[Spoilsport Stonny]

There's this interesting part before the Dassem/Rake showdown (in fact, whence we next see Traveller he is walking uphill towards an "angled gate arching over the broad street") where Cotillion meets with Dassem, and Dassem lets out a big emo scream. Do you think that Cots told Dassem that Hood has just been Dragnipured and the only way to get his revenge is to get into Dragnipur?

Quote

‘He does not want it,’ Karsa said. ‘Whatever he asks, Traveller does not want it.’

[Magic]

Spoilsport and all - Yes, It is pretty clear Cotillion tells him Hood is dead but probably also tells him that he has to fight Rake and kill him - even that Rake wanted this. Dassem at first seemed to be refusing something, unable to meet Cotillion's eye's. Cotillion later is talking with Shadowthrone:

" 'I wasn't sure he'd, well, accept. Right up until the moment he...' Cotillion winced and looked up the street as if straining to see some lone, wandering, lost figure dragging a sword in one hand. But no, he wouldn't be coming back. 'You know, I did offer to explain. It might have eased his conscience. But he wasn't interested.' " - Cotillion to Shadowthrone in Chapter 23, loc 18933 in the Paperwhite Kindle.

The whole "accept" thing indicates and signing on to do something more than just raging, revenge killing. I thought the whole thing between Rake and Dassen was like a dance that was pre-arranged via Cotillion and that both knew the outcome they needed and being the swordsmen they were, could accomplish it. Rake would need someone of Dassem's skill to pull it off. He would also want someone respected, but not another Tiste Andii who would suffer forever for killing him.

In other words, it was a much longer conversation than "dude, Hood's dead." It included something Dassem didn't want to do and that broke his heart.

And, yes, both Karsa and Samar saw that something was wrong with the way it went down and said so. Dassem certainly would have seen that, too, during the fight. If he didn't know what he had to do, he would have stopped.

Just my 2 cents. Further, i've never fought with swords, with anything in fact, so not sure what someone can do in a fight. I bought a sword once, though. Does that count?

[the broken]

I don't think Cots told Dassem Hood was dead. I assumed he said something like 'You want Hood, you have to kill Rake', someone Traveller doesn't want to have to kill, especially after killing so many other people over the course of his quest. There's also the possibility Dassem realises Rake is actually capable of stopping him.

[theocean]

i dont know if daseem wouldve done what he did if he knew hood was dead, but then i dont understand his distraught after wards. If he thought he needed to defeat Rake to get to hood he should be OK with killing him.

[blackzoid]

Silencer, on 11 May 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

I think we're all missing something crucial here.

Spoiler

That wasn't Hood's body. His "real" body was left on the Throne of Ice, was it not? The manifestation in Darujhistan is just want he's been using to get around in as Hood. Therefore, it is highly likely that the body Rake decapitated (having been maintained purely through Hood's power) would have disappeared/rapidly dessicated and likely turned to dust regardless of Dragnipur.

Spoiler

But Erikson quite clearly states that this is not some sort of spirtual mainifestation of Hood. That it is him "in the flesh" so to speak. He really underlines that in the passage after the guard sees him. Ya, that means Hood contravenes the conservation of matter basically, but essentially he did have 2 bodies for a brief period in TtH. Unless we are led to assume that Hood should have shown up on his Ice Throne body and then gated to Darujistan but I don't think so. Erikson was just way too underlining for me in his description to put it off as some sort of temporary body thing.

Quote

That aside - just because Hood's body was lying there somewhat headless (assuming it was), doesn't mean that Hood was dead. If Traveller could still feel Hood's presence, then Hood wasn't, as far as he was concerned, dead. And he wasn't - let's be clear, Dragnipur =/= death. It's a fate potentially worse than death, but it is not equivalent to dying and therefore probably wouldn't satisfy Traveller. It has the same potential as deliberately entombing oneself in an Azath house - you could eventually get out.

I don't know, Erikson in his omniscent narrator thing in TtH, states the "dead god" several times in relation to Hood. And I'm also not at all liking the idea that Dragnipur is not as bad as "real" death. It should if anything be worse than an Azath becasue the entity dies to get its soul entombed, unlike an Azath which is the physical body alive and entombed. In Dragnipur its just that its soul does not go through Hood's gates. Would Traveller's "Hood-sense" be satisfied with Hood going through his own death-gate? Maybe?

Quote

So there are a couple of ways that we can get around the problem. Assuming the body was still there, it would have been nice to have a bit more solid explanation/reaction from Traveller, but it can be handwaved. More likely, the body was no longer there (which could have done with a mention, granted) and thus we have every reason to believe that Traveller genuinely thought Rake was keeping him from his vengeance.

That's my take on it, anyway. But the scene as written does come of as somewhat contrived. XD

Ya I guess I am willing to go with the "body faded somehow" and Traveller honestly though Rake was just in his way aspect. Its the one that is least problamatic. But I could have used a note of that in the book. Now, actually there is a passage before Traveller meets Cotillion for their unheard conversation where Traveller sees a Hound eating a headless corpse, but given the complete and utter non-reaction by Traveller to that, I'm going with that not being Hood's body.

Magic, on 13 May 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

Spoilsport and all - Yes, It is pretty clear Cotillion tells him Hood is dead but probably also tells him that he has to fight Rake and kill him - even that Rake wanted this. Dassem at first seemed to be refusing something, unable to meet Cotillion's eye's. Cotillion later is talking with Shadowthrone:

" 'I wasn't sure he'd, well, accept. Right up until the moment he...' Cotillion winced and looked up the street as if straining to see some lone, wandering, lost figure dragging a sword in one hand. But no, he wouldn't be coming back. 'You know, I did offer to explain. It might have eased his conscience. But he wasn't interested.' " - Cotillion to Shadowthrone in Chapter 23, loc 18933 in the Paperwhite Kindle.

The whole "accept" thing indicates and signing on to do something more than just raging, revenge killing. I thought the whole thing between Rake and Dassen was like a dance that was pre-arranged via Cotillion and that both knew the outcome they needed and being the swordsmen they were, could accomplish it. Rake would need someone of Dassem's skill to pull it off. He would also want someone respected, but not another Tiste Andii who would suffer forever for killing him.

In other words, it was a much longer conversation than "dude, Hood's dead." It included something Dassem didn't want to do and that broke his heart.

And, yes, both Karsa and Samar saw that something was wrong with the way it went down and said so. Dassem certainly would have seen that, too, during the fight. If he didn't know what he had to do, he would have stopped.

Just my 2 cents. Further, i've never fought with swords, with anything in fact, so not sure what someone can do in a fight. I bought a sword once, though. Does that count?

Whoh, hang on. If we are saying that in the unheard conversation that Cotillion says to Dassem that Hoods dead and that he has to fight Rake for whatever reason....so why does he say to Rake later that "Hoods close" and then Rake counters with "If you so want Hood, came and get him"? Are both combatants playing a game in which they both know Hood is actually dead and there is no valid point to the fight (from Dassem's point of view anyway). Is Dassem just playacting from that Cotillion conversation onwards? No, I personally think the conversation with Cotillion works better that basically "Rake is standing in your way Dassem and you are going to have to kill him to get to Hood"

[Abyss]

theocean, on 10 May 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

Yes I know traveller is daseem but wheres he been wandering since his supposive death in seven cities?...

Oh ok, i misunderstood your Q, but others have answered in detail, so all i can really add is we don't know exactly what Das was up to between departing 7C in NoK and when we see him with the Malazans on Drift Avalii in HoC.

Just a pet theory, that he was looking for a way to get to Hood, who was making himself scarce any time Das was in the neighborhood. It's also entirely possible, even likely, that he was drawn into various other events and plots before we see him in HoC.

Spoilsport Stonny, on 10 May 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

There are no tales of Dassem's adventures post-Y'gatan and pre-Drift Avali. We know that somehow he was involved in the recent chaining of the Crippled God, but that's only discussed mildly in passing and when Heboric and co. find Dassem's daughter's body, which itself is quite cryptic.

I'm pretty sure that Chaining took place BEFORE Yghatan, since by events in NoK Das and Hood have already broken.

blackzoid, on 10 May 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Ya Spoilsport, I get that Traveller was probably not the best mentally, but I don't think he could miss the dead body of his sworn enemy lying right in front of him when he walks up to Rake and than not wonder why Rake mentions that Hood is close and he is somehow blocking Traveller from getting to Hood. ...

Defiance, on 10 May 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

I don't think Hood's body was right there. We have evidence that bodies disappear shortly after being Dragnipur'd - look at Gardens of the Moon for a prime example. I'm pretty sure the bodies of the two Hounds are gone after Rake slices them. I assume that, shortly after being decapitated, the same thing happened to Hood's corpse.

Dassem could still sense Hood's presence due to the fact that Hood had fully manifested himself in Darujhistan.

...

All possible and true, but also bear in mind that by this point in the story, Dragnipur is 'leaking' - we know this because Ditch was able to access his warren when Draconus throws him up on the wagon.

blackzoid, on 10 May 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Even if Hood's soul is close....Hood is dead. Job done as far as Traveller should be concerned, even if somebody else did it and not him.
...

That's exactly the problem. He was, he thought, SO CLOSE, and then someone else cheats him of the vengeance.

Defiance, on 10 May 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

...I also think Dassem meant Hood was "close" as in "right the fuck there in your sword or at the most around the goddamned corner."

That too for the same reasons.

Silencer, on 11 May 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

... the scene as written does come of as somewhat contrived. XD

I don't think so (big surprise).

As far as Das is concerned, Hood, the god who he pledged loyalty to, who betrayed him and murdered his daughter, who he's been chasing for years, is right in front of him, finally, FINALLY... and his entiure aspect of sorrow is practically prolelling him towards revenge... heck, the entire Cult of Dessembrae is standing right there praying him on... and he walks into a city so rife with 'Death' that it's coming out of the walls... basicaly there's massive magic mojo hammering Dassem by this point, all kinds of crazy powerful prayer and history and ritual and his own frikkin god-aspect pushing him on... and then Rake doesn't so much kill Hood as take him away, then dangle the sword in front of Das and say 'here he is... come and get him'.

It's the climax of years of struggle and piles of magic... the revenge equivalent of blue balls on an epic scale... blue venegeance, if you will... no kidding Dassem loses his shit and attacks. I'm amazed he didn't detonate.

the broken, on 13 May 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

I don't think Cots told Dassem Hood was dead. I assumed he said something like 'You want Hood, you have to kill Rake', someone Traveller doesn't want to have to kill, especially after killing so many other people over the course of his quest. There's also the possibility Dassem realises Rake is actually capable of stopping him.

I figured it was a variation on 'if someone is taken by Dragnipur, breaking the sword is the only way to get to them'.

theocean, on 13 May 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

i dont know if daseem wouldve done what he did if he knew hood was dead, but then i dont understand his distraught after wards. If he thought he needed to defeat Rake to get to hood he should be OK with killing him.

He realized he had been manipulated, AND killed someone he respected. That's a really empty end result to something that's more or less defined his life for the last decade or two.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Abyss, on 13 May 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

theocean, on 10 May 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

Yes I know traveller is daseem but wheres he been wandering since his supposive death in seven cities?...

Oh ok, i misunderstood your Q, but others have answered in detail, so all i can really add is we don't know exactly what Das was up to between departing 7C in NoK and when we see him with the Malazans on Drift Avalii in HoC.

Just a pet theory, that he was looking for a way to get to Hood, who was making himself scarce any time Das was in the neighborhood. It's also entirely possible, even likely, that he was drawn into various other events and plots before we see him in HoC.

Spoilsport Stonny, on 10 May 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

There are no tales of Dassem's adventures post-Y'gatan and pre-Drift Avali. We know that somehow he was involved in the recent chaining of the Crippled God, but that's only discussed mildly in passing and when Heboric and co. find Dassem's daughter's body, which itself is quite cryptic.

I'm pretty sure that Chaining took place BEFORE Yghatan, since by events in NoK Das and Hood have already broken.

Yes, that makes perfect sense.

Abyss, on 13 May 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 10 May 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Ya Spoilsport, I get that Traveller was probably not the best mentally, but I don't think he could miss the dead body of his sworn enemy lying right in front of him when he walks up to Rake and than not wonder why Rake mentions that Hood is close and he is somehow blocking Traveller from getting to Hood. ...

Defiance, on 10 May 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

I don't think Hood's body was right there. We have evidence that bodies disappear shortly after being Dragnipur'd - look at Gardens of the Moon for a prime example. I'm pretty sure the bodies of the two Hounds are gone after Rake slices them. I assume that, shortly after being decapitated, the same thing happened to Hood's corpse.

Dassem could still sense Hood's presence due to the fact that Hood had fully manifested himself in Darujhistan.

...

All possible and true, but also bear in mind that by this point in the story, Dragnipur is 'leaking' - we know this because Ditch was able to access his warren when Draconus throws him up on the wagon.

After Rake Drag's Hood, and Rake falls on his knees to mirror Hood's headless corpse, there is mention of the chains like smoke emanating from the sword. Also, Chaos is nearing the wagon in the sword and eating at the warren that is Dragnipur, so this also makes sense.

Abyss, on 13 May 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Silencer, on 11 May 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

... the scene as written does come of as somewhat contrived. XD

I don't think so (big surprise).

As far as Das is concerned, Hood, the god who he pledged loyalty to, who betrayed him and murdered his daughter, who he's been chasing for years, is right in front of him, finally, FINALLY... and his entiure aspect of sorrow is practically prolelling him towards revenge... heck, the entire Cult of Dessembrae is standing right there praying him on... and he walks into a city so rife with 'Death' that it's coming out of the walls... basicaly there's massive magic mojo hammering Dassem by this point, all kinds of crazy powerful prayer and history and ritual and his own frikkin god-aspect pushing him on... and then Rake doesn't so much kill Hood as take him away, then dangle the sword in front of Das and say 'here he is... come and get him'.

It's the climax of years of struggle and piles of magic... the revenge equivalent of blue balls on an epic scale... blue venegeance, if you will... no kidding Dassem loses his shit and attacks. I'm amazed he didn't detonate.

Karsa himself acts as a shield to steady Samar Dev, who is being assaulted by the levels of magic present due to Hood's manifestation, but Samar notices Karsa sweating, so when something is affecting the badass of all badasses, you KNOW it's got to be on another level completely.

Abyss, on 13 May 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

the broken, on 13 May 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

I don't think Cots told Dassem Hood was dead. I assumed he said something like 'You want Hood, you have to kill Rake', someone Traveller doesn't want to have to kill, especially after killing so many other people over the course of his quest. There's also the possibility Dassem realises Rake is actually capable of stopping him.

I figured it was a variation on 'if someone is taken by Dragnipur, breaking the sword is the only way to get to them'.

theocean, on 13 May 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

i dont know if daseem wouldve done what he did if he knew hood was dead, but then i dont understand his distraught after wards. If he thought he needed to defeat Rake to get to hood he should be OK with killing him.

He realized he had been manipulated, AND killed someone he respected. That's a really empty end result to something that's more or less defined his life for the last decade or two.

I also like to think that Dassem never truly grieved for the loss of his daughter, or ever reconciled those feelings. It more likely than not that once his fight with Rake was finished, the pain of everything crashed upon him. I would add more to this grieving process but it could spoil some stuff in a certain later book by our buddy ICE.

blackzoid, on 13 May 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Silencer, on 11 May 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

I think we're all missing something crucial here.

Spoiler

That wasn't Hood's body. His "real" body was left on the Throne of Ice, was it not? The manifestation in Darujhistan is just want he's been using to get around in as Hood. Therefore, it is highly likely that the body Rake decapitated (having been maintained purely through Hood's power) would have disappeared/rapidly dessicated and likely turned to dust regardless of Dragnipur.

Spoiler

But Erikson quite clearly states that this is not some sort of spirtual mainifestation of Hood. That it is him "in the flesh" so to speak. He really underlines that in the passage after the guard sees him. Ya, that means Hood contravenes the conservation of matter basically, but essentially he did have 2 bodies for a brief period in TtH. Unless we are led to assume that Hood should have shown up on his Ice Throne body and then gated to Darujistan but I don't think so. Erikson was just way too underlining for me in his description to put it off as some sort of temporary body thing.

Quote

That aside - just because Hood's body was lying there somewhat headless (assuming it was), doesn't mean that Hood was dead. If Traveller could still feel Hood's presence, then Hood wasn't, as far as he was concerned, dead. And he wasn't - let's be clear, Dragnipur =/= death. It's a fate potentially worse than death, but it is not equivalent to dying and therefore probably wouldn't satisfy Traveller. It has the same potential as deliberately entombing oneself in an Azath house - you could eventually get out.

I don't know, Erikson in his omniscent narrator thing in TtH, states the "dead god" several times in relation to Hood. And I'm also not at all liking the idea that Dragnipur is not as bad as "real" death. It should if anything be worse than an Azath becasue the entity dies to get its soul entombed, unlike an Azath which is the physical body alive and entombed. In Dragnipur its just that its soul does not go through Hood's gates. Would Traveller's "Hood-sense" be satisfied with Hood going through his own death-gate? Maybe?

This should seal up whether or not that was Hood, the real Hood and nothing but the Hood:

Quote

'So," continued Hood, 'here I stand. And the air surrounding me, the air rushing into my lungs, it lives. I cannot prevent what comes with my every step here in the mortal world. I cannot be other than what I am."

This was right before he decides to save the life of the noble guard with the heart problem. Then there's some stuff about honor, love and compassion. You know that stuff that has nothing to do with anything. Hehe...heart problem...

[blackzoid]

Ok, I apologise in advance if I come off looking argumentative.

Spoilsport Stonny, on 13 May 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Abyss, on 13 May 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

Defiance, on 10 May 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

I don't think Hood's body was right there. We have evidence that bodies disappear shortly after being Dragnipur'd - look at Gardens of the Moon for a prime example. I'm pretty sure the bodies of the two Hounds are gone after Rake slices them. I assume that, shortly after being decapitated, the same thing happened to Hood's corpse. Dassem could still sense Hood's presence due to the fact that Hood had fully manifested himself in Darujhistan....

All possible and true, but also bear in mind that by this point in the story, Dragnipur is 'leaking' - we know this because Ditch was able to access his warren when Draconus throws him up on the wagon.

After Rake Drag's Hood, and Rake falls on his knees to mirror Hood's headless corpse, there is mention of the chains like smoke emanating from the sword. Also, Chaos is nearing the wagon in the sword and eating at the warren that is Dragnipur, so this also makes sense.

This makes less sense to me. If Dragnipur was leaking, (and I agree with that determination in regards to Ditch and the other scenario which works as regards Draconus's projection outwards in RoTCG), then the sword should have LESS power to gobble up bodies, not more power. And we know that the sword at "normal" power didn't take the bodies of the two Ascendent Hounds in GOTM. Doesn't that make sense? That a sword falling apart has lost much of its power?

Abyss, on 13 May 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

I don't think so (big surprise). bAs far as Das is concerned, Hood, the god who he pledged loyalty to, who betrayed him and murdered his daughter, who he's been chasing for years, is right in front of him, finally, FINALLY... and his entiure aspect of sorrow is practically prolelling him towards revenge... heck, the entire Cult of Dessembrae is standing right there praying him on... and he walks into a city so rife with 'Death' that it's coming out of the walls... basicaly there's massive magic mojo hammering Dassem by this point, all kinds of crazy powerful prayer and history and ritual and his own frikkin god-aspect pushing him on... and then Rake doesn't so much kill Hood as take him away, then dangle the sword in front of Das and say 'here he is... come and get him'. It's the climax of years of struggle and piles of magic... the revenge equivalent of blue balls on an epic scale... blue venegeance, if you will... no kidding Dassem loses his shit and attacks. I'm amazed he didn't detonate.

While I do find the aspect of the cult may have been forcing Dassem onwards to the fight interesting, and it may track with Samar thinks is a chain around Traveller's neck metaphorically, it doesn't negate the words that Dassem says when he meets Rake. Which is essentially that Hood was physically close by. Not to put words in your mouth Abyss but the possible scenario that you outline:
1: Makes Rake look like an utter dick. Dangling Dragnipur in front of Dassem and saying "Nah Nah, here he is!" Which is not what I got emotionally from the scene.
2: Makes Dassem's "plan" be to win the fight, grab the sword and run off, than look for Brood's hammer to smash the sword and then kill Hood's spirit when it gets out somehow. All of which Dassem fails to do after he kills Rake.

Abyss, on 13 May 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

the broken, on 13 May 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

I don't think Cots told Dassem Hood was dead. I assumed he said something like 'You want Hood, you have to kill Rake', someone Traveller doesn't want to have to kill, especially after killing so many other people over the course of his quest. There's also the possibility Dassem realises Rake is actually capable of stopping him.

I figured it was a variation on 'if someone is taken by Dragnipur, breaking the sword is the only way to get to them'.

But Dassem didn't try to run off with the sword after he won. Thats the problem. He just collapsed. Ya, maybe he thought his plan was stupid at the end, but the impression I got was that he only realised then that Hood was already dead.

Abyss, on 13 May 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

theocean, on 13 May 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

i dont know if daseem wouldve done what he did if he knew hood was dead, but then i dont understand his distraught after wards. If he thought he needed to defeat Rake to get to hood he should be OK with killing him.

He realized he had been manipulated, AND killed someone he respected. That's a really empty end result to something that's more or less defined his life for the last decade or two.

But...but Abyss, by your scenario Cotillion has basically told him that Rake is in his way right?
He has also told him that Rake has killed Hood. Right? So what manipulation is now going on? Dassem has the chance to kill Rake, grab the sword and smash it. He should be mentally prepared to go through with killing the paragon Rake.
The manipulation angle only works, if Dassem DOESN'T know Rake had already killed Hood and that the fight is pointless. I think.

Spoilsport Stonny, on 13 May 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 13 May 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Silencer, on 11 May 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

I think we're all missing something crucial here.

Spoiler

That wasn't Hood's body. His "real" body was left on the Throne of Ice, was it not? The manifestation in Darujhistan is just want he's been using to get around in as Hood. Therefore, it is highly likely that the body Rake decapitated (having been maintained purely through Hood's power) would have disappeared/rapidly dessicated and likely turned to dust regardlessof Dragnipur.

Spoiler

But Erikson quite clearly states that this is not some sort of spirtual mainifestation of Hood. That it is him "in the flesh" so to speak. He really underlines that in the passage after the guard sees him. Ya, that means Hood contravenes the conservation of matter basically, but essentially he did have 2 bodies for a brief period in TtH. Unless we are led to assume that Hood should have shown up on his Ice Throne body and then gated to Darujistan but I don't think so. Erikson was just way too underlining for me in his description to put it off as some sort of temporary body thing.

Quote

That aside - just because Hood's body was lying there somewhat headless (assuming it was), doesn't mean that Hood was dead.If Traveller could still feel Hood's presence, then Hood wasn't, as far as he was concerned, dead. And he wasn't - let's beclear, Dragnipur =/= death. It's a fate potentially worse than death, but it is not equivalent to dying and therefore probably wouldn't satisfy Traveller. It has the same potential as deliberately entombing oneself in an Azath house - you could eventually get out.

I don't know, Erikson in his omniscent narrator thing in TtH, states the "dead god" several times in relation to Hood. And I'm also not at all liking the idea that Dragnipur is not as bad as "real" death. It should if anything be worse than an Azath becasue the entity dies to get its soul entombed, unlike an Azath which is the physical body alive and entombed. In Dragnipur its just that its soul does not go through Hood's gates. Would Traveller's "Hood-sense" be satisfied with Hood going through his own death-gate? Maybe?

This should seal up whether or not that was Hood, the real Hood and nothing but the Hood:

Quote

'So," continued Hood, 'here I stand. And the air surrounding me, the air rushing into my lungs, it lives. I cannot prevent what comes with my every step here in the mortal world. I cannot be other than what I am."

This was right before he decides to save the life of the noble guard with the heart problem. Then there's some stuff about honor, love and compassion. You know that stuff that has nothing to do with anything. Hehe...heart problem...

Ya, it seems pretty explicit to me. Hood had two bodies for a time.

[Imperial Historian]

Re Dassem vs Rake, I think the tragedy aspect of dassems godhood could definitely have added to the pressure that forced Dassem to fight Rake despite not wishing to.

Thats said I think my favourite part of the Rake/Traveller confrontation is that the outcome of the fight was apparently decided by rolling a dice, with a different end envisioned for the book otherwise.

Would have been interesting to see what had happened if the roll was different!

[Abyss]

Imperial Historian, on 13 May 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

... I think my favourite part of the Rake/Traveller confrontation is that the outcome of the fight was apparently decided by rolling a dice, with a different end envisioned for the book otherwise....

How so, when Rake went out of his way to rig the fight?

[Imperial Historian]

Abyss, on 13 May 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 13 May 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

... I think my favourite part of the Rake/Traveller confrontation is that the outcome of the fight was apparently decided by rolling a dice, with a different end envisioned for the book otherwise....

How so, when Rake went out of his way to rig the fight?

Yes it's always intrigued me, did a losing dice roll mean that rake killed dassem? or that dassem killed rake with vengeance rather than dragnipur? And how would he end the book if Rake had died by vengeance? Or if Rake had killed Dassem, would dassem have been fighting hood in dragnipur itself?

This is the quote:

There’s a significant encounter in Toll the Hounds between one of Erikson’s characters and one of Esslemont’s characters (fans who have read TtH will know the encounter I speak of) that was decided, in true RPG-nerd fashion, by a good ol’ fashion roll of a twenty-sided die. Erikson suggested that the end of that novel would have been much different if the die had rolled differently.

There is a better quote somewhere where SE talks about this further, which more explicitly links it to dassem vs rake, but I can't find it (anyone any ideas?).

[blackzoid]

Maybe there was 2 rolls of the dice. One to see who won and another to see which sword he was killed by?

[Abyss]

Interesting. I suppose the question is how does one get to the same outcome - Coral Andii saved from Dying God, Gate to Mommy D moved before Chaos can eat it, most chained souls eliminated, Dragnipur broken - if Rake had won the fight and Dragnipur'd Dassem.

The obvious answer is that Rake stabs himself and everything else follows as per the book, only with Dassem present and getting in the way trying to kill Hood the whole time.
That raises the whole 'why didn't Rake just give himself a paper cut' debate again, so I go with the assumption that the ritual could not be completed without a more impressive sacrifice.

So Rake still has to die, but likely one of the backups he had standing by... Brood or Baruk come to mind... possibly Cotillion... have to do the deed. Still a sacrifice since they all like/respect him.

Dassem killing Rake with Vengeance is more complicated. We could assume Rake's soul could hold on until someone either explains things to Dassem or picks up the sword and does it themself, altho Brood is likely the only one who could have done that, propelling Rake into Dranipur in time and everything follows as per the book only even closer to the wire.

If Rake couldn't be sent into Dragnipur, than i suppose two options come up... Das goes himself and completes the ritual, or someone breaks the sword and looses the gate (and likely the surviving chained souls) before Chaos can get it. Which would likely mean Coral and the Andii fall to the Dying God and Silanah scorches everything to the ground.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I could totally see Karsa picking up where Dassem left off. That fight would have been exceptional, but again, that just brings us to another roll of the dice.

[Defiance]

I don't think people consider that, if the dice had been rolled differently, the context of everything happening would likely have been vastly changed. I'm sure Erikson has added and expanded a lot of stuff that he took from his gaming with ICE. I don't think this is a scenario where, if that dice roll had been different, everything up to that point in the book would have been exactly the same. Things both before and after would have played out very differently. This is all just speculation so there's no way to know for sure, but to me it's the only thing that makes sense.

[theocean]

ok other questions....

does Vengence have any unique ability as a sword or is it just a nice sword...

Why was it possible to create a god inside Dragnipur? I never really got the logic of that whole plot line both how and why.

[blackzoid]

Vengence did not create the god inside Dragnipur, that was Draconus's pattern thing with the aid of that blind Andii painter whose name I forget.

[theocean]

blackzoid, on 14 May 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Vengence did not create the god inside Dragnipur, that was Draconus's pattern thing with the aid of that blind Andii painter whose name I forget.

those were seperate questions....

does vengence have any ability like the ruland/Rakes sword??

and

How was it possible for them to birth/create that god?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Your first question is a big RAFO, like post-Crippled God RAFO.

The second question is a bit tougher, but know that Kadaspala was tattooing a pattern on the weakened and dead bodies on the wagon. IT was under the command of Draconus, as a last ditch (hee hee...Ditch)effort to fend off chaos/protect the gate of mother dark.

Quote

THere were other ways of calling a god into being.
Gather a host of words, a host of words. Gather a host of words. Make them, make them, make them what? Physical, yes, make them physical, from the empty ether to the incision in clay, the stain on stone, the ink on skin. Physical, because the physical created - by its very nature before the eye (or the inner eye) - created and created patterns. And they could be played with played with played with. In numbers and sigils, in astral proportions. They could be coded inside codes inside codes until something is rendered, something both beautiful and absolute. Beautiful in its absoluteness. In its absolution, in its absolved essence, a thing of beauty.
Understand, won't you, the truth of patterns, how pattern finds truth in the tension of juxtaposition, in the game of meaning meaning the game which is the perfect pattern of language in the guise of imperfection - but what value any of this any of this any of this?
The value is the body of text (hah, the body - the bodies) that in its absoluteness becomes sacred, and in sacredness becomes all that it portrays in its convivial ordering of the essentially meaningless. Patterns where none existed before. Creation from nothing. Awakening from absence of self. And what is the word the
beautiful word the precious word and the perfect word that starts the game starts everything everything everything?
Why, the word is birth.

Quote

Ditch forced open what he thought of as an eye. His eye. Draconus stood above the blind Tiste Andii, Kadaspala, reaching down and dragging the squealing creature up with both hands round the man's scrawny neck.
'You damned fool! It won't work that way, don't you see that?'
Kadaspala could only choke in reply.
Draconus glowered for a moment longer, and then flung the man back down on to the heap of bodies.
Ditch managed a croaking laugh.
Turning to skewer Ditch with his glare, Draconus said, 'He sought to fashion a damned god here!'
'And it shall speak,' Ditch said, 'in my voice.'
'No, it shall not. Do not fall into this trap, Wizard. Nothing must be fashioned of this place—'
'What difference? We all are about to die. Let the god open its eyes. Blink once or twice, and then give voice . . .' he laughed again, 'the first cry also the last. Birth and death with nothing in between. Is there anything more tragic, Draconus? Anything at all?'
'Dragnipur,' said Draconus, 'is nobody's womb. Kadaspala, this was to be a cage. To keep Darkness in and Chaos out. One last, desperate barrier - the only gift we could offer. A gate that is denied its wandering must find a home, a refuge - a fortress, even one fashioned from flesh and bone. The pattern, Kadaspala, was meant to defy Chaos - two antithetical forces, as we discussed—'

Quote

Kadaspala had failed. The pattern was flawed; it had no power to resist what was about to assail them. It had been a desperate gambit, the only kind Draconus had left, and he could not even rail at the blind, legless Tiste Andii. None of us were up to this.
The moment Rake ceased killing things, we were doomed.

Unfortunately Kadaspala had different reasons for creating the gate (RAFO) and instead birthed a child God. Ditch's eye was basically what the God was using to "see" with. This was how he was able to show the child god that Anomander was being selfless and sacrificing himself. THe child god thought this a quite noble gesture and instead, killed Kadaspala, whose blood now powers the web gate. Ditch tells Apsalara to take his eye, essentially the eye of the god, to kill the god. Apsalara gives it to Rake, who is consumed as:

Quote

Darkness awakened, the pattern grasping hold of the Gate itself, and sinking, sinking down, passing beyond Dragnipur, leaving for ever the dread sword—

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 14 May 2013 - 03:15 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Yes, I have ebooks.