tried, given that it's possible I won't get more than 6 - 8 hours of gameplay out of it.

Like Illy says, it's basically about removing your ownership rights. You no longer own these games; we are licensing them to you for a short time, and should we decide it, we can revoke your access to them. It's a knee-jerk reaction from some management types who are far abstracted from the day-to-day-reality of the industry because they've heard that this digital piracy thing is killing sales. In an ideal world, people would just not buy the damn thing in protest, management would do a u-turn, maybe see if they can disable some of those anti-piracy functions, and we'd all never speak of it again. But this isn't an ideal world, so people will buy it because MUH GAMES, the hype and rhetoric around piracy will continue, and the next generation of console will be even more locked-down. And people will accept it, because they've already given up most of their rights, so what harm could it do, right?
/rant

[Tapper]

Illuyankas, on 19 June 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

I've been reading a lot about all this, Tapper, and it's been fascinating, like the ending of Vanishing Point except the driver's wearing a clown suit and thinks he's on a rollercoaster.

I doubt anyone's going to care if they rush a few games out faster or reduce the price of the mandatory sub - and that's mandatory as in the specs released require Xbox Gold, not just for anything online like Netflix or Lovefilm etc - and they're not going to expand the sharing thing for the same reason Sony cut their shared digital games from 5 separate installs to 2.

Some enlightened genius released a third party controller at E3 that is 360-shaped with PS controls, so there's not even that to worry about. But yeah, console loyalty is an illusion for the most part, see 155 million PS2 and 77 million PS3 sales. Or the Wii U so far.

Console gaming is an entirely different beast to PC gaming - practicality, convenience, boot speed, casual multiplayer round a TV etc, also some games are better with controller than mouse/keyboard - and the use of previously owned games is a pretty big deal. Microsoft is trying to jumpstart the switch to digital now, by cutting everyone from Gamestop or Game to tiny local game rental stores out for a fat profit margin. Going simultaneously digital and disc would have been, and is considerably less awful, since that's what Sony's doing and in fact what both had done before. And I've seen a lot of comparisons between Xbone and Steam but there's a fair bit of difference: Steam's competing against free; it was set up to reduce piracy by making the paid option more convenient than worrying about cracks and torrents and nonsense; a lot of people hated it before the constant sales designed to extend a game's profitable lifespan every step of the way down; there's no evidence for and plenty against Microsoft doing similar sales; Steam has an offline mode (that was patched a bit ago to actually work properly in case you haven't tried it for a while). (also Sony's PS+ has fucking discounts on digital games as well as free ones while you're on it, seriously if you have a PS3 and not this you're missing out it's the best gaming deal I've seen in years)

It's a shit multimedia device. It doesn't have a DVR function and you still need a cable box going in, and you'll have the Xbone overlay over the actual cable company's UI, and most functions after require Gold. And it's going to do almost nothing for non-US guys.

All fair and accurate. I know Silencer and the SAF guys are all on slow-as-fuck killer internet deals with limits, don't know how it is for anyone else but afaik, most of Western Europe has no data limits.

Quote

It's $560 minimum for the ability to say Xbone on fifteen times before it recognises your accent. They're trying to tie every living room function into one device when existing products are cheaper and less prohibitive.

Quote

Basically what you're saying here is 'the restrictions don't bother me, why is everyone getting mad?' rather than 'what do these bring to the table rather than taking away?' or 'haha fuck me Microsoft wants you to spend five hundred fucking pounds on voice controls and Blu-Ray I can get for less than a hundred quid now'. It is a flat erosion of consumer rights, that you no longer have the ability to play your games if they cut the servers or go bankrupt or ban you from Xbox Live, not even single player, because you really don't own the own products you bought. Oh, and that Orth dude had an interview where he revealed he was going to be fired anyway, so they don't even have the credit for throwing the guy out for revealing their plans.

I think what I was trying to say is "to some, this matters less than to others." with some of my circumstances as examples My argument is less that MS isn't shooting itself in the foot with the gamers market, but more "you'll find this under a lot of christmas trees, especially in the US, despite all the negatives it packs for those who identify themselves as (console) gamers." I am not disputing there are no disadvantages but I do think that out of the what, 70 million times the 360 sold, at the least half were purchases by people who don't give much thought to specs, services, game catalogues, et cetera but just wanted to play NBA 2008. The Wii sold a shit-ton of times and did so with a catalogue that inspired whom exactly? Certainly not the part of the gaming community that wants top-end realism/graphics, cut-throat precision in shooters, deep storylines, et cetera. If the Xbox, through Kinect, can add, say, 25% of the Wii owners and sell it at the same time to a lot of those who, years ago, as casual purchasers, bought a console that now gets old and gets no support, it's far from in dire straits, even if the whole of the gaming community thinks it's shit.

Quote

Sony won't turn a 180 because they'll be fucked utterly, to the point someone may even buy a Wii U. Xbone cannot compete in the living room because everything it does that isn't already present can be done cheaper by other appliances. PS4 is a cheaper better less restrictive console, I've heard of $99 Roku boxes, there are even Samsung TVs with voice controls. Why the fuck would you buy a box that gets less and less exclusive games a year, cannot be played if your internet connection is unreliable or slow or if your internet goes down or if their servers go down or if you're in a location with no internet like a submarine or on an army base or in a caravan or if you're in one of the ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY FIVE countries that aren't supported by Xbox Live and thus region locked to it, when the nearest competitor can do everything yours can bar the voice commands, is £80/$100 cheaper, doesn't need Xbox Live to play single player or use Netflix/Lovefilm etc (so you pay twice for using your services and adding £40/$60 a year), can play without an internet connection, can play anywhere in the world there's power and a TV, has better hardware uses less RAM on OS for mandatory peripherals doesn't have a camera you cannot remove and plays games that you actually own not rent?

Because the customers MS is aiming for, don't buy the thing in a game store, but at, I dunno, WallMart, or at an electrical appliances store where a crafty sales person tells you that the PS is a great gaming station, but the XBone has all these multimedia options and contracts with the NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL? MS may shove the gamer headfirst under the truck they carry their money in, but they believe they'll get the sales they want, particularly in the USA.

[Tapper]

Lisheo, on 19 June 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Illy is right. The XBox One is ridiculous. I assume it's motivated by the fear that it'll be cracked, like the PS3 business, and somehow that will encourage piracy (honestly, if you're installing Linux on something, you probably don't really want to play much in the way of games).
I loved the original XBox, and the 360 wasn't that bad at all. But under no circumstances will I purchase the XBox One. I was not a fan of where the gaming industry was going a few years; paying for extra maps, levels, items, etc. Bonus content is cool, but it's worth realizing that you're paying money to unlock a feature of a game you already paid for; it's profiteering. And now you can't lend games to friends? Most of the games I purchased back in the days of the N64 and XBox/Gamecube were ones I had rented or borrowed for a while and really enjoyed. I'm not going to pay £50 to buy a game I've never tried, given that it's possible I won't get more than 6 - 8 hours of gameplay out of it.

Like Illy says, it's basically about removing your ownership rights. You no longer own these games; we are licensing them to you for a short time, and should we decide it, we can revoke your access to them. It's a knee-jerk reaction from some management types who are far abstracted from the day-to-day-reality of the industry because they've heard that this digital piracy thing is killing sales. In an ideal world, people would just not buy the damn thing in protest, management would do a u-turn, maybe see if they can disable some of those anti-piracy functions, and we'd all never speak of it again. But this isn't an ideal world, so people will buy it because MUH GAMES, the hype and rhetoric around piracy will continue, and the next generation of console will be even more locked-down. And people will accept it, because they've already given up most of their rights, so what harm could it do, right?
/rant

And I think I am not diagreeing at all with your last paragraph. The thing that I am saying is: MS may deliver a fucked up message, but it will be sold.
That's all they care about. As for the invasion of privacy: the latest SimCity already did it, didn't it? I am not saying it is OK. But I am saying that it is happening, and that it will be less of a factor in general decision making than the people in this thread may want/hope. Pyramid games are abusive, lotteries lead to loss, stock markets are only profitable for those who know what they're doing. People still fall for them, and have been falling for them for centuries/decades. Why is this going to be different?

[Illuyankas]

Those people are going to take one look at $399 and $499 and grab either the PS4 or the Wii U. There will be a lot of Xbones under Christmas trees, and a lot of returns on the 27th once people who don't want to connect up the thing to the internet - 30% of US 360 owners never did log on, for instance - get their first DRM shutdown on Boxing Day. Assuming their servers don't go under from the load and no-one can play past Day One, which will be the death knell for the system.

I don't think their console does nearly enough different to attract that new crowd over conventional products. Hell, next year the Wii U's getting a glut of first party games, aka the reason for half the Wii's sales, so that'll pick up again and tempt some of the so-called casual crowd. The Xbone's price point is just too high, and frankly their cavalier dismissal of everything east of the Atlantic is bizarre and stupid.

e: It will be sold. It will be sold in much smaller numbers than they hoped for and incur a loss they can't realistically ignore, both in profit and in consumer trust. People will recognise that these policies are reviled by the public and it'll curtail their attempted universal rollout. You're also forgetting the reduction in MS products being bought by their target audience, who overlap gamers quite a bit, which I feel might overshadow any profit they make from the Xbone, if any.

e2: Haha the loss they make on each console and aiming to target non-gamers who won't buy the games so that the publishers won't pay you to license their games means Microsoft are aiming for Xbox Live Gold to make up all the profits, which they've made buying it essential for the thing. Necessary, considering it took Gold to make their Xbox division actually break even. So add another $60 a year on top for access to basic features and with gaming bonuses that'll go unused and unwanted by a lot of your proposed purchase base.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 19 June 2013 - 01:39 PM

[Silencer]

And let's not forget, the PS4 will do 99% of the things the X1 does...without pay-gating it. Yes, that's right, it does Netflix. And the rest. It may not stream regular TV but fuck me, who cares? Outside of the US will it even work? No? Bleargh.

In any case Tapper, you seem to assume that what doesn't affect you now won't eventually affect you later. As you say; it's the principle of the thing. So...is that not enough? Does the long-term vision Microsoft is painting not make you want to say "NO!" as loud and as clearly as possible? :S

[Mentalist]

Here's some more clear-ups from M$oft, answering some questions about family plans+such:

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=6RtSGFryKwo

lots, LOTS of PR talk, some passive-agressive vibes, but there's some interesting tidbits in there as well.

[Tapper]

Silencer, on 19 June 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

And let's not forget, the PS4 will do 99% of the things the X1 does...without pay-gating it. Yes, that's right, it does Netflix. And the rest. It may not stream regular TV but fuck me, who cares? Outside of the US will it even work? No? Bleargh.

In any case Tapper, you seem to assume that what doesn't affect you now won't eventually affect you later. As you say; it's the principle of the thing. So...is that not enough? Does the long-term vision Microsoft is painting not make you want to say "NO!" as loud and as clearly as possible? :S

The principle of giving up privacy/ consumer rights concerns me. But the solution is easy, in this case. Don't buy the XBone, which, as I said in the first post, I lean towards not getting anyway . PRISM and other data-filtering is a whole different issue because they happen in spite of government and search-engines/ mail providers assurances of anonimity and safety.
For the general issue, there's the courts and foundations for privacy, as well as marches, demonstrations, referenda and such, and if I feel suitably threatened, I'll partake in those. With MS, well, I can vote with my feet.

@ Illy: yup regarding edit 2. I don't really see developers jump ship away from MS, though. This is a two-horse race and as a developer, you can bet on both, even the losing horse can still net you a gain if you have enough clout with them. I have no clue how big the licence fees are, mind you.

Anyway, we've gone off track a lot (mostly my fault)
To re-cap: MS made bad moves, also imho. I just think it will not have as heavy an impact on units sold as you guys think, and I guess I think MS will go their own way with this particular product. If they can't/won't due to a lack of consumer confidence, it will be interesting to see what is amended, too.

[Stalker]

Well the newest rumor via Giantbomb is that MS is planning to reverse all the policies that everyone has been angry about. As the site went down here is the quote

Quote

"Sources indicate Microsoft is going to move away much of what's caused the company so much headache. The tug-of-war between Microsoft and Sony just got more interesting. Multiple sources inform me Microsoft will announce what amounts to a complete reversal on its DRM policies for Xbox One today.What does this mean?

No more always online requirement The console no longer has to check in every 24 hours All game discs will work on Xbox One as they do on Xbox 360 Authentication is no longer necessary An Internet connection is only required when initially setting up the console All downloaded games will function the same when online or offline No additional restrictions on trading games or loaning discs Region locks have been dropped It is unclear what caused this huge change in policy right after E3, a week where Microsoft executives spent days explaining, justifying, and talking about its policies to the press. I suspect Microsoft's official announcement will say something to the effect of "we've been closely listening to consumer feedback."

Based on what I'm being told, that's definitely true.

Microsoft has taken an enormous amount of heat regarding DRM policies with its new console. Sony became consumer heroes at E3, announcing PlayStation 4 would not treat used games differently, and the status quo would reign. The company released this video, twisting the knife"

The author of the article confirmed via twitter that he vetted this vigorously and is assured that it is true.


Edit: looks like MS is confirming this to be true on their news page. Link. This is directly from Don Mattrick aka Xbox's PR nightmare.

This post has been edited by Stalker: 19 June 2013 - 09:33 PM

[Khellendros]

Stalker, on 19 June 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Well the newest rumor via Giantbomb is that MS is planning to reverse all the policies that everyone has been angry about. As the site went down here is the quote

Quote

"Sources indicate Microsoft is going to move away much of what's caused the company so much headache. The tug-of-war between Microsoft and Sony just got more interesting. Multiple sources inform me Microsoft will announce what amounts to a complete reversal on its DRM policies for Xbox One today.What does this mean?

No more always online requirement The console no longer has to check in every 24 hours All game discs will work on Xbox One as they do on Xbox 360 Authentication is no longer necessary An Internet connection is only required when initially setting up the console All downloaded games will function the same when online or offline No additional restrictions on trading games or loaning discs Region locks have been dropped It is unclear what caused this huge change in policy right after E3, a week where Microsoft executives spent days explaining, justifying, and talking about its policies to the press. I suspect Microsoft's official announcement will say something to the effect of "we've been closely listening to consumer feedback."

Based on what I'm being told, that's definitely true.

Microsoft has taken an enormous amount of heat regarding DRM policies with its new console. Sony became consumer heroes at E3, announcing PlayStation 4 would not treat used games differently, and the status quo would reign. The company released this video, twisting the knife"

The author of the article confirmed via twitter that he vetted this vigorously and is assured that it is true.


Edit: looks like MS is confirming this to be true on their news page. Link. This is directly from Don Mattrick aka Xbox's PR nightmare.

Quick, someone check that it's not April Fool's Day!

[Illuyankas]

More like Xbox 180 amirite

[Khellendros]

Just read it all myself - astonishing.


Edit: The drawbacks to the Xbone now being, if I have this right, is that they've also reversed plans for sharing and trading digital copies of games.

It's like a, 'well you wanted the status quo, so here it is, fuck you very much.'


Edit: Yep. Family share gone. Playing games without the disc gone. Roaming gone. If you want to play your game at a friend's house, you have to bring the disc along and then install it.

http://www.polygon.c...price-cut-plans

This post has been edited by Khellendros: 19 June 2013 - 10:55 PM

[Mentalist]

Khellendros, on 19 June 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

Stalker, on 19 June 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

Well the newest rumor via Giantbomb is that MS is planning to reverse all the policies that everyone has been angry about. As the site went down here is the quote

Quote

"Sources indicate Microsoft is going to move away much of what's caused the company so much headache. The tug-of-war between Microsoft and Sony just got more interesting. Multiple sources inform me Microsoft will announce what amounts to a complete reversal on its DRM policies for Xbox One today.What does this mean?

No more always online requirement The console no longer has to check in every 24 hours All game discs will work on Xbox One as they do on Xbox 360 Authentication is no longer necessary An Internet connection is only required when initially setting up the console All downloaded games will function the same when online or offline No additional restrictions on trading games or loaning discs Region locks have been dropped It is unclear what caused this huge change in policy right after E3, a week where Microsoft executives spent days explaining, justifying, and talking about its policies to the press. I suspect Microsoft's official announcement will say something to the effect of "we've been closely listening to consumer feedback."

Based on what I'm being told, that's definitely true.

Microsoft has taken an enormous amount of heat regarding DRM policies with its new console. Sony became consumer heroes at E3, announcing PlayStation 4 would not treat used games differently, and the status quo would reign. The company released this video, twisting the knife"

The author of the article confirmed via twitter that he vetted this vigorously and is assured that it is true.


Edit: looks like MS is confirming this to be true on their news page. Link. This is directly from Don Mattrick aka Xbox's PR nightmare.

Quick, someone check that it's not April Fool's Day!

*looks outside to make sure it's not the Apocalypse*

Holy shit, did the consumers just win?

[Slow Ben]

Mentalist said:

1371680803[/url]' post='1064524']

Khellendros said:

1371679945[/url]' post='1064518']

Stalker said:

1371677138[/url]' post='1064497']
Well the newest rumor via Giantbomb is that MS is planning to reverse all the policies that everyone has been angry about. As the site went down here is the quote

Quote

"Sources indicate Microsoft is going to move away much of what's caused the company so much headache. The tug-of-war between Microsoft and Sony just got more interesting. Multiple sources inform me Microsoft will announce what amounts to a complete reversal on its DRM policies for Xbox One today.What does this mean?

No more always online requirement The console no longer has to check in every 24 hours All game discs will work on Xbox One as they do on Xbox 360 Authentication is no longer necessary An Internet connection is only required when initially setting up the console All downloaded games will function the same when online or offline No additional restrictions on trading games or loaning discs Region locks have been dropped It is unclear what caused this huge change in policy right after E3, a week where Microsoft executives spent days explaining, justifying, and talking about its policies to the press. I suspect Microsoft's official announcement will say something to the effect of "we've been closely listening to consumer feedback."

Based on what I'm being told, that's definitely true.

Microsoft has taken an enormous amount of heat regarding DRM policies with its new console. Sony became consumer heroes at E3, announcing PlayStation 4 would not treat used games differently, and the status quo would reign. The company released this video, twisting the knife"

The author of the article confirmed via twitter that he vetted this vigorously and is assured that it is true.


Edit: looks like MS is confirming this to be true on their news page. Link. This is directly from Don Mattrick aka Xbox's PR nightmare.

Quick, someone check that it's not April Fool's Day!

*looks outside to make sure it's not the Apocalypse*

Holy shit, did the consumers just win?

Doubtful. More than likely they're telling us this now what we want to hear trying to cover their asses. I wouldn't be surprised if they say you don't have to connect every 24 hours now, but later there'll be a hundred different things you have to connect for. Still not buyin it. But I could be wrong.

This post has been edited by Slow Ben: 19 June 2013 - 10:58 PM

[Mentalist]

Well, I ain't planning on gettign one neither (I got a nice PC I built 2 years back and upgraded with a new GPU last Xmass), but it's just good news to hear. It's like the market actually worked for the consumer, for once.

[Silencer]

And hopefully, sales still tank.

Why? Because of what they *tried* to do. Let's make a point, and still boycott the fuck out of them.

Also: colour me shocked. Never would have thought M$ would actually go and reverse their decision. Of course, it's a "fuck you" kind of reverse by removing the sharing options and stuff (seriously, they think we're all pirates) but still. Much prefer the status quo to what they were envisioning.

[Illuyankas]

Quote

Microsoft: We've heard your feedback regarding our recent great and awesome announcement where we said we'd be hiring all of your favourite professional wrestlers to perform very real and bodily damaging attack moves to all of your mothers, if you have a good relationship (assuming they were alive [in the case of deceased beloved mothers, The Undertaker would be performing the tombstone onto their tombstone or urn]), and though we believe most people wish to see their adoring mothers hurt or damaged in some great way, we understand a small -nearly insignificant- minority of gamers prefer a more traditional treatment of their maternal parent. In light of this, we've decided to not send mercenaries to your home in order to destroy your moms. Microsoft cares about you, and about your opinions. Please buy our console. Please. Steve Balmer won't stop yelling, he's not even breathing. Please buy the X Box One, coming this november. Please pre order it. Gamestop. Please.

(damn it the url full spot for credit at the final sentence is almost invisible)

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 20 June 2013 - 12:39 AM

[Khellendros]

Has stagnation won over innovation? Are we set for ten more years of the same, just slightly updated, consoles? Was the DRM necessary so that the novel, progressive features - sharing of digital games, the actual resale of digital games, was not abused (and yes, it would have been otherwise)?

Discuss!




And yeah, I am playing devil's advocate It seems apparent to me that MS originally wanted to release a digital-only console - no discs at all. But gradually, because of both consumer backlash and technological constraints, this vision has been altered, modified, further mangled into a confused lump which MS' own execs didn't know what to make of, before now finally being pared down to the barest new step - day 1 digital downloads remain. Of course, this is solely the gaming side. The Xbox One's other media features remain intact - does that again illustrate the conservatism of gamers?

[Silencer]

Khellendros, on 20 June 2013 - 12:48 AM, said:

Has stagnation won over innovation? Are we set for ten more years of the same, just slightly updated, consoles? Was the DRM necessary so that the novel, progressive features - sharing of digital games, the actual resale of digital games, was not abused (and yes, it would have been otherwise)?

Discuss!




And yeah, I am playing devil's advocate It seems apparent to me that MS originally wanted to release a digital-only console - no discs at all. But gradually, because of both consumer backlash and technological constraints, this vision has been altered, modified, further mangled into a confused lump which MS' own execs didn't know what to make of, before now finally being pared down to the barest new step - day 1 digital downloads remain. Of course, this is solely the gaming side. The Xbox One's other media features remain intact - does that again illustrate the conservatism of gamers?

OK, so to break it down, I guess:

What are you willing to sacrifice for "innovation"? (Bearing in mind, the gaming feature set of the X1 is in no way any different to current generation consoles AT ALL, even with the DRM. PS3 already allows you (and has for a long time) to share digital-only games with select people, the PS4 is going to allow you to play games as you download them and so on, so forth. What innovation are you referring to?) Are you really willing to sell you rights as a consumer for...(again, I'm drawing a blank on what the X1's super-innovative new features are? Especially unique ones?) What you're getting are attitudes aimed at empowering the producers to control when, and for how long, you can play something you've purchased. While also submitting yourself to being potentially constantly monitored (seriously, everyone is all ZOMG PRISM! because "we can't trust the government" with that kind of tech...so why Microsoft? Why trust THEM not to abuse the always-on mic?), and checked at regular intervals to make sure you're not a criminal. I mean, seriously. Was DRM on discs that hurt real consumers more than any pirate not enough? Now we have to submit to 24-hour checks to make sure we haven't started stealing games? (or, GASP, lending them to a friend?!??!)

Let's not forget that none of those "preserved" media features are 'new' or 'innovative'. It can play Netflix. Big deal. It can stream live TV. Again, big deal - my TV has been able to do that since it fucking was invented. (Alright, not strictly true, but you get my point).

You are trying to make a good point, but I honestly can't see it. What innovation was there in the X1? Cloud computing? Not like that requires DRM or 24-hour checks...you have to be online to use it! Arguably Gaikai is much more innovative than that. All the X1 was, was a gaming console sacrificing a quarter of its processing power to media functions, voice commands, and apps. There was nothing new there, it was just trying to be more than a simple gaming console - something BOTH the 360 and PS3 have already been doing for years.

Innovation? Digital downloads? Sharing digital games? Digital game resales (again, there you go, treating consumers as criminals by default)...none of this is *new*. None of this is *innovative*. Half of it has been in place on the consoles with no sign of intrusive DRM for much of the current generation. The only major changes this next gen have so far been announced by...Sony. That's right. The people preserving the status quo. Not the status quo of the technology - they are changing that and innovating for sure! But rather the status quo of consumer freedoms, which you are trying to argue (by way of Devil's Advocate) are necessary to be sacrificed for some as-yet-not-existing innovation? That's not stagnation vs innovation. That's corporate greed and paranoia, no if's and's or but's.


By all means, present to me a genuine innovation from the X1 which *required* those sacrifices and we'll talk. But if Sony can quietly progress things that are truly innovative while maintaining my rights and freedoms as a consumer, guess whose method I will prefer?

[Defiance]

Meh. Make Kinect not required, give me a Kinect-free version of your console at $400, and I might actually consider purchasing a Microsoft console this generation. Their policies have still left a really sour taste in my mouth - their PR has been fucking awful lately - but I'm still glad they're changing. A few years down the line I'll probably pick up the console so that I can continue playing Halo.