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Can someone explain their fight to me, does Rake basically kill himself?? Or why did traveller feel cheated if thats not what happened??
Also how does hood bring his forces into dragnipur??
Rake/Traveller
#2
Tehol the Only 
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Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:40 PM
Does Rake basically kill himself? Yes.
Traveller feels cheated because Rake killed Hood (with whom he had a long-going grudge).
Hood brings his forces into dragnipur by going there himself, and acting as a sort of beacon. Can't remember much of the explanation, maybe someone else here can help you more.
Traveller feels cheated because Rake killed Hood (with whom he had a long-going grudge).
Hood brings his forces into dragnipur by going there himself, and acting as a sort of beacon. Can't remember much of the explanation, maybe someone else here can help you more.
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#3
Spoilsport Stonny
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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:06 PM
Hood was fully manifested in Daruj. thanks to Gaz's (the guy with no fingers) "sacrifices" and Gaz's wife's ritual (she was Mason of HHDeath) That allowed him to bring the army hood was assembling that you saw in Bonehunters (or was it Reapers Gale?) into Dragnipur to fend off Chaos, which was rapidly approaching because Rake hadn't slain too many lately with Dragnipur. The whole thing was cooked up by ST in the prologue with Hood, and Rake is the guy approaching at the end of that. ST also says later that if Dassem knew it was him who had caused his ship to wreck on the southern coast of Genebackis, Dassem would have probably killed him. Toll the Hounds is fucking amazing.
Wait...Harllo is HOW old?!?!
Wait...Harllo is HOW old?!?!
This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 08 May 2013 - 07:10 PM
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
#4
Tehol the Only
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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:17 PM
Spoilsport Stonny, on 08 May 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:
Wait...Harllo is HOW old?!?!
Are you by any chance tryin to imply the presence of fallacies in the timeline of the series?
because if that's the case then LIAR!! LIAR AND BLASPHEMER!!
This post has been edited by Tehol the Only: 08 May 2013 - 07:19 PM
We are the Vord. Prepare to be assimilated. Furycrafting is futile.
#5
Silk
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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:50 AM
I think there are two schools of theory about the Rake Traveller encounter....
One school says Rake threw it....
Other says Traveller beat him.....
I say ..... its open to each readers own interpretation of the fight......
One school says Rake threw it....
Other says Traveller beat him.....
I say ..... its open to each readers own interpretation of the fight......
#6
Defiance
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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:21 PM
I've never met someone who believe that Dassem beat him fairly. Of course, it wasn't Dassem's intention to cheat - he had the blade Vengeance and Rake went into the fight with the intention of dying. Otherwise the events concluding Toll the Hounds would never have happened...Hood may have held off Chaos, but the Gate to Darkness would still be in the same place.
Sure, there's no way to know 100% for sure unless Erikson directly answers this, but given the sword, Rake's guard position (which wouldn't make sense for such a master swordsman), and Karsa's analysis - given that he's a hell of a fighter himself - I think it's hard to fall on the side that Dassem beat him through skill alone. Not to dismiss Dassem as a skilled fighter, because he's one of the best.
Sure, there's no way to know 100% for sure unless Erikson directly answers this, but given the sword, Rake's guard position (which wouldn't make sense for such a master swordsman), and Karsa's analysis - given that he's a hell of a fighter himself - I think it's hard to fall on the side that Dassem beat him through skill alone. Not to dismiss Dassem as a skilled fighter, because he's one of the best.
uhm, that should be 'stuff.' My stiff is never nihilistic.
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#7
Spoilsport Stonny
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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:56 PM
There is a part right where, before Dassem lays the final blow, Samar Dev, who's POV the fight is told from, describes the final shot as "somehow, somehow it was all wrong."
My feelings on this are that Rake is better than Dassem. Rake was wielding Dragnipur, which we know is an enormous burden for him. Yet he countered slash after slash after slash. The fight "went on, impossibly on. Two forces, neither yielding, neither prepared to draw a single step back."
Rake had to be convincing enough for Dassem to realize he wasn't just throwing the fight or else he may have walked away, and it helped to ensure that Rake's sacrifice was just that. He couldn't have killed himself with the sword, because what he was going to do required sacrificial blood: his own. Even Karsa recognized what Rake had done, and says "Cheated," twice. I think he means Rake cheated. A slight double entendre to further confound us. THen Karsa says Dassem saw it too, thus his post battle scream of anguiish. Dassem is amazing, but Rake has eons of experience and wisdom and there's no substitute for that. Sure, there is the series theme of the modern humans besting the ancients, but Rake is different.
My feelings on this are that Rake is better than Dassem. Rake was wielding Dragnipur, which we know is an enormous burden for him. Yet he countered slash after slash after slash. The fight "went on, impossibly on. Two forces, neither yielding, neither prepared to draw a single step back."
Rake had to be convincing enough for Dassem to realize he wasn't just throwing the fight or else he may have walked away, and it helped to ensure that Rake's sacrifice was just that. He couldn't have killed himself with the sword, because what he was going to do required sacrificial blood: his own. Even Karsa recognized what Rake had done, and says "Cheated," twice. I think he means Rake cheated. A slight double entendre to further confound us. THen Karsa says Dassem saw it too, thus his post battle scream of anguiish. Dassem is amazing, but Rake has eons of experience and wisdom and there's no substitute for that. Sure, there is the series theme of the modern humans besting the ancients, but Rake is different.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
#8
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Posted 09 May 2013 - 01:34 PM
Eh, it's been an looooong argument about what exactly went down, and who is therefore "better".
While my personal opinion on the matter that Rake is the better of the two, that fight is not really decisive in either way. There are too many contrivances and machinations going on there to say much other than that, at the very least, we know Dassem at his best is able to go toe-to-toe with Rake, in such a way as to put Karsa in awe.
The variables however, are many:
Rake wanted to lose. He had to do so by getting his own sword to land the killing blow, however, which is the subject of some contention over whether that is enough to imply he was better (I've always said that if Dassem is really as good as Rake, for Rake to be able to engineer his own demise in the middle of that fight in a specific way he'd have to be better - but that is debatable).
Traveller had Vengeance. A sword which is, admittedly, forged by Anomander, and abandoned by the latter in favour of Dragnipur (likely because of the responsibility he felt towards Dragnipur rather than which one was "better" or "worse", but also because he no longer had a singular will, bring us to....) but we also know that Vengeance, when wielded by an individual of "singular will and purpose" (which Dassem is), is unbeatable. Ergo Traveller could not have "lost" that fight. (I also contend that being able to 'lose' a fight in such a way as to get exactly what you want is so very Anomander, and that being able to do so against a sword which means your opponent cannot lose is essentially to break the laws of the universe; Traveller "won", but Anomander won, by achieving his own goals in his desired way.)
No-one is invulnerable. It's been hammered home by this point in the series that a stray crossbow bolt to the head of an unprepared ascendant will take them down as easily as your average canon fodder. In a fight between what are nominally two of the best swordsmen in the world, there is no "better" and "worse" participant - both of them are subject to twists of fate, the Push and Pull of the Twins (though nobody could have helped Oponn had they fucked up that duel. Nobody.), and who is having a bad day at the time. Again, though, this leans in Anomander's favour - to be confident enough (or, desperate enough?) to go up against Dassem with that kind of risk...truly, an all-or-nothing gambit? Or was he just sufficiently superior at swordsmanship that this was not a concern?
Machnations. There were so many factors dictating why Rake couldn't just cut himself with Dragnipur and achieve the same end result: the slaying of Hood was undoubtedly going to result in a Convergence of great import. The subsequent death of Rake was going to turn it into a rusty pressurecooker of a Convergence like no other, with ascendants flocking in from all sides to try and claim Dragnipur, or take down weakened opponents. Regardless of how it actually went down, having Dassem on the scene was always going to be a deterrent/possible stumbling block (of Doom) for anyone interested in that fight. It's like getting a big enough bouncer at the door to keep out all the small-fry but potentially large-scale-troublemakers. Plus, better to have him where you want, rather than somewhere else and possibly ruining your plans. Incorporating him into the act of Rake dying just follows from that logic.
....and then, there's the fact that it was, in some ways, pure fan service. Taking Rake down with anyone else? Would we have bought it? Probably not. But...Traveller? Sure. Makes for the most epic who'd win of all time, and written in such a (plot-relevant) way as to leave the answer ambiguous.
While my personal opinion on the matter that Rake is the better of the two, that fight is not really decisive in either way. There are too many contrivances and machinations going on there to say much other than that, at the very least, we know Dassem at his best is able to go toe-to-toe with Rake, in such a way as to put Karsa in awe.
The variables however, are many:
Rake wanted to lose. He had to do so by getting his own sword to land the killing blow, however, which is the subject of some contention over whether that is enough to imply he was better (I've always said that if Dassem is really as good as Rake, for Rake to be able to engineer his own demise in the middle of that fight in a specific way he'd have to be better - but that is debatable).
Traveller had Vengeance. A sword which is, admittedly, forged by Anomander, and abandoned by the latter in favour of Dragnipur (likely because of the responsibility he felt towards Dragnipur rather than which one was "better" or "worse", but also because he no longer had a singular will, bring us to....) but we also know that Vengeance, when wielded by an individual of "singular will and purpose" (which Dassem is), is unbeatable. Ergo Traveller could not have "lost" that fight. (I also contend that being able to 'lose' a fight in such a way as to get exactly what you want is so very Anomander, and that being able to do so against a sword which means your opponent cannot lose is essentially to break the laws of the universe; Traveller "won", but Anomander won, by achieving his own goals in his desired way.)
No-one is invulnerable. It's been hammered home by this point in the series that a stray crossbow bolt to the head of an unprepared ascendant will take them down as easily as your average canon fodder. In a fight between what are nominally two of the best swordsmen in the world, there is no "better" and "worse" participant - both of them are subject to twists of fate, the Push and Pull of the Twins (though nobody could have helped Oponn had they fucked up that duel. Nobody.), and who is having a bad day at the time. Again, though, this leans in Anomander's favour - to be confident enough (or, desperate enough?) to go up against Dassem with that kind of risk...truly, an all-or-nothing gambit? Or was he just sufficiently superior at swordsmanship that this was not a concern?
Machnations. There were so many factors dictating why Rake couldn't just cut himself with Dragnipur and achieve the same end result: the slaying of Hood was undoubtedly going to result in a Convergence of great import. The subsequent death of Rake was going to turn it into a rusty pressurecooker of a Convergence like no other, with ascendants flocking in from all sides to try and claim Dragnipur, or take down weakened opponents. Regardless of how it actually went down, having Dassem on the scene was always going to be a deterrent/possible stumbling block (of Doom) for anyone interested in that fight. It's like getting a big enough bouncer at the door to keep out all the small-fry but potentially large-scale-troublemakers. Plus, better to have him where you want, rather than somewhere else and possibly ruining your plans. Incorporating him into the act of Rake dying just follows from that logic.
....and then, there's the fact that it was, in some ways, pure fan service. Taking Rake down with anyone else? Would we have bought it? Probably not. But...Traveller? Sure. Makes for the most epic who'd win of all time, and written in such a (plot-relevant) way as to leave the answer ambiguous.
***
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<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.
#9
Spoilsport Stonny
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Posted 09 May 2013 - 01:44 PM
I think the coolest part was that. it says "Anomander Rake was dead." And then a couple chapters later we see him inside Dragnipur kicking chaos ass.
And when I said "better" I didn't necessarily mean "better" as in "Hey Billy, you think Rake could beat up Dassem?" I just meant better in the terms of he is not being guided by vengence and a primal will. He is machinating and cooking up something far larger than getting even for his dead daughter, which is certainly a noble cause, but he's saving the world and Dassem is PTSD.
And when I said "better" I didn't necessarily mean "better" as in "Hey Billy, you think Rake could beat up Dassem?" I just meant better in the terms of he is not being guided by vengence and a primal will. He is machinating and cooking up something far larger than getting even for his dead daughter, which is certainly a noble cause, but he's saving the world and Dassem is PTSD.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
#10
theocean
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Posted 09 May 2013 - 05:41 PM
so where had traveller been before all this started? I mean hes been "dead" for a long time i would think prior to all this, do we know where he was travelling about at??
Should i know why he and hood dont like eachother?
Should i get the Harllo jokes??
Should i know why he and hood dont like eachother?
Should i get the Harllo jokes??
#11
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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:40 PM
theocean, on 09 May 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:
so where had traveller been before all this started? I mean hes been "dead" for a long time i would think prior to all this, do we know where he was travelling about at??
Should i know why he and hood dont like eachother?
Should i know why he and hood dont like eachother?
Have you read NIGHT OF KNIVES, MEMORIES OF ICE, HOUSE OF CHAINS and RETURN OF THE CRIMSON GUARD?
Because if you haven't, and/or you've read TOLL and not figured it out, and really want to know....then this is one fucktastical SPOILER for past books...
Spoiler
Quote
Should i get the Harllo jokes??
Stonny was raped by a seerdomin (not the Seerdomin in TtH) back in MoI during the seige of Capustan.
At the beginning of TOLL Gruntle says it's been a year since Capustan.
A few pages later we meet Harllo, Stonny's five year old kid.
A few pages later we discover Harllo was the result of the rape. By the seerdomin. One year before.
...but clearly it's all the result of warren manipulations, nascent draconic DNA, time travel and/or ascendent intervention and anyways the timeline is not important the timeline is not important the timeline is not ahhh fuck...
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
#12
theocean
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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:22 AM
Yes I know traveller is daseem but wheres he been wandering since his supposive death in seven cities? I've only read the actual malazan books so far.... should I put down the next malazan and pick up some of the other ones or am I too late in where I am at in the series to bother? Need some advice
#15
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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:42 AM
In a way telling you anything about Dust of Dreams would be a spoiler so I will hide my reply, but I am still making it as without detail as possible:
Spoiler
This post has been edited by sorrysort: 10 May 2013 - 02:43 AM
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
#17
Defiance
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Posted 10 May 2013 - 04:01 AM
theocean, on 10 May 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:
Yes I know traveller is daseem but wheres he been wandering since his supposive death in seven cities? I've only read the actual malazan books so far.... should I put down the next malazan and pick up some of the other ones or am I too late in where I am at in the series to bother? Need some advice
Well, not including ICE's books, he took on the guise of Traveller and teamed up with some other Malazans - including Nok's wife, Hawl. My memory of this in House of Chains is a bit shaky, but Hawl was Old Guard so I believe she was staying low to avoid Laseen. They ended up stranded on Drift Avalii and were attacked by the Tiste Edur, although Traveller survived. He then took up Vengeance (Andarist's sword) and defended the Throne of Shadow for awhile, before abandoning it sometime prior to the Edur's arrival in The Bonehunters. His journey after that is something you'll read about in Return of the Crimson Guard.
uhm, that should be 'stuff.' My stiff is never nihilistic.
~Steven Erikson
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~Steven Erikson
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#18
theocean
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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:17 PM
Defiance, on 10 May 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:
theocean, on 10 May 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:
Yes I know traveller is daseem but wheres he been wandering since his supposive death in seven cities? I've only read the actual malazan books so far.... should I put down the next malazan and pick up some of the other ones or am I too late in where I am at in the series to bother? Need some advice
Well, not including ICE's books, he took on the guise of Traveller and teamed up with some other Malazans - including Nok's wife, Hawl. My memory of this in House of Chains is a bit shaky, but Hawl was Old Guard so I believe she was staying low to avoid Laseen. They ended up stranded on Drift Avalii and were attacked by the Tiste Edur, although Traveller survived. He then took up Vengeance (Andarist's sword) and defended the Throne of Shadow for awhile, before abandoning it sometime prior to the Edur's arrival in The Bonehunters. His journey after that is something you'll read about in Return of the Crimson Guard.
I guess the timeline of it all is just throwing me off and im looking to much into time.... im looking for a large area of time between his "death" in Y'gatan and when we first meet him in Drift Avali.
is it a huge deal if i finish reading dust of dreams first in your opinion??
#19
Spoilsport Stonny
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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:09 PM
There are no tales of Dassem's adventures post-Y'gatan and pre-Drift Avali. We know that somehow he was involved in the recent chaining of the Crippled God, but that's only discussed mildly in passing and when Heboric and co. find Dassem's daughter's body, which itself is quite cryptic.
I also don't really think that reading DoD beofre the ICE books would ruin too much, but there are some BIG events that happen in NoK and RotCG that may seem callously glossed over once you come upon their mention, but only because you didn't read about them happening in ICE's books. The recommended reading order is recommended for this very reason. You could watch Serenity before watching any episode of Firefly, and thoroughly enjoy it as the cool sci-fi western action kung-fu morality tale that it is. But you're going to feel like you missed something. However that's not entirely unusual for Malaz.
I probably just made things more coonfusing for you. Essentially the joy of these books is fully experienced upon the reread, once you've finished them all. Yes, there are some major timeline inconsistencies that could throw you off a bit, but there are also plot threads that are hinted at in GotM that you would not understand until you've read Forge of Darkness. They are so not understandable in fact, that you don't even notice them.
Amazing huh?
I also don't really think that reading DoD beofre the ICE books would ruin too much, but there are some BIG events that happen in NoK and RotCG that may seem callously glossed over once you come upon their mention, but only because you didn't read about them happening in ICE's books. The recommended reading order is recommended for this very reason. You could watch Serenity before watching any episode of Firefly, and thoroughly enjoy it as the cool sci-fi western action kung-fu morality tale that it is. But you're going to feel like you missed something. However that's not entirely unusual for Malaz.
I probably just made things more coonfusing for you. Essentially the joy of these books is fully experienced upon the reread, once you've finished them all. Yes, there are some major timeline inconsistencies that could throw you off a bit, but there are also plot threads that are hinted at in GotM that you would not understand until you've read Forge of Darkness. They are so not understandable in fact, that you don't even notice them.
Amazing huh?
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
