[Khellendros]

A good analysis (in my opinion) of the MS turnaround, and where they might go from here.

http://www.guardian....microsoft-right


For me, the attention now turns to MS' vaunted media applications - majority of which seem decidedly US-based/focused right now. If support on the Europe-side drops significantly in relation to what's available for US consumers, then who's to say the same won't happen with games (for instance, deals on digital downloads being far poorer).

[Illuyankas]

Some facts about the Xbone!

- Weaker hardware than the PS4
- More expensive than the PS4
- Compulsory Kinect you cannot unplug and will not work properly in a huge range of households
- No bundled headset, expected to use Kinect for voicechat
- New proprietary port for headsets, existing models (some up to three digits and bought to play 360 games with) unusable without potential adapter costing more on top
- No backwards compatiblity at all
- Existing XBLA games not playable on Xbone
- Required day one internet connection to set up, potentially only available to do so in original 21 launch countries, waiting on that press conference to confirm/deny
- 3 gig of RAM used by OS out of 8 compared to 7/8 for PS4
- 500gig hard drive non-replaceable, external hard drives need to be plugged in on install-only console
- No DVR function
- Cable box required for TV
- All online features requiring Gold, forcing the more expensive sub if you want TV but don't own a PC
- Xbox Live more expensive than PSN, inferior bonuses, less sales, no free current gen game like Drive Club per month as per PS+
- Less Xbone games announced than PS4 games
- Less first party developers
- Treats indie devs like shit - this fact is immutable, sorry - with indie self-publish ban and forced $40k patch fee policies continuing from 360
- Microsoft points converted to currency will expire after one year from update
~ Mitt Romney of consoles (47%) (you got me, this one's just opinion)
(this part below fixed due to public outcry and consumers voting with their wallets via pitiful pre-order numbers, no longer relevant)
- Log in check per hour, no response in 24 hours = all games blocked, single or otherwise
- Region lock
- Xbox Live mandatory, all countries not covered by XBL cannot play Xbone full stop
- Bought games installed once to play, can be traded once only ever or taken to licensed retailer for reset
- Games traded to friend require activation fee
- Games allowable to be traded require publisher permission
- Family share feature, up to 10 friends can play one game at a time from shared library, Obdigore can tell me which Microsoft employee he believed was telling the truth about this out of all the info being spewed out
- Policies designed to make products you purchase rented only, not owned, still anti-consumer
- Target audience for Xbone back then = living in one of 21 countries, in urban non-rural area with perfect good internet and no enviromental effects causing net dropouts, in house with sufficient floor space for Kinect to work properly, with enough income to get Xbone and Gold and headset and games and additional hard drives to plug in

~ Microsoft extremely unlikely to keep Xbone servers up past current gen, see Xbox original servers when 360 appeared
~ Family share dropped utterly along with DRM implies lack of faith and thought about it and that it was included to sweeten the deal for the DRM in the first place



Good things about the Xbone!

- Some exclusives were nice - not even just the PC and later PS4 port ones, like Titanfall
- Family share could have been cool, probably not as good as people assumed since 10 people playing 1 game across themselves indefinitely isn't terribly sustainable and is ripe for abuse
- People like the 360 controller, 3rd party PS4-button 360 shape controller still 3rd party
- Kinect 2 will be fun for Kinect fans, requires less floorspace than Kinect 1
- Xbox 180 reversed some of the PR damage done by horrible policies - hell, PS4 DRM lack got a shoutout on Jimmy Fallon of all places
- It's got a Blu-Ray player now!
- OH! As long as one account on it has Gold, all accounts can go online! OK these last two are PS4 ones as well but that's still pretty nice
Add more as you think of them!



Honestly dude, I think you are underestimating the bad press this has gotten Microsoft. It'll still sell, but one of the reasons the 360 did so well is people buying it to play online with their friends and picking it over the PS3 because there were more 360s out there (and the PS3's initial too high price because of the Blu-Ray which paid off since it's the VHS of HD disks now, and the hack which led to PS+ being so sweet in apology, and you're right, cross game chat is coming to PSN too) and if it's more expensive and word of mouth is saying how crappy their policies have been - but mostly if it's more expensive - more people will buy the cheaper competitor. Hiring the same guy who did the PS3 reveal for the Xbone probably didn't help either, haha. Bad PR and a higher price point is exactly why the PS3 went on to be the lead product for the first few years of that generation, after all. Brand loyalty meant everything, of course. OK, go on, lay out all your positives about it. Don't just assume every single non-fan is some frothing internet dude, tell us why the Xbone is the console we should buy over the PS4 (or the Wii U hahaha).

(e: also as a side question would you be happy to pay $59.99 a year for a game software license to keep playing BF5 or something, just curious)

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 21 June 2013 - 04:36 PM

[Aptorian]

Illuyankas, on 21 June 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

- More expensive than the PS4

Lots and lots of drama will happen surrounding these two consoles before they launch in November'ish but I think the one thing that it will all come down to is how loyal are you to your old console and just how tight is your wallet.

The difference between 400 and 500 dollars is HUGE if you're on a budget and then you can factor in the fact that you can't even play Multiplayer on X-box without paying out your ass for it.

[Mentalist]

Aptorius, on 21 June 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

Illuyankas, on 21 June 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

- More expensive than the PS4

Lots and lots of drama will happen surrounding these two consoles before they launch in November'ish but I think the one thing that it will all come down to is how loyal are you to your old console and just how tight is your wallet.

The difference between 400 and 500 dollars is HUGE if you're on a budget and then you can factor in the fact that you can't even play Multiplayer on X-box without paying out your ass for it.

@ E3, post-Sony price reveal, there was a lot of panel speculation. M$oft may subsidize the XBone cost in the US, bundling free Live support for a year or something. Or cut a deal with major ISPs in the 'States. There are ways to deal with the price difference in their "core market".

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Tired of hearing how we lost family sharing. It was a glorified demo service, ou could only share a game from 15 minutes to an hour depending on the game, then you had to pay. Not sad that's gone.

[Khellendros]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 22 June 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Tired of hearing how we lost family sharing. It was a glorified demo service, ou could only share a game from 15 minutes to an hour depending on the game, then you had to pay. Not sad that's gone.

That was supposedly a fake story about it being just demos. For once the MS execs were clear and unanimous - it would have been full games, not demos.

Also, Apt's saying about how you have to pay again on Xbone to get multiplayer - same is true for PS4 />


I feel like I'm defending Xbone unintentionally. I'm not, and it's still PS4 for me, but I do like to try and treat stories evenly.

This post has been edited by Khellendros: 22 June 2013 - 07:24 AM

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I call bullshit. They are going to use the most draconian drm ever seen on a console and pair it with a free giveaway system that would destroy potentially 90% of their profits? Doubt it. It's gone now, they can say it was going to be whatever they want at this point. No way they were going to let 11 people play a game that only one bought.

[Khellendros]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 22 June 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

I call bullshit. They are going to use the most draconian drm ever seen on a console and pair it with a free giveaway system that would destroy potentially 90% of their profits? Doubt it. It's gone now, they can say it was going to be whatever they want at this point. No way they were going to let 11 people play a game that only one bought.

Only two of the ten could play at the same time from the same library.

[Silencer]

Khellendros, on 22 June 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 22 June 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Tired of hearing how we lost family sharing. It was a glorified demo service, ou could only share a game from 15 minutes to an hour depending on the game, then you had to pay. Not sad that's gone.

That was supposedly a fake story about it being just demos. For once the MS execs were clear and unanimous - it would have been full games, not demos.

Also, Apt's saying about how you have to pay again on Xbone to get multiplayer - same is true for PS4 />/>


I feel like I'm defending Xbone unintentionally. I'm not, and it's still PS4 for me, but I do like to try and treat stories evenly.

Actually you don't necessarily have to pay for MP on the PS4. It's only the titles which the service is being hosted by Sony (read: all first party titles, everything else is a maybe) which are definitely behind the PS+ paywall. But that's just a technicality. XD

[Tapper]

I doubt the Drm will be installed in a patch. Instead, expect games to work via always online under cover of "persistent game world", constant updates, drop-in multi-player, and other blahblah. So instead of MS doing it and taking the authentication issue on it, publishers will, naming it innovation.

[Illuyankas]

The pastebin with the 15-60 min demo was confirmed by CBOAT, who is the most accurate of leakers, and also according to the Verge:

Quote

However, the engineer reveals that Family Sharing would only let family members access a "demo mode" of the game for between 15 mins and 45 mins, and in some cases an hour. After that time, the shared game would cease and a user would be forwarded to a marketplace to purchase the full game. It's impossible to verify that these are the words of an Xbox engineer, but sources familiar with Microsoft's Xbox plans have revealed to The Verge that the company was discussing the idea of limiting each Family Sharing session to one hour and that game progress would be saved so you could play through the hourly caps or purchase the full game to continue uninterrupted. The engineer notes that Microsoft was contemplating limiting the number of times Family Sharing could be accessed per game until it was purchased.

And of course there's a MS dev who's said "No, that guy who gets 99% of his leaks correct is totally wrong, sharing would totally have worked how you guys assumed it would! Our publishers would be totally onboard with one game being shared between ten people!"

[Obdigore]

Illuyankas, on 21 June 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Some facts about the Xbone!

- Weaker hardware than the PS4
- More expensive than the PS4
- Compulsory Kinect you cannot unplug and will not work properly in a huge range of households

Whining about more expensive; not realizing that expense is because of the more advanced motion sensing system they are forcing on you? How droll.

Quote

- No bundled headset, expected to use Kinect for voicechat
- New proprietary port for headsets, existing models (some up to three digits and bought to play 360 games with) unusable without potential adapter costing more on top

And both of those are stupid decisions.

Quote

- No backwards compatiblity at all

Just like playstation! oh wait, you will ... sometime... be able to play some of your ps3 games on your ps4! Hooray.

Quote

- Existing XBLA games not playable on Xbone

literally the same fucking thing as the one before it.

Quote

- Required day one internet connection to set up, potentially only available to do so in original 21 launch countries, waiting on that press conference to confirm/deny

Its confirmed, you have to do a day one update.

Quote

- 3 gig of RAM used by OS out of 8 compared to 7/8 for PS4

Yes, and? Do you really know nothing about PC hardware? You have more architectural bottlenecks than ram bottlenecks, at 5GB.

Quote

- 500gig hard drive non-replaceable, external hard drives need to be plugged in on install-only console
- No DVR function
- Cable box required for TV

All of this is non-issue shit that you bring up just to whine.

Quote

- All online features requiring Gold, forcing the more expensive sub if you want TV but don't own a PC

And? If you don't have a PC what are you doing buying a console? Really?

Quote

- Xbox Live more expensive than PSN, inferior bonuses, less sales, no free current gen game like Drive Club per month as per PS+

And it has better service for its players. You do get what you pay for Illy.

Quote

- Less Xbone games announced than PS4 games
- Less first party developers

Except there are more exclusives coming to the xbox one than the PS4... so... you are wrong?

Quote

- Treats indie devs like shit - this fact is immutable, sorry - with indie self-publish ban and forced $40k patch fee policies continuing from 360

And yet the xbox live marketplace is a joy to behold with its huge selection of indy games. You know that Sony came out and said 'we are actually going to work with indy devs' because they have a horrible record of doing it right? They have been (and continue to be) behind Microsoft in the indy content you can get on their system.

Quote

- Microsoft points converted to currency will expire after one year from update

More shit that doesn't matter.

Quote

~ Mitt Romney of consoles (47%) (you got me, this one's just opinion)
(this part below fixed due to public outcry and consumers voting with their wallets via pitiful pre-order numbers, no longer relevant)
- Log in check per hour, no response in 24 hours = all games blocked, single or otherwise
- Region lock
- Xbox Live mandatory, all countries not covered by XBL cannot play Xbone full stop
- Bought games installed once to play, can be traded once only ever or taken to licensed retailer for reset
- Games traded to friend require activation fee
- Games allowable to be traded require publisher permission
- Family share feature, up to 10 friends can play one game at a time from shared library, Obdigore can tell me which Microsoft employee he believed was telling the truth about this out of all the info being spewed out
- Policies designed to make products you purchase rented only, not owned, still anti-consumer
- Target audience for Xbone back then = living in one of 21 countries, in urban non-rural area with perfect good internet and no enviromental effects causing net dropouts, in house with sufficient floor space for Kinect to work properly, with enough income to get Xbone and Gold and headset and games and additional hard drives to plug in

~ Microsoft extremely unlikely to keep Xbone servers up past current gen, see Xbox original servers when 360 appeared
~ Family share dropped utterly along with DRM implies lack of faith and thought about it and that it was included to sweeten the deal for the DRM in the first place



Good things about the Xbone!

- Some exclusives were nice - not even just the PC and later PS4 port ones, like Titanfall
- Family share could have been cool, probably not as good as people assumed since 10 people playing 1 game across themselves indefinitely isn't terribly sustainable and is ripe for abuse
- People like the 360 controller, 3rd party PS4-button 360 shape controller still 3rd party
- Kinect 2 will be fun for Kinect fans, requires less floorspace than Kinect 1
- Xbox 180 reversed some of the PR damage done by horrible policies - hell, PS4 DRM lack got a shoutout on Jimmy Fallon of all places
- It's got a Blu-Ray player now!
- OH! As long as one account on it has Gold, all accounts can go online! OK these last two are PS4 ones as well but that's still pretty nice
Add more as you think of them!

And more stupid trite shit, half of which was wrong, but at least you admitted it doesn't even matter anymore

Quote

Honestly dude, I think you are underestimating the bad press this has gotten Microsoft. It'll still sell, but one of the reasons the 360 did so well is people buying it to play online with their friends and picking it over the PS3 because there were more 360s out there (and the PS3's initial too high price because of the Blu-Ray which paid off since it's the VHS of HD disks now, and the hack which led to PS+ being so sweet in apology, and you're right, cross game chat is coming to PSN too) and if it's more expensive and word of mouth is saying how crappy their policies have been - but mostly if it's more expensive - more people will buy the cheaper competitor. Hiring the same guy who did the PS3 reveal for the Xbone probably didn't help either, haha. Bad PR and a higher price point is exactly why the PS3 went on to be the lead product for the first few years of that generation, after all. Brand loyalty meant everything, of course. OK, go on, lay out all your positives about it. Don't just assume every single non-fan is some frothing internet dude, tell us why the Xbone is the console we should buy over the PS4 (or the Wii U hahaha).

(e: also as a side question would you be happy to pay $59.99 a year for a game software license to keep playing BF5 or something, just curious)

Would I pay 59.99 a year to play BF5 on top of purchasing fees? No. Do I pay 60 a year to spend literally days online on a relatively lag-free network, playing multiplayer games with my friends? Yes. Go talk to p2p mmo players about purchasing and then paying monthly if you want to find people being gouged. WoW or Eve.

Meanwhile you (and RLY) continue to believe everything you hear as rumors, and secondhand at that.

http://www.ign.com/a...ily-share-demos

Quote

Update: Microsoft has confirmed that family sharing was not limited to timed demos. Corporate VP Marc Whitten called the idea "silly" on Twitter.


@EvilFiek No, that would be silly. Don't believe everything you read online!

— Marc Whitten (@notwen) June 21, 2013

Microsoft's Aaron Greenberg supported this, saying straight-up that "there was no time limit."


@lx_KillFace_xl There was no time limit, it was as we described. Team still investing in more digital features over time.

— Aaron Greenberg (@aarongreenberg) June 21, 2013

But hey, you guys want to continue believing the bullshit and rumors floating about just so you can get it up in arms about something and feel like it is a real 'victory' for you and yours, don't let me stop you.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

You are taking my issues with a consumer product a little too personally obdi, and being a bit of a dick about it too.

[Obdigore]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 24 June 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

You are taking my issues with a consumer product a little too personally obdi, and being a bit of a dick about it too.

Don't 'call bullshit' on someone who is just trying to give you actual information instead of the giant rumor-mill that is the intarwebz.

[Tapper]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 24 June 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

You are taking my issues with a consumer product a little too personally obdi, and being a bit of a dick about it too.

Frankly, the 'debate' was non-existent for the past 2 pages to begin with: caps in texts, citing "irony", list making, and those who had issues with Xbone's initial stance now complain that MS perform a 180 towards their wishes. It seems more like a mafia pissing contest than a discussion, tbh /shrug.

[Obdigore]

Tapper, on 24 June 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 24 June 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

You are taking my issues with a consumer product a little too personally obdi, and being a bit of a dick about it too.

Frankly, the 'debate' was non-existent for the past 2 pages to begin with: caps in texts, citing "irony", list making, and those who had issues with Xbone's initial stance now complain that MS perform a 180 towards their wishes. It seems more like a mafia pissing contest than a discussion, tbh /shrug.

You mean you aren't enjoying this idiotic back and forth? For shame tapper, for shame!

[Illuyankas]

In all your whinging and bitching about people you've still barely said a word about why you or anyone would want to buy the console. Why do you want to buy it, Obdigore? I'm sure you wouldn't appear a rabid fanboy about people disliking the Xbone without good reason, here's an olive leaf towards not shitting up the thread as much - you can even continue to be as smugly, sneeringly snide to me as you like - so give us the positives. Which I'm sure you must have more of than 'better online' and 'more exclusives at launch'. You're gonna make me have said more nice things about the Xbone than you otherwise.

Also, and spoilered to spare the casual reader:

Spoiler

Of course that's the reason and good job they're still forcing it on us
Good times we agree on something
I deliberately mentioned as few things the PS4 did on its own as opposed to the Xbone in comparison here in an attempt to unfuck the thread so unless you want to go 'haha you lack the strength of your convictions, some console warrior you ar- *shits self, rolls around in own shit*' in your reply I can continue doing so
Missing a point here
Did that say you needed Xbox Live support in your country specifically yet or are they being unclear on that too
Good thing console software doesn't need to be as open to possible hardware setups as PC software then eh
Kinda funny that the 'One' box needs an extra box to watch TV on and more extra boxes to hold games what with install space and larger game sizes, would be a lot worse without mandatory installs being ditched also you're whinging about whining
People can get perfectly fine net access through smartphones or the like, also hahaha 'what are you doing getting a console without a pc' man really you live in a different world
Unless you want to break out the anecdotes about better service I can reply to with mine I'll just leave this as 'which is lots of adverts I guess'
PS4 have 140 games coming out and 100 in the first year announced but yeah, you're right, Kinect Sports Rivals really makes up the numbers and OH GOD WHO CARES
Still paying $40k a patch, still need a publisher to take a cut, still have a worse treatment of indie devs than Sony now, still not able to play that huge library on the Xbone
I don't know, if I paid real money for points to have them taken away unlike every other company with some kind of points system I'd be pissed but then money doesn't matter does it
One line bullshit answer to direct questions, still no explanations of what I got 'wrong', still no positives added, still just being a giant bitch about a console
Cool, others spend the same for a laggy network, some spend $50 on the same and still others spend $50 on a similarly lag-free network. That's nice.

Seriously, honestly, tell me why you want the console, for yourself. Me? I'd like the PS4 because I like the controller, I like PS+, I like the services it'll provide, I wouldn't have floor space for a Kinect even if it appealed to me, I like the look of some of the exclusives, getting the cross-plats on PS+ would be cheaper with the discounts, I'll be able to play games with my girlfriend (I was undecided before all the news came out but she was straight PS4 all the way from the start, probably getting a PS3 to play with her in the meantime haha), I don't want to pay to watch Lovefilm on top of paying Lovefilm if I let the PS+ sub drop, I can buy a game and a half with the price difference and two for price difference and headset, etc. Why do you want the Xbone?

Also also you leave RLY out of this, he's done nothing to deserve it.

[Khellendros]

Illuyankas, on 24 June 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

In all your whinging and bitching about people you've still barely said a word about why you or anyone would want to buy the console. Why do you want to buy it, Obdigore?

Not addressed to me, I know, but the question is a good one:


If I bought an Xbone, it would be for the same reason that I would buy the PS4 - because it would have some games that I really want to play but can't do so on anything else, and if I know that I'm going to get lengthy use out of the thing. It's really as simple as that. Oh, and the controller is way better

[Obdigore]

Illuyankas, on 24 June 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

In all your whinging and bitching about people you've still barely said a word about why you or anyone would want to buy the console. Why do you want to buy it, Obdigore? I'm sure you wouldn't appear a rabid fanboy about people disliking the Xbone without good reason, here's an olive leaf towards not shitting up the thread as much - you can even continue to be as smugly, sneeringly snide to me as you like - so give us the positives. Which I'm sure you must have more of than 'better online' and 'more exclusives at launch'. You're gonna make me have said more nice things about the Xbone than you otherwise.

Also, and spoilered to spare the casual reader:

Spoiler

Of course that's the reason and good job they're still forcing it on us
Good times we agree on something
I deliberately mentioned as few things the PS4 did on its own as opposed to the Xbone in comparison here in an attempt to unfuck the thread so unless you want to go 'haha you lack the strength of your convictions, some console warrior you ar- *shits self, rolls around in own shit*' in your reply I can continue doing so
Missing a point here
Did that say you needed Xbox Live support in your country specifically yet or are they being unclear on that too
Good thing console software doesn't need to be as open to possible hardware setups as PC software then eh
Kinda funny that the 'One' box needs an extra box to watch TV on and more extra boxes to hold games what with install space and larger game sizes, would be a lot worse without mandatory installs being ditched also you're whinging about whining
People can get perfectly fine net access through smartphones or the like, also hahaha 'what are you doing getting a console without a pc' man really you live in a different world
Unless you want to break out the anecdotes about better service I can reply to with mine I'll just leave this as 'which is lots of adverts I guess'
PS4 have 140 games coming out and 100 in the first year announced but yeah, you're right, Kinect Sports Rivals really makes up the numbers and OH GOD WHO CARES
Still paying $40k a patch, still need a publisher to take a cut, still have a worse treatment of indie devs than Sony now, still not able to play that huge library on the Xbone
I don't know, if I paid real money for points to have them taken away unlike every other company with some kind of points system I'd be pissed but then money doesn't matter does it
One line bullshit answer to direct questions, still no explanations of what I got 'wrong', still no positives added, still just being a giant bitch about a console
Cool, others spend the same for a laggy network, some spend $50 on the same and still others spend $50 on a similarly lag-free network. That's nice.

Seriously, honestly, tell me why you want the console, for yourself. Me? I'd like the PS4 because I like the controller, I like PS+, I like the services it'll provide, I wouldn't have floor space for a Kinect even if it appealed to me, I like the look of some of the exclusives, getting the cross-plats on PS+ would be cheaper with the discounts, I'll be able to play games with my girlfriend (I was undecided before all the news came out but she was straight PS4 all the way from the start, probably getting a PS3 to play with her in the meantime haha), I don't want to pay to watch Lovefilm on top of paying Lovefilm if I let the PS+ sub drop, I can buy a game and a half with the price difference and two for price difference and headset, etc. Why do you want the Xbone?

Also also you leave RLY out of this, he's done nothing to deserve it.

Games. Which is why I buy any console. I haven't decided which one I'm going to get yet. And, just FYI, I have no interest in trying to convince you to buy a specific console, or not buy a different one. I just get frustrated at people spouting incorrect shit, regardless of what it is about. I'm glad that you like PS+ and used games. That makes the PS4 the perfect console for you.

[tiam]

Sorry to disrupt the massive amount of sexual tension between Illy and Obdi but...

Today is my birthday and ive just been given xbox live membership and one of the things people are talking about is these free games you get with it now, similar to the PS+. This seems to be fairly recent and Fable 3 is the first one,which I have already completed, but still its a nice concept. Apparently AC 2 and Halo 3 are next months free releases and you can see that they are releasing there older platinum titles on here which is a good thing. However I just read that these free games they give you will be stopped when the XBONE comes out or atleast theyll stop being free maybe heavily discounted or whatever.

Any ideas if this is true or simply internet lies as I really want to continue with my 360. Free games will extend the life of it for a while and surely with xbox saying it is still part of their plans means the 360 wont be dropped as quick as the old xbox was.