[worry]

1) Last night Anita Sarkeesian was blasted with child pornography via Twitter. She expressed her frustrations with the non-transparent (ie intentionally obscured) way to report that account for that specific type of abuse, a form disconnected from the more standard & ineffectual abuse report button that Twitter implemented. She was then bombarded with gamergate guys criticizing her for reporting the account on Twitter "instead of" (their assumption) proper legal authorities. It was sickening. Here's a catalog of the (non-child porn) abuse she's received recently: http://femfreq.tumbl...in-how-this-has
Notice the dates, these are not comprehensive but a selection of stuff from the past couple weeks. Also recall the abuse began before even the first Tropes vs Women video was released.

2) Zoe Quinn has been recording the IRC chats of the (4chan) people behind gamergate, who it turns out are quite deliberately targeting these women and using the journalism "scandal" among other things as a public face for all the misogynist destruction of lives they plan. Turns out even manipulating noted dimwit Adam Baldwin to get involved was within their plans. The FBI are involved. Documented here: https://storify.com/...ne/gameovergate

3) #gamergate and #notyourshield were both deliberate smokescreens (or, ironically, shields) for those intending to harass/abuse women online. http://cathodedebris...d-notyourshield

There aren't two sides to this issue. It's not a matter of clashing opinions or free speech. There is no "but there are bad people on both sides". These women are being victimized in a premeditated campaign of harassment and abuse meant to silence female (and other dissenting, critical, or even just analytical) voices in and around the gaming community. To destroy their careers, and if possible, hurt them at any other level manageable.

[amphibian]

I can vouch for how bad Twitter's "abuse"policy is. They took some not-good legal advice and only remove accounts for direct threats made - and only if the threats are made to you (can't report as a bystander).

Add in their bad interface for reporting abuse and you have a system that deters everyone except the most determined people with a computer and multiple tabs open to link specifics.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

worry, on 06 September 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

There aren't two sides to this issue. It's not a matter of clashing opinions or free speech. There is no "but there are bad people on both sides". These women are being victimized in a premeditated campaign of harassment and abuse meant to silence female (and other dissenting, critical, or even just analytical) voices in and around the gaming community. To destroy their careers, and if possible, hurt them at any other level manageable.

Spot on.

Sometimes I really do sit and wonder what the hell is wrong with the world

[worry]

An attempt at historical context, well worth the read: https://medium.com/@...ny-1d412f212bda

[D'iversify]

worry, on 10 September 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

An attempt at historical context, well worth the read: https://medium.com/@...ny-1d412f212bda

Second well worth a read, thanks Worry for linking it.

This post has been edited by D'iversify: 10 September 2014 - 09:30 AM

[Tsundoku]

Oh dear, oh dear ...

http://www.news.com....9-1227178990503

[Aptorian]

I think this is awesome.

And I know what I will be... researching tonight.

But seriously, I enjoy that a sex worker of all people has chosen to throw in against Sarkeesian. It's not that Sarkeesian doesn't have a point at time but any proper argument, especially one on an academic level, needs counter arguments or a devil's advocate. Doesn't get much more interesting than a so called "oppressed woman".

You can't accuse "Princess Kora" of being a misogynist or thug or chauvenist, etc. She's a fucking camwhore. She's on the complete opposite side of the spectrum of the sociological discussion.

EDIT: Also, you know you're famous when pornstar impersonators emerge. Now we just wait for the midget impersonators.

This post has been edited by Apt: 09 January 2015 - 07:35 AM

[amphibian]

The sex worker is absolutely right about Sarkeesian being dismissive/prejudicial in a bad way towards the industry and the people who work within it. To have that one hang-up about feminism is a bit odd in my view (and many others') and I hope she gets over that soon.

This still doesn't make Sarkeesian wrong about the majority of the gaming-related stuff she's talked about, so there's not really a counter-argument going on here. There's a valid point being made about Sarkeesian retaining prejudice against other people (mostly women) and some $ being made off that point.

[worry]

Yah I'm pretty much on that same page. Sex work just isn't a settled question, so to speak, even among generally sex-positive feminists -- for reasons good, bad, and grey. That said, Kora's argument that Anita's apparent prejudice stems from the same paternalistic roots in misogyny (eg virginity = virtue) is totally off. There are real feminism-based concerns about sex work that can and do, unfortunately, elide agency too.

[LinearPhilosopher]

https://www.youtube....annel=AEIVideos

While we're at it i figured i may as well stir this pot some more. Thoughts?

From my own experiences admininstrating small tournaments (200ppl) on league, I know there's a whole lotta social awkwardness, but outright chauvinism i find in ratios comparable to real life. As to game's themselves, i find it's quite rapidly changing to a very equal footing. A recent game i played, Dragon Age inquisition had a very large and diverse cast with some characters being quite deep on both sides of the gender divide (it even had a transexual minor character).

But this brings me to another point, fanservice (in any media). Does anyone think that it is possible that there exists a way to have fanservice that pays tribute to female form without it being considered exploitative?

http://beingsakin.fi.../08/fashion.jpg

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 09 January 2015 - 01:52 PM

[QuickTidal]

I agree with the above statements. I actually think there is a subset of feminism which is basically "This is how you be a feminist. All my points are correct. If you disagree with any of those points, you are either a male misogynist, or you're a female working AGAINST the cause." And I think it falls into the same trap/category as a lot of online debate...the equivalent or variation of the subjectivity argument: "Stop liking what I don't like!"

In that vein Sarkeesian's dismissiveness is a subset of her individual subjective feelings about sex workers, and the paint brush she uses is one of "You should agree with this. This is what someone who seeks equality would seek and agree with." without taking into account the other viewpoints of that specific work (in this case sex work). And I agree that it doesn't make Sarkeesian wrong about most of the stuff she's made note of about gaming, it just muddies her stance up with a wobbly opinion, and Kora has called her on it.

[Aptorian]

Dragon Age: Inquisition is perhaps not the best example, seeing as EA/Bioware have have gone out of their way to make these games as open as possible to all genders and sexualities. It's one of EAs major marketing points, that they are the most "politically aware" or something like that.

Personally I subscribe to the old saying, don't write a male or female character, just write a character. The gender should not have to define the protagonist unless the gender directly plays into the story. Similarly, I don't believe the characters sexuality defines the character, therefore it is not necessary to explore it unless the story specifically calls for it. I really do not care of Marcus Phoenix is gay or straight, I just want to cut weird green fungus people in half with my chainsaw riffle.

[D'rek]

Sombra, on 08 January 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

Oh dear, oh dear ...

http://www.news.com....9-1227178990503

Capitalism at it's finest?

I'm all for it! You go Kora! Cool that she is going to use it as a bit of a vehicle for education about sex and strip work, too (though it may not be the medium with the most attentive audience, but every bit helps!).

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Personally I subscribe to the old saying, don't write a male or female character, just write a character. The gender should not have to define the protagonist unless the gender directly plays into the story. Similarly, I don't believe the characters sexuality defines the character, therefore it is not necessary to explore it unless the story specifically calls for it. I really do not care of Marcus Phoenix is gay or straight, I just want to cut weird green fungus people in half with my chainsaw riffle.

Great example: Saints Row. You can massively customize your character to the gender and appearance you want, and it makes absolutely no difference to the gameplay.

[QuickTidal]

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

I really do not care of Marcus Phoenix is gay or straight, I just want to cut weird green fungus people in half with my chainsaw riffle.

This. Also LOL.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Dragon Age: Inquisition is perhaps not the best example, seeing as EA/Bioware have have gone out of their way to make these games as open as possible to all genders and sexualities. It's one of EAs major marketing points, that they are the most "politically aware" or something like that.

Personally I subscribe to the old saying, don't write a male or female character, just write a character. The gender should not have to define the protagonist unless the gender directly plays into the story. Similarly, I don't believe the characters sexuality defines the character, therefore it is not necessary to explore it unless the story specifically calls for it. I really do not care of Marcus Phoenix is gay or straight, I just want to cut weird green fungus people in half with my chainsaw riffle.

A very valid point.I think kino from kino's journey (anime) exemplifies this well. However i find it perplexing to a degree how we can talk about characters devoid of their gender when we are discussing them from a either a feminist perspective, or commenting upon the feminist perspective on character(this thread). I mean the thread has feminist within it's title.

[Aptorian]

BalrogLord, on 09 January 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

However i find it perplexing to a degree how we can talk about characters devoid of their gender when we are discussing them from a either a feminist perspective, or commenting upon the feminist perspective on character(this thread). I mean the thread has feminist within it's title.

Well, that would lead to my issue with feminists in general. Or for that matter any other movement in which a persons qualities or characteristics are the focus of the discussion, like say the gay movement, racial tensions, fiscal or cultural clefts, etc..

In taking up the fight against what ever inequality, the need for attention or understanding of the issue over powers all other needs or view points. In the case of the feminist video gamer it becomes imperative that the female character is not only given her due, but in fact empowered and raised up to some point that becomes unrealistic or ridiculous. Any slight against female is a crime, like Lara Croft almost being raped by a bad person on a bad island or a female NPC being a hooker in a GTA game (because social realism is bad). Any story that does not feature a strong, well written female character is thumb in the eye of the right minded, like AC Unity lacking female co-op skins or hey, Super Mario because Peach is in another castle, etc.

In reality, at least in my opinion, your sex or sexuality, your skin color, your heritage or creed means nothing at all. Your gender does not define you unless you want it to define you.

Where my issue lies with much of Sarkeesian work is the angle. When a woman is kidnapped it is an insult because it implies women are weak and need men to save them. Which is twisting the actual implied story. E.g. A loved one has been taken and the partner is willing to go through hell and high water to bring the loved one back.

When you drive over a woman and make skid marks on her head in Saints Row or GTA (I have totally not done this several time OH MAN LOOK AT THOSE BLOODEFFECTS) it is suddenly a case of misogyny because the male protagonist did something mean to the female NPC. No he didn't. A random person was killed by a random person. The gender means nothing.

I fully agree that the video game industry needs better stories about women and some plots that aren't completely paper thin, but women are not exempt from danger and every game does not have to feature a strong female character. Weak female characters exist. Slutty, dumb, shallow, greedy women do exist, just like there exists violent, domineering, chauvinistic, single minded men. How ever the depiction of one is not an accusation of the entire gender. It is completely up to the artist or producer to decide what kind of story they tell. If you don't like GTA just don't play it.

My point is that when you wrote:

Quote

Does anyone think that it is possible that there exists a way to have fanservice that pays tribute to female form without it being considered exploitative?

I have no idea what you mean.

Rereading it I think I may have misunderstood you completely. I thought your question was “is it possible to create good female video game characters?” but going over it again, it sounds like you're asking if it is possible to create a game about sexy lady bodies with out it being creepy? In which case look no further than Bayonetta. Whom I am sure feminists hate. However Bayonetta is pretty much a female powerfantasy mixed with 2 meter long legs and stripper poses.

(also Dead or Alive: Volleyball is a master piece)

I do not think the gender matters. My prior post and this one was a rebuttal of talking about video games from a feministic perspective. We don't need better written women. We need better written video games period.

This post has been edited by Apt: 09 January 2015 - 04:20 PM

[Illuyankas]

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

In taking up the fight against what ever inequality, the need for attention or understanding of the issue over powers all other needs or view points. In the case of the feminist video gamer it becomes imperative that the female character is not only given her due, but in fact empowered and raised up to some point that becomes unrealistic or ridiculous.

This is as accurate a statement as saying all Christians are like WBC, aka it's total garbage and wrong. Please stop conflating the issues with the overly exaggerated most vocal positions the cherrypicked extreme nutters spew forth, cause they are seriously not the majority and it's completely dishonest and ignorant to blithely assume so.

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

Any slight against female is a crime, like Lara Croft almost being raped by a bad person on a bad island or a female NPC being a hooker in a GTA game (because social realism is bad). Any story that does not feature a strong, well written female character is thumb in the eye of the right minded, like AC Unity lacking female co-op skins or hey, Super Mario because Peach is in another castle, etc.

Why would people take offence at female characters getting majority-woman related threats like rape (which is nowhere in dude backstories and in a huge amount of lady backstories), or a game where the female characters are not playable, horrible caricatures, or brainless npcs that you murderfuck? And don't tell me GTA is realistic because pfffffffft. The idea of 'hey maybe there could be women characters who don't have game stuff focused on their gender' has been distorted into 'unless Zelda is the new hero in Legend of Zelda games I'm going to become hysterical' and it's nonsense.

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

In reality, at least in my opinion, your sex or sexuality, your skin color, your heritage or creed means nothing at all. Your gender does not define you unless you want it to define you.

And over here in the real world, the opinions of others on those definitions continue to fuck up and harm people all the time. Legislatively! And video games are one of the most popular forms of entertainment in the Western world, which can't be so easily dismissed. The role of the media we consume as children on our general development is inarguable.

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

Where my issue lies with much of Sarkeesian work is the angle. When a woman is kidnapped it is an insult because it implies women are weak and need men to save them. Which is twisting the actual implied story. E.g. A loved one has been taken and the partner is willing to go through hell and high water to bring the loved one back.

When 95% of rescue plots are 'man saves woman who can't save herself without man' there's something going on there!

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

When you drive over a woman and make skid marks on her head in Saints Row or GTA (I have totally not done this several time OH MAN LOOK AT THOSE BLOODEFFECTS) it is suddenly a case of misogyny because the male protagonist did something mean to the female NPC. No he didn't. A random person was killed by a random person. The gender means nothing.

This complaint would be erased on both sides by having a female protagonist and rentboys as npcs. The fact that there have been incredibly arguments against this (elsenet, not by you of course) says something.

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

I fully agree that the video game industry needs better stories about women and some plots that aren't completely paper thin, but women are not exempt from danger and every game does not have to feature a strong female character. Weak female characters exist. Slutty, dumb, shallow, greedy women do exist, just like there exists violent, domineering, chauvinistic, single minded men. How ever the depiction of one is not an accusation of the entire gender. It is completely up to the artist or producer to decide what kind of story they tell. If you don't like GTA just don't play it.

You understand you're more on the side of 'less female characters' than the side of 'better stories about women', right? Like, you're shouting the better stories side down because you think a few of them have gone too far! If there's anything the whole Sarkeesian/Gamergate mess has shown, is that the better stories, 'gaming is full of misogyny let's see what we can do it to fix it' side? They have a point. They have THE point. Seriously.

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

My point is that when you wrote:

Quote

Does anyone think that it is possible that there exists a way to have fanservice that pays tribute to female form without it being considered exploitative?

I have no idea what you mean.

My answer to the question: The concept 'fanservice' is literally 'scenes to jerk off to' so probably not.

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

Rereading it I think I may have misunderstood you completely. I thought your question was “is it possible to create good female video game characters?” but going over it again, it sounds like you're asking if it is possible to create a game about sexy lady bodies with out it being creepy? In which case look no further than Bayonetta. Whom I am sure feminists hate. However Bayonetta is pretty much a female powerfantasy mixed with 2 meter long legs and stripper poses.

(also Dead or Alive: Volleyball is a master piece)

Bayonetta, while a kickass lead character, is explicitly stated to have been visually designed to meet as many fetishes the creator holds as possible. Personalitywise though, definitely not that bad (I make no comment on the story). I want to say Femshep is great, but then again she's a male-dialogue genderswap so ennnnnnnnnnh I'll say her design is awesome and sensible.

Can you play Dead of Alive Beach Volleyball one handed? If not, why wouldn't they do that?

Apt, on 09 January 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

I do not think the gender matters. My prior post and this one was a rebuttal of talking about video games from a feministic perspective. We don't need better written women. We need better written video games period.

I agree, that's why when people bring up angles we're uncomfortable with facing we should shun them and continue doing exactly what we were doing befor- OH WAI

[D'rek]

BalrogLord, on 09 January 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

A very valid point.I think kino from kino's journey (anime) exemplifies this well. However i find it perplexing to a degree how we can talk about characters devoid of their gender when we are discussing them from a either a feminist perspective, or commenting upon the feminist perspective on character(this thread). I mean the thread has feminist within it's title.

Sure you can. There's no solid definition of feminism anymore, talk about whatever you want! Unlike when 'feminism' was fighting for women's suffrage, there's no discrete law about what movies women are allowed to watch or what video games women are allowed to play, so the term 'feminism' is much more malleable now.

Keeping it to video games, for some people feminism in video games means no female characters should ever be put in the slightest unfavourable position ever again. I don't agree, but that's their opinion and I guess their entitled to it.

For others, feminism in video games is trying to get companies to be more inviting to female players - like how AC Unity decided it would only have male assassins (and gave some really stupid excuses about why they wouldn't). Some 'feminists' are very passionate and shouted a lot and demanded that there be a female assassin. Others were a bit more open-minded and acknowledged that the company doesn't have any obligation to do so, but arranged boycotts of the game to try and show incentive to companies that women sometimes like to roleplay as their own gender. And some were just annoying bratty trolls. But they can all be considered 'feminists' if they want to since it has no specific definition.


Personally, I think it is all about trends and not individual games. One game, or even one series, about Mario rescuing Peach is not a problem. But the overall lack of diversity of roles and continuous repetition of the same plots across the industry is, somewhat similar to what Apt said above... sort of.

More so than that, though, I find more concerning the literal depiction of women versus men in games - that is the way they are visually constructed. Between box art, graphic designs, etc women are extremely frequently designed/drawn in a way that seems primarily designed as visual stimulation whereas this is much less common for male characters (like the Avengers poster debacle where all the men characters are in triumphy hero poses and the one woman on the team is in some convoluted show-off-your-ass pose that makes no sense).

For me, it's not so much about "hey video games industry this is wrong" as much as it is about "hey video games industry did you know your actual audience isn't all 13-year-old boys, maybe you could make some games that don't alienate this huge swath of your audience that is women? And maybe don't be dismissive idiots to the women in your audience because we're sentient people too? (and also it'd be pretty cool if even those games that were for 13y boys were a bit less misogynistic so they wouldn't learn awful lessons from them...?)". Hopefully enough talking about it, blogging about it, etc might eventually get enough people in the industry to realize this.


(All of that is aside from the huge Dox/death-threat trolls issue, which is a different issue more related to gamer/web culture than media companies in many regards)

[QuickTidal]

Illuyankas, on 09 January 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Can you play Dead of Alive Beach Volleyball one handed? If not, why wouldn't they do that?

Sadly, I can attest to the fact that you CAN play it one-handed. Back when it came out, my roommate at the time bought it because she liked the DoA games and thought it would be fun. Then as we sat playing it for the first hour or so we quickly established the fact that the game was designed to be pretty much played one-handed. We laughed about it at the time, but in hindsight it's a horrible game that should not have been made...or at least not marketed as anything but what it was... gaming porn crafted for masturbation.

[Studlock]

Apt response is so full of just straight up uninformed knowledge about feminism I don't really think it worth unpacking. I know this will put me in camp who 'can't handle arguments' or whatever but I suspect to argue both parties have to at least have general knowledge of the topics being discussed. If you're utterly ignorant of basics tenants of social science why would anyone trying to have a serious discussion on the subject take your opinion seriously. Identity is important not because you yourself identify with whatever category (which may be personally important, for myself I identify strongly with my heritage as a form of anti-racism resistance) but because the world outside of you does, to suggest otherwise is objectify wrong as in against scientific consensus on the subject.

You know what's absurd about Lara Croft almost being raped? It's an abnormal rape, and hence is clearly used not to examine a topic which might legitimately trigger many people's PSTD but used for shock and drama. The majority of rapes happens in the home committed by individuals who the victims knows. Not to mention the over-representation of this kind rape in media warping are our own view of what is rape is (dramatic! Usually committed by strangers!). It's a deliberate spread of misinformation to create cheap thrills. It's rightly criticized.

You know why's its asburd to demand 'social realism' (which LOL--Jesus Christ) about hookers in a game that is literally a power fantasy? It creates a gross double standard in which all women must be dipicted as realistic' (which of course they aren't, there is an over-representation of stereotypical women in media compared to well drawn individuals) where as the three male main characters get to become angels of deconstruction without comment.

All in all your entire viewpoint is a uncritical acceptance of the status quo (besides the incredibly vague 'games need better stories!'--which great, thanks for stating a commonly held belief, how does one do so? This is the question at the heart of this debate. Do we rely on old stereotypes that are actively damaging to women, or do we make better female, or better non-white, or better gay characters? Apparently you chose the first opinion) which is great but it's still the status quo which isn't great for a great many people.

Also many feminists fucking adore Bayonetta, she's clearly expressing her own comfort with her body and sexuality for herself and not 1) a male character, or even worst 2) the male gamers. It's a important character point. Many sex-positive feminist love that. But you must of have missed the week in your Internet School of Feminism class.