[Spoilsport Stonny]

I dunno, I would definitely suggest reading the Crippled God right after Dust of Dreams.

[theocean]

 Spoilsport Stonny, on 10 May 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

I dunno, I would definitely suggest reading the Crippled God right after Dust of Dreams.

Alright... ill read it that way then circle back around and get the other side of the series all together than i guess

[blackzoid]

 Tehol the Only, on 08 May 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Traveller feels cheated because Rake killed Hood (with whom he had a long-going grudge).

Even after 6ish rereads I still do not understand Traveller's motivation. Its senseless, because Hood's headless body was RIGHT THERE!!

So it becomes:

1: Traveller attacks Rake to win so that he kills the guy who killed Hood out of thwarted vengence. But Rake said Hood was close and that he was blocking the way. Therefore Hood still alive, but hang on, Hoods body is right there too? This explanation fails any sense.
2: Traveller attacks Rake to win so that he can get to Hood, thinking that he is still alive. But again, even if Hood's body was moved, why did Traveller collapse and start sobbing after "winning" the fight. Should he not have started looking for Hood? This explanation does not add up.
3: Traveller attcks Rake in order to LOSE so that he can get inside Dragnipur and maybe strangle Hood's soul with the Dragnipur chains. Thats a silly explanation but not one that fails any logic test.

Never mind the ho'd win aspect, the possible explanation for why Traveller would attack Rake is not at all apparant to me. Especially considering that Erikson never addresses the fact that Hood's headless body should still be LYING RIGHT IN FRONT OF RAKE when Traveller arrives. Erikson made a big deal of Hood and Rake been almost mirror images kneeling down in the street, so where the hell did the body go? Well?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 10 May 2013 - 02:38 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

 blackzoid, on 10 May 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

 Tehol the Only, on 08 May 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Traveller feels cheated because Rake killed Hood (with whom he had a long-going grudge).

Even after 6ish rereads I still do not understand Traveller's motivation. Its senseless, because Hood's headless body was RIGHT THERE!!

So it becomes:

1: Traveller attacks Rake to win so that he kills the guy who killed Hood out of thwarted vengence. But Rake said Hood was close and that he was blocking the way. Therefore Hood still alive, but hang on, Hoods body is right there too? This explanation fails any sense.
2: Traveller attacks Rake to win so that he can get to Hood, thinking that he is still alive. But again, even if Hood's body was moved, why did Traveller collapse and start sobbing after "winning" the fight. Should he not have started looking for Hood? This explanation does not add up.
3: Traveller attcks Rake in order to LOSE so that he can get inside Dragnipur and maybe strangle Hood's soul with the Dragnipur chains. Thats a silly explanation but not one that fails any logic test.

Never mind the ho'd win aspect, the possible explanation for why Traveller would attack Rake is not at all apparant to me. Especially considering that Erikson never addresses the fact that Hood's headless body should still be LYING RIGHT IN FRONT OF RAKE when Traveller arrives. Erikson made a big deal of Hood and Rake been almost mirror images kneeling down in the street, so where the hell did the body go? Well?

Very good points. But lets put into context Dassem's frame of mind around this time. SPOILERED for theocean's benefit.

Spoiler

After having to fake his death following the collapse of his emperor's court, then losing his daughter in an effort to chain an alien god, being blessed by an undead race of eons old-revenge monsters, then burying Hawl, protecting a magical bone throne, decimating countless Tiste Edur, fighting on the Stormwall, decimating countless Korelri, escaping said Stormwall TWICE, decimating countless more Tiste Edur,friending and then burying the last living member of an ancient race who refused to defend himself against the universe's biggest dickhole, and essentially circumnavigating the globe in search of futile vengance, while simultaneously ascending to minor godhood, he washes ashore nearly dehydrated and almost nearly dead, and has his skill ripped open by a surprise bear attack, his only sustenance the blood of said bear's heart. Then, he's tricked into heading to civilization by the very same enablers that have been fucking with his life since he was First Sword of their empire. When he finally makes it to the site of his promised turn at getting his revenge, its been stolen from him and the guy that did it refuses to get out of his way. At this point Dassem could be less considered a person and in fact a singular raging energy that is nothing short of about to explode at 5 billion megatons and uunfortunately has to do battle with an eons old holder of the sword that contains the gate to darkness.

Something tells me, he wasn't thinking straight.

[blackzoid]

Ya Spoilsport, I get that Traveller was probably not the best mentally, but I don't think he could miss the dead body of his sworn enemy lying right in front of him when he walks up to Rake and than not wonder why Rake mentions that Hood is close and he is somehow blocking Traveller from getting to Hood. Erikson has never even attempted to explain the motivation for why Traveller fights Rake, from Travellers point of view anyway. He does it...cos its time for a cool fight. Not that I don't love the fight, but there isn't a coherent excuse for why it happens.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 10 May 2013 - 03:50 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Even Dassem did not understand why Rake would "stand in his way". He says before their fight that he can feel him (Hood) close. But I guess he didn't see Hood's body, blinded by confusion and emotion and will. Shadowthrone told Dassem that Rake "would not yield" and that if Dassem wanted Hood, then "come and get him", according to Rake. Rake assumes a stance, and then Dassem goes right at him. That's it. Then the fight. Did SE fuck up and not add enough info here? Maybe. But I don't think it warrants a re-examining of Dassem's motivations for fighting Rake.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Also, Dassem realizes exactly who he just killed and exactly where he is going to end up. He does not know, however, that that was the whole plan anyway. So he thinks he doomed one of the greatest men ever to an endless wagon pulling. Samar then says "They are broken." so he is emotionally broken, and perhaps just no longer has the will to kill Hood.

[blackzoid]

But there is a contradiction.

1: Traveller says "Hood is close" and implies he is still alive. Well No, Traveller, your "Hood-alive-sense" is wrong and rubbish cos he is lying dead right in front of you!. Plus your eyes could use a tune-up too.
2: I agree that Traveller than breaks after the fight, either at killing Rake, in which case he should at least look around to see where Hood is hiding at or because he finally then sees Hoods body, but he would have been even more emotionally scarred after killing Rake, so why didn't he at least see the body before he fights Rake?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Maybe he senses his soul, which is anything but dead, and is inside Dragnipur. So yeah. Hood is close, in two different ways. I"m just playing devil's advocate and not being argumentative, btw. Its been a while since I was in a good discussion in the book forums.

[blackzoid]

Even if Hood's soul is close....Hood is dead. Job done as far as Traveller should be concerned, even if somebody else did it and not him.
Ya, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. But this has really really bugged me about the book for years so apologies if it seems I am.

[Defiance]

I don't think Hood's body was right there. We have evidence that bodies disappear shortly after being Dragnipur'd - look at Gardens of the Moon for a prime example. I'm pretty sure the bodies of the two Hounds are gone after Rake slices them. I assume that, shortly after being decapitated, the same thing happened to Hood's corpse.

Dassem could still sense Hood's presence due to the fact that Hood had fully manifested himself in Darujhistan.

Dassem broken down into sobbing because he has come to a realization: blind vengeance is fucking stupid. His only goal was to kill Hood, he felt he had nothing else to live for and was willing to do whatever it took to get revenge - even fighting Rake. I don't even know if Dassem wanted to beat Rake, but when he did the stupidity of his quest for revenge hit him. He let his personal feelings get in the way, which resulted in the death of one of the greatest Ascendants to ever live. And all for what? Some personal satisfaction at killing Hood? Of course we'll never know, but I don't think Dassem would have even felt better after killing Hood. He probably would have slit his own wrists right afterward.

I think this was Rake's way of saying, "Wake the fuck up, stop being such a pussy. You're an amazing swordsman and you're squandering all of your talent."

[Spoilsport Stonny]

 blackzoid, on 10 May 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

Even if Hood's soul is close....Hood is dead. Job done as far as Traveller should be concerned, even if somebody else did it and not him.
Ya, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. But this has really really bugged me about the book for years so apologies if it seems I am.

I gotta admit, I never though about it. And it does seem a little confusing. However, i don't think the guy being dead would have been enough for him. I really think he wanted to do the job himself. I also think he could have been aware of Hood via Hood's soul-beacon and still not know Hood was dead, especially if he didn't see a body without a head. SE should have been more clear here, but that can't be the first time he's had this criticism leveled at his writing.

 Defiance, on 10 May 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

I don't think Hood's body was right there. We have evidence that bodies disappear shortly after being Dragnipur'd - look at Gardens of the Moon for a prime example. I'm pretty sure the bodies of the two Hounds are gone after Rake slices them. I assume that, shortly after being decapitated, the same thing happened to Hood's corpse.

Dassem could still sense Hood's presence due to the fact that Hood had fully manifested himself in Darujhistan.

Dassem broken down into sobbing because he has come to a realization: blind vengeance is fucking stupid. His only goal was to kill Hood, he felt he had nothing else to live for and was willing to do whatever it took to get revenge - even fighting Rake. I don't even know if Dassem wanted to beat Rake, but when he did the stupidity of his quest for revenge hit him. He let his personal feelings get in the way, which resulted in the death of one of the greatest Ascendants to ever live. And all for what? Some personal satisfaction at killing Hood? Of course we'll never know, but I don't think Dassem would have even felt better after killing Hood. He probably would have slit his own wrists right afterward.

I think this was Rake's way of saying, "Wake the fuck up, stop being such a pussy. You're an amazing swordsman and you're squandering all of your talent."

Much better stated than I thank you, but I also think Dassem meant Hood was "close" as in "right the fuck there in your sword or at the most around the goddamned corner."

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 10 May 2013 - 04:55 PM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

THe bodies of the hounds weren't gone right away because doesn't Paran touch the blood of one and then end up inside Dragnipur?

[Defiance]

 Spoilsport Stonny, on 10 May 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

THe bodies of the hounds weren't gone right away because doesn't Paran touch the blood of one and then end up inside Dragnipur?

Yeah, just looked it up, you're totally right.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

 Defiance, on 10 May 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

 Spoilsport Stonny, on 10 May 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

THe bodies of the hounds weren't gone right away because doesn't Paran touch the blood of one and then end up inside Dragnipur?

Yeah, just looked it up, you're totally right.

Too bad. I liked the idea.

[Silencer]

I think we're all missing something crucial here.

Spoiler

That wasn't Hood's body. His "real" body was left on the Throne of Ice, was it not? The manifestation in Darujhistan is just want he's been using to get around in as Hood. Therefore, it is highly likely that the body Rake decapitated (having been maintained purely through Hood's power) would have disappeared/rapidly dessicated and likely turned to dust regardless of Dragnipur.

That aside - just because Hood's body was lying there somewhat headless (assuming it was), doesn't mean that Hood was dead. If Traveller could still feel Hood's presence, then Hood wasn't, as far as he was concerned, dead. And he wasn't - let's be clear, Dragnipur =/= death. It's a fate potentially worse than death, but it is not equivalent to dying and therefore probably wouldn't satisfy Traveller. It has the same potential as deliberately entombing oneself in an Azath house - you could eventually get out.

So there are a couple of ways that we can get around the problem. Assuming the body was still there, it would have been nice to have a bit more solid explanation/reaction from Traveller, but it can be handwaved. More likely, the body was no longer there (which could have done with a mention, granted) and thus we have every reason to believe that Traveller genuinely thought Rake was keeping him from his vengeance.

That's my take on it, anyway. But the scene as written does come of as somewhat contrived. XD

[Kanese S's]

It's been a long time since I read TTH. Is it explicitly said that the duel took place at the same location that Hood got Dragnipured?

Also, might Rake have been blocking Dassem's view?

Additionally, might Dassem know that if Rake killed Hood, it was likely with Dragnipur, and that therefore Hood wasn't actually dead? This would then imply that Rake really had stolen his revenge, by putting Hood somewhere essentially beyond Dassem's reach.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 11 May 2013 - 08:04 AM

[Silencer]

 Kanese S, on 11 May 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

It's been a long time since I read TTH. Is it explicitly said that the duel took place at the same location that Hood got Dragnipured?

Also, might Rake have been blocking Dassem's view?

Additionally, might Dassem know that if Rake killed Hood, it was likely with Dragnipur, and that therefore Hood wasn't actually dead? This would then imply that Rake really had stolen his revenge, by putting Hood somewhere essentially beyond Dassem's reach.

Absolutely; as I said above, for all intents and purposes Hood wasn't dead, just Dragnipur'd. But the thing is, while that is a perfectly good explanation for the ensuing battle (as are several alternatives), there is nothing to suggest that it is true. We get, iirc, one throw-away line about how Traveller can still sense Hood's presence, but that is all - when there is quite possibly a body lying around (and if there isn't, why not?), and more to the point, if Traveller has figured out where Hood now is, there could have at least been a moment where Traveller looks pointedly as Dragnipur, or whatever, to at least imply why the subsequent battle ensues.

However, I guess it has to mentioned that Toll is not really known for being the most hand-holding book of the MBotF series, and by all rights the series does not hand-hold in general. It follows that while Traveller's reasons for engaging in combat with the Son of Darkness might be very important (and there might be a few details that are important/would clarify things in that regard) and that some exposition/explanation as to why he missed the obvious would be a good thing for the reader...all of that clearly comes second to the fact that the two characters involved knew what they were going to do, and did it. For all we know, Traveller looked into Anomander's eyes and realized what Rake wanted to happen. *shrug* End of the day, while it is a nagging annoyance, it is pretty much par for the course, if in a slightly different form than the rest of the books.

(And iirc, while it has been a long while since I last re-read TtH, it was almost certainly in the same location...pretty sure Rake only got up from his kneeling position when Traveller showed up, in fact...but quote-fu could help with that one...)

[Kanese S's]

I may have pictured it wrong, but as I recall, when I was reading TTH I pictured Rake beheading Hood in a sort of square, while I imagined the confrontation between him and Dassem being more near the city gates. I don't know why. It's probably incorrect.

But yeah, if Dassem knows how Dragnipur works, even if he saw Hood's body, he'd know damn well that Hood was still alive, but basically beyond his reach.

[Defiance]

I think the battle is in the same place. I'd have to read through section again to make sure, but after Rake decapitates Hood I believe the weight of Dragnipur forces him onto his knees and chains/darkness spread throughout the street.