[Avernite]

QB and Ganoes Paran were both Bridgeburner members, and among their more powerful. Given that the whole lot of dead Bridgeburners ascended, they're either ascended already or one knife away from such.

I think, actually, that connection would be their main weapon against Draconus; nothing says 'we are strong' like having a good connection to a whole company of ascendants

[Kanese S's]

Also, this is Malazan. Anybody can beat anybody, given the right circumstances.

[Rehvenge]

One on one, the only ones i can see at equal standing with Draconus are Hood and Brood(and Icarium). QB could surprise him and even bleed his nose, but no way he could kill him, as he couldn't beat Ruin or even the sisters alone. Throw them to the ground? Yes. Bruise them? Yes. Realy damage them? No, from what we have seen so far.The sisters did one another, and the cusser wounded SR and gave him second thoughts about his rampage.

This post has been edited by Rehvenge: 01 December 2013 - 11:28 AM

[Defiance]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 25 November 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

She's an exceptional strategist, second to none, able to gather allies to her cause for reasons unknown. I have no doubt that she could find a way to defeat Draconus. One on one? Probably not, but thats not really her forte. Its a bit of a stretch, yes, but I cannot count her out of anything.

Hmm, an interesting way of looking at Tavore. Do most people view her this way? I, for one, never saw her as an exceptional strategist. That's not to say she didn't have some good plans over the course of the series, but she also made a lot of mistakes. That's what I always found so great about her character: she's a rather average woman who takes upon herself a monumental task. Sometimes things turn out the way she wants, but a lot of the time they don't and it's not her, but the excellent soldiers under her command, that are able to keep things going. A few examples:

Marines surviving Y'Ghatan. They would have died without Bottle. Faradan Sort staying behind with Sinn.

Invasion of Lether. Poor intelligence in regards to Tiste Edur ruling Letherii. Luckily, the marines were able to turn it around.

Army waiting outside of Lether for Keneb's forces. Beak saved their asses.

I dunno, maybe there's some greatness that I'm overlooking. But I really liked her character because she wasn't another Dassem or Dujek in terms of command and strategy.

Anyway, really excited for this. I'm glad Steve managed to get all of the content he wanted to into the book (or so it seems). I think I'm most excited to see the War on Death and these resulting power leaks that K'rul is going to be involved with.

This post has been edited by Defiance: 02 December 2013 - 01:10 AM

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

fair point on the Bridgeburners being ascendants and the surviving ones being close. I think some characters in the series are never leaving tbh like Dassem, Draconus, Hood. Some are just too big to lose, Hood died (again!) then just carried on after gettin out of the sword, Dassem is Dassem and Draconus is new to the fold so far as he was in his sword for so damn long, but how he affected everyone I think is unique and will continue to make waves throughout the series for some time to come.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Defiance, on 02 December 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny, on 25 November 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

She's an exceptional strategist, second to none, able to gather allies to her cause for reasons unknown. I have no doubt that she could find a way to defeat Draconus. One on one? Probably not, but thats not really her forte. Its a bit of a stretch, yes, but I cannot count her out of anything.

Hmm, an interesting way of looking at Tavore. Do most people view her this way? I, for one, never saw her as an exceptional strategist. That's not to say she didn't have some good plans over the course of the series, but she also made a lot of mistakes. That's what I always found so great about her character: she's a rather average woman who takes upon herself a monumental task. Sometimes things turn out the way she wants, but a lot of the time they don't and it's not her, but the excellent soldiers under her command, that are able to keep things going. A few examples:

Marines surviving Y'Ghatan. They would have died without Bottle. Faradan Sort staying behind with Sinn.

Invasion of Lether. Poor intelligence in regards to Tiste Edur ruling Letherii. Luckily, the marines were able to turn it around.

Army waiting outside of Lether for Keneb's forces. Beak saved their asses.

I dunno, maybe there's some greatness that I'm overlooking. But I really liked her character because she wasn't another Dassem or Dujek in terms of command and strategy.

I here you. I guess it seems like a stretch until you examine all the things she accomplished.

First, though, one of my favorite passages ever from tCG, Paran and Quick Ben on their chances of winning and who they are putting their faith in:

Quote

Paran looked away. 'My family … aye, we were something of a mess. But I will tell you this, this one thing I know without any doubt, and it starts with a memory – my sister had an area of ground cleared for her at the country estate, and it was where, beginning when she was barely five years old, she used toys to fight battles from every history book and scroll she could find. And the times when my father entertained High Fists in his horse-selling ventures, he'd make it a kind of challenge to those veteran commanders – take to the field against little sallow-faced Tavore, with all those toy soldiers. Count your attrition honestly, and see what happens. My sister, Quick Ben, from about seven onward, never lost to a single commander. And when their corpses were dragged away, she went deeper into the histories, she started taking the loser's sides, and then won those, too.'
'Tavore, then.'
'Think of all the great military leaders – Dassem, Coltaine, K'azz, Dujek, Greymane – for what it is worth, I would pit my sister against any of them. Gods below, against all of them.'

Now, I will admit that its Ganoes talking here and what the hell does he know, right? But at this time he is The Master of the Deck with a couple years under his belt, and we know his penchant for entering Azath, travelling around through his deck and gaining knowledge. He managed to withstand a Kolansi siege led by some High Watered FA, so he understands a thing or two about tactics. I dunno, I can see a point where Tavore isn't anything more than the sum of her army, but she put everything in the right position, prepared her troops, listened to the right people and made the right friends. She set things up to simultaneously take out ALL the Forkrul Assail, re-chain the Otataral Dragon, Capture the Crippled God's heart and return him to his home, stayed the Jade Giants, inoculated Burn and made allies with the K'Chain Chemaile. Combine that with her military knowledge, and I gauge that as highly formidable. You know, for a mere non-Ascendant human.

EDIT: I also know I'm not really playing by the rules, and one on one, yeah Draconus could certainly beat Tavore, yadda yadda yadda. But if we're talking about what makes the individual great and are fairly employing their strengths, I count Tavore up with all the high ranked players. Personally I don't see Tavore as ever allowing herself to be caught one on one with Draconus, and would already have a contingency planned for defeating him before Draconus ever had the opportunity for a face-off with her.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 02 December 2013 - 03:10 PM

[Raraku]

Tavore's role is like Batman's in the Justice League. Sure she would get a beat down from uber powered guys but I think she would manipulate circumstance so that she doesn't have to go one-on-one with any of them.

[Tarthenal Theloman Toblakai]

Raraku, on 03 December 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Tavore's role is like Batman's in the Justice League. Sure she would get a beat down from uber powered guys but I think she would manipulate circumstance so that she doesn't have to go one-on-one with any of them.

Love this analogy! you win the thread! haha

[Aptorian]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 02 December 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

EDIT: I also know I'm not really playing by the rules, and one on one, yeah Draconus could certainly beat Tavore, yadda yadda yadda. But if we're talking about what makes the individual great and are fairly employing their strengths, I count Tavore up with all the high ranked players. Personally I don't see Tavore as ever allowing herself to be caught one on one with Draconus, and would already have a contingency planned for defeating him before Draconus ever had the opportunity for a face-off with her.

I have tried to stay away from this topic because I thought it was silly, but seriously here.

It's Draconus. An Elder God of legend that makes other gods quiver in fear. Ottataral does not work on him. The unentiontional unfolding of his power destroyed a countryside and made every mage in the hemisphere have an epileptic fit and fall unconcious. Draconus teleports into Tavores camp and sneezes and everyone is dead. There is no contest here. Quick Ben doesn't step in front of him and go "You shall not pass". Everyone dies. End of story. And that is the up close and physical kind of confrontation. The Gods have far worse ways of ending you in both direct and indirect ways.

Tavore is a great commander but no amount of military strategy matters if you're standing in the way of an elemental power that can smite you with a raised eyebrow.

This post has been edited by Crustaceous Apt: 03 December 2013 - 09:48 AM

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Crustaceous Apt, on 03 December 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny, on 02 December 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

EDIT: I also know I'm not really playing by the rules, and one on one, yeah Draconus could certainly beat Tavore, yadda yadda yadda. But if we're talking about what makes the individual great and are fairly employing their strengths, I count Tavore up with all the high ranked players. Personally I don't see Tavore as ever allowing herself to be caught one on one with Draconus, and would already have a contingency planned for defeating him before Draconus ever had the opportunity for a face-off with her.

I have tried to stay away from this topic because I thought it was silly, but seriously here.

It's Draconus. An Elder God of legend that makes other gods quiver in fear. Ottataral does not work on him. The unentiontional unfolding of his power destroyed a countryside and made every mage in the hemisphere have an epileptic fit and fall unconcious. Draconus teleports into Tavores camp and sneezes and everyone is dead. There is no contest here. Quick Ben doesn't step in front of him and go "You shall not pass". Everyone dies. End of story. And that is the up close and physical kind of confrontation. The Gods have far worse ways of ending you in both direct and indirect ways.

Tavore is a great commander but no amount of military strategy matters if you're standing in the way of an elemental power that can smite you with a raised eyebrow.

Yeah, but still.

[Aptorian]

Spoilsport Stonny, on 03 December 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Crustaceous Apt, on 03 December 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny, on 02 December 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

EDIT: I also know I'm not really playing by the rules, and one on one, yeah Draconus could certainly beat Tavore, yadda yadda yadda. But if we're talking about what makes the individual great and are fairly employing their strengths, I count Tavore up with all the high ranked players. Personally I don't see Tavore as ever allowing herself to be caught one on one with Draconus, and would already have a contingency planned for defeating him before Draconus ever had the opportunity for a face-off with her.

I have tried to stay away from this topic because I thought it was silly, but seriously here.

It's Draconus. An Elder God of legend that makes other gods quiver in fear. Ottataral does not work on him. The unentiontional unfolding of his power destroyed a countryside and made every mage in the hemisphere have an epileptic fit and fall unconcious. Draconus teleports into Tavores camp and sneezes and everyone is dead. There is no contest here. Quick Ben doesn't step in front of him and go "You shall not pass". Everyone dies. End of story. And that is the up close and physical kind of confrontation. The Gods have far worse ways of ending you in both direct and indirect ways.

Tavore is a great commander but no amount of military strategy matters if you're standing in the way of an elemental power that can smite you with a raised eyebrow.

Yeah, but still.

Well, when you put it that way, I admit you have a point.

Shall we call it a draw?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Crustaceous Apt, on 03 December 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny, on 03 December 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Crustaceous Apt, on 03 December 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Spoilsport Stonny, on 02 December 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

EDIT: I also know I'm not really playing by the rules, and one on one, yeah Draconus could certainly beat Tavore, yadda yadda yadda. But if we're talking about what makes the individual great and are fairly employing their strengths, I count Tavore up with all the high ranked players. Personally I don't see Tavore as ever allowing herself to be caught one on one with Draconus, and would already have a contingency planned for defeating him before Draconus ever had the opportunity for a face-off with her.

I have tried to stay away from this topic because I thought it was silly, but seriously here.

It's Draconus. An Elder God of legend that makes other gods quiver in fear. Ottataral does not work on him. The unentiontional unfolding of his power destroyed a countryside and made every mage in the hemisphere have an epileptic fit and fall unconcious. Draconus teleports into Tavores camp and sneezes and everyone is dead. There is no contest here. Quick Ben doesn't step in front of him and go "You shall not pass". Everyone dies. End of story. And that is the up close and physical kind of confrontation. The Gods have far worse ways of ending you in both direct and indirect ways.

Tavore is a great commander but no amount of military strategy matters if you're standing in the way of an elemental power that can smite you with a raised eyebrow.

Yeah, but still.

Well, when you put it that way, I admit you have a point.

Shall we call it a draw?

Indeed we shall! HUZZAH!

[Meese]

I remember a scene when The Errant is standing on a hill surrounded be dead FA. i mean surrounded. And there is all that stuff in DOD I think about a war between the TL and the FA. Soesn't that lovely mage who saved the BH - Oh whats his name - tell the captain about it when the marines land on Lether.

[Meese]

I missed something. When did Draconus drop into Travores camp and sneeze?

[Aptorian]

You are thinking of Beak the magical Savant.

And as for Draconus, no he never came anywhere near tavores camp in TCG as far as we know. I was just reacting to the notion that Tavore would ever be any kind of opposition or trouble to a being like Draconus. When a physical manifestation of power can just step out of thin air and turn everything in a ten mile radius into glass, you don't fight, you run or you die.

This post has been edited by Maybe Apt: 16 January 2014 - 09:50 PM

[Shadow of Shadowthrone]

January 22nd, 2014, Captain's Log:

This has been the longest dry spell I have experienced after discovering the grandeur of the Malazan Books of the Fallen.
A little over four years ago, I tried Gardens of the Moon for the third time, and finally managed to bite through and "get it". I followed up, obviously, with Deadhouse Gates and as I read on, I was more and more immersed in this absolutely massive epic story. I hit Dust of Dreams just as The Crippled God was released; no break needed, then. And I began Ian C. Esslemont's works.
And the two kept on giving; there were novellas to read, Forge of Darkness was published, and Esslemont's books were coming out faster than a fan could reasonably expect.
And then...
this.

Fall of Light! Assail!
I summon thee

[tiam]

Maybe Apt, on 16 January 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

You are thinking of Beak the magical Savant.

And as for Draconus, no he never came anywhere near tavores camp in TCG as far as we know. I was just reacting to the notion that Tavore would ever be any kind of opposition or trouble to a being like Draconus. When a physical manifestation of power can just step out of thin air and turn everything in a ten mile radius into glass, you don't fight, you run or you die.

That was probably the best power scene in the books for me. All the infighting and all sorts from two sides and one big ancient fucking entity turns up and accidentally steps on them.

I would also like a resolution in these books to the throwaway line at the end of the chapter in HOC that names Icarium as a friend of the Liosan and Slayer of the Ten Thousand. Just knowing what race these ten thousand are would shine alot of light onto this.

[Abyss]

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 24 January 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

...
I would also like a resolution in these books to the throwaway line at the end of the chapter in HOC that names Icarium as a friend of the Liosan and Slayer of the Ten Thousand. Just knowing what race these ten thousand are would shine alot of light onto this.

I thought that's a ref to the Imass who make up the staircase Karsa and co travel, tho it could be FA during the Just Wars.

[Binder of Demons]

NoOneExpectsThetiamishInquisition, on 24 January 2014 - 10:09 PM, said:

Maybe Apt, on 16 January 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

You are thinking of Beak the magical Savant.

And as for Draconus, no he never came anywhere near tavores camp in TCG as far as we know. I was just reacting to the notion that Tavore would ever be any kind of opposition or trouble to a being like Draconus. When a physical manifestation of power can just step out of thin air and turn everything in a ten mile radius into glass, you don't fight, you run or you die.

That was probably the best power scene in the books for me. All the infighting and all sorts from two sides and one big ancient fucking entity turns up and accidentally steps on them.

I would also like a resolution in these books to the throwaway line at the end of the chapter in HOC that names Icarium as a friend of the Liosan and Slayer of the Ten Thousand. Just knowing what race these ten thousand are would shine alot of light onto this.

Well if Erikson does write the Toblakai trilogy (eventually) I'm sure you'll get some sort of explanation.

[Traveller]

15th Feb 2015?

When did that happen?

This post has been edited by Traveller: 06 February 2014 - 02:02 PM