[tiam]

 gandrin, on 17 July 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Deadsmell said:

1362585961[/url]' post='1037174']
Hey,

The High King in this book, they are not talking about Kallor right? He cant be THAT old... right?

Though I remember there was a line where Kallor said he walked the world when Imass were but children.

Actually I thought something completely different. Why not dessembelackis? Or was that after Kallor?

I think in MOI prologue there is reference to a growing human empire across the sea likely the HFE. Though Dessim might not have been its first and only emperor he could have simply been the last.

 Illuyankas, on 17 July 2013 - 11:52 PM, said:

He walked this land while the Imass of the Second Ritual were children, maybe.

This Second ritual thing does annoy me but im not sure why. In any case I dont think that would work as a statement though it is ofcourse possible. 'I walked this land when the really young recent Imass were children' doesnt have the same ring to it.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

After reading the prologue of MOI again, its clear that K'rul refers to Kallor as mortal human. That reference in the prologue to the HFE is that it had risen, and Kallor's reference to his being around when the Imass were as children is not unthinkable, when you consider that it implies that the Imass were in the dawn of their existence. Do we have to be convinced that the Imass were the progenitors of humans? Maybe what are modern humans on Malazan times are interbred of the various species that came before, and perhaps Kallor was the first tyrant king of the first line of humans, kind of an Adam-type figure. Humans could have risen at the same time as the Imass, or even before.

This seems to play into the idea of Humans rising as Tyrants. In tCG when the three remaining pure FAs are about to do battle with the Bonehunters near the end, they contemplate Tavore as being a possible "charismatic tyrant", rising "from the multitude of mediocrity that is humanity a single person of extraordinary vision conjoined with the will to achieve that vision, who presents a most formidable presence. One to shape the course of history." There has to be a first of these. And they don't necessarily have to be malicious or tyrannical in the traditional sense to have that title, although blood worship would certainly be a part things and sacrifice is most likely the source of the tyrant's power. This would somewhat play on the trope of Tolkien's Edain (sp), an original, superior line of humans, and Kallor and Serap are akin to Beren and Luthien. Dessimbelackis appears to be something like the a tyrant of that line too, and there's no reason to think that Kallor isn't the first Human to rise and eventually lead to Dessimbelackis and the HFE, which is somewhat like Numenor.

Additionally, the references in FoD to the High King are that he "built a ship", which is bad news that staggers Draconus (I'm sure we will find out why), and then Errastas and Setch talking about the High Kingdom's borders being closed to the Azathanai, and that there are "hidden truths" to the High kingdom. Neither of these references necessitate The High King being an Azathanai, nor do they rule out Kallor being the High King. Are those hidden truths, perhaps, blood worship?

The fact is, even back in MoI prologue the Azathanai understand Kallor's motive:

Quote

What of Kallor? Draconus enquired. What of this ... this creature?
We mark him, K’rul replied. We know his deepest desire, do we not?
And the span of his life?
Long, my friends.

If this takes place after his Meeting with Krin Ne Fant and the Liosan in TCG then his deepest desire is to be dead. They didn't kill him. His anger over the loss of Serap led to his mistreatment of his people, his people call down the Crippled Down, he shatters and destorys Korel but not Jacaruku or Kallor, so Kallor starts mistreating and enslaving his people destroys all his people, thus bringing K'rul into the picture. All K'rul was going to do was "snap the chains" , but soon learned Kallor killed everyone. He was probably even hoping the three elders would kill him then, and the destruction of his people was his method of invoking just that. I think Kallor in FoD liked life and loved Serap. But once she died, that was it, and he became the definitive tyrant, raising and destroying empires over and over again, as an extension of his self-hatred and desire to end his life, but not being able to die. All K'rul's curse did was age his body, as has been said before.

Forgive the length and rambling nature of this, but the three instances are related, as well as some stuff that we see in B&B, and I'm attempting to piece all the parts of this tragic and complicated character together.

[nacht]

Excellent work. Kudos.

 Spoilsport Stonny, on 01 August 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

After reading the prologue of MOI again, its clear that K'rul refers to Kallor as mortal human. That reference in the prologue to the HFE is that it had risen, and Kallor's reference to his being around when the Imass were as children is not unthinkable, when you consider that it implies that the Imass were in the dawn of their existence. Do we have to be convinced that the Imass were the progenitors of humans? Maybe what are modern humans on Malazan times are interbred of the various species that came before, and perhaps Kallor was the first tyrant king of the first line of humans, kind of an Adam-type figure. Humans could have risen at the same time as the Imass, or even before.

Historically, the Neanderthals (who the Imass are based on) were coexistent with Cromagnons (humans). They might have had a common ancestor but ultimately they were different and actually occupied different areas of the world. When the species contacted each other, the Neanderthals ended up being wiped out. It is possible that both the Imass and Humans originated separately from the Eresal.

Quote

This seems to play into the idea of Humans rising as Tyrants. In tCG when the three remaining pure FAs are about to do battle with the Bonehunters near the end, they contemplate Tavore as being a possible "charismatic tyrant", rising "from the multitude of mediocrity that is humanity a single person of extraordinary vision conjoined with the will to achieve that vision, who presents a most formidable presence. One to shape the course of history." There has to be a first of these. And they don't necessarily have to be malicious or tyrannical in the traditional sense to have that title, although blood worship would certainly be a part things and sacrifice is most likely the source of the tyrant's power. This would somewhat play on the trope of Tolkien's Edain (sp), an original, superior line of humans, and Kallor and Serap are akin to Beren and Luthien. Dessimbelackis appears to be something like the a tyrant of that line too, and there's no reason to think that Kallor isn't the first Human to rise and eventually lead to Dessimbelackis and the HFE, which is somewhat like Numenor.

This is an excellent link and the probably what the authors mean by a "tyrant".
Is it possible that Kallor was aware of the "Century Candles" even then and was extending his human life using those.

Quote

Additionally, the references in FoD to the High King are that he "built a ship", which is bad news that staggers Draconus (I'm sure we will find out why), and then Errastas and Setch talking about the High Kingdom's borders being closed to the Azathanai, and that there are "hidden truths" to the High kingdom. Neither of these references necessitate The High King being an Azathanai, nor do they rule out Kallor being the High King. Are those hidden truths, perhaps, blood worship?

Also, the reference to a "ship" always seemed to me a bit incongruous. Considering the technological and cultural achievements (weaponry, war tactics, politicking, language) of those times, a "shocked" reaction seems inappropriate.
I am thinking that the "ship" might actually be a space ship capable of dimensional/space/warren travel.

Quote

The fact is, even back in MoI prologue the Azathanai understand Kallor's motive:

What of Kallor? Draconus enquired. What of this ... this creature?
We mark him, K'rul replied. We know his deepest desire, do we not?
And the span of his life?
Long, my friends.

If this takes place after his Meeting with Krin Ne Fant and the Liosan in TCG then his deepest desire is to be dead. They didn't kill him. His anger over the loss of Serap led to his mistreatment of his people, his people call down the Crippled Down, he shatters and destorys Korel but not Jacaruku or Kallor, so Kallor starts mistreating and enslaving his people destroys all his people, thus bringing K'rul into the picture. All K'rul was going to do was "snap the chains" , but soon learned Kallor killed everyone. He was probably even hoping the three elders would kill him then, and the destruction of his people was his method of invoking just that. I think Kallor in FoD liked life and loved Serap. But once she died, that was it, and he became the definitive tyrant, raising and destroying empires over and over again, as an extension of his self-hatred and desire to end his life, but not being able to die. All K'rul's curse did was age his body, as has been said before.

I never thought of it this way but it is very possible.
So the Liosan have their own kingdom now which means it happens after the "Fall of Light" (and creation of Saranas) but before Draconus gets dragnipured by Rake

This post has been edited by nacht: 01 August 2013 - 07:28 PM

[Abyss]

I suppose Kallor could be a Dog Runner who got civilized, as opposed to an Az'i.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

The thing about building the ship could be like the human race was a contained experiment and now they have grown civilized enough to build a giant sturdy ship to sail over to their realm, and Draconus is all "holy shit. They're smart. And they're gonna fuck shit up with their short lives and bloodlust."

The whole "Whither fled Mael?" thing, which is one of my favorite lines with how short it is and how much it says, or rather suggests; could mean that Mael doesn't quite control the seas, or just has decided to exert more control.

I think the more serious aspect is this. Kallor is the High king of a race of humans, the first ever. They worship him with blood sacrifice. Humans dont worship azathanai yet. Olar Ethil has worshippers. Look what they did to her. Once humans discover the Azathanai, then they begin to worship them because of their power. Blood worship. Up until that point, errastas sees the power of blood first. Draconus is outraged. Soon they all have human worshipers, and humans start to thrive, and then Kruls bargain. Its a bargain FOR the azathanai.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 02 August 2013 - 02:36 AM

[nacht]

 Spoilsport Stonny, on 02 August 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

The thing about building the ship could be like the human race was a contained experiment and now they have grown civilized enough to build a giant sturdy ship to sail over to their realm, and Draconus is all "holy shit. They're smart. And they're gonna fuck shit up with their short lives and bloodlust."

This is possible. Kharkanas being the cradle of civilization, The jheleck being a lot less civilized. The Dog runners being simpletons. In HoC, the humans are presented as being subservient to dogs.

Quote

I think the more serious aspect is this. Kallor is the High king of a race of humans, the first ever. They worship him with blood sacrifice. Humans dont worship azathanai yet. Olar Ethil has worshippers. Look what they did to her. Once humans discover the Azathanai, then they begin to worship them because of their power. Blood worship. Up until that point, errastas sees the power of blood first. Draconus is outraged. Soon they all have human worshipers, and humans start to thrive, and then Kruls bargain. Its a bargain FOR the azathanai.

Was it clearly stated somewhere that the High King was worshipped with blood sacrifice?

[Spoilsport Stonny]

No, not at all. I am just thinking that that's the source of his power long ago.

However:

Blood and Bone spoiler!!! Do not open if you haven't read Blood and Bone!!!!

Spoiler

The Shaduwam, which I believe are loyal to Kallor, do make blood sacrifice:

Quote

The priest drew himself up tall: easily as disdainful of them as they of him. 'Gold and jewels are as coloured dust and dirt to us. Our price is one quarter of all captives.'
'Blood rites!' Ganell spat. 'Unholy sacrifice!'
'Never!' Andanii swore, and she yanked her belt knife from the table.

There is of course Kallor's POV on the shaduwam:

Quote

'What are the shaduwam to me?' he repeated, musing. He leaned back against the table, crossing his arms. 'They are as nothing to me. I would not care one whit should they all be swept from the face of the earth tomorrow. Is that enough of an answer for you, my prince?'

and this:

Quote

What could the damned Warleader hope to gain from all this? He could not possibly hope to rule here. Nor among the Adwami. What was his purpose – beyond the sowing of chaos and destruction? No doubt such was the goal of the shaduwam: the eradication of their rivals. But what of this old traitor general – if that was what he was. Mere vengeance? All this blood merely to wipe out the sting of some thwarted or blocked ambition?

and this:

Quote

The Warleader’s thick brows rose. ‘Ahh,’ he breathed. ‘I understand. All she gave me, you say. She gave me a great deal of her time, that is true.’ He pointed to the tall tankard of fluids the priests were mixing. ‘Now!’ he ordered. ‘We will do this now.’
‘But … my lord …’ one objected. ‘You must prepare further.’
‘Do you question me?’
The priest fell to his knees. ‘Forgive me, lord.’
The Warleader gestured impatiently for the drink. Another of the shaduwam handed it to him. He drank it in a long series of swallows, wiped the spilled thick dark fluids from his beard. He regarded Jatal once again with his dead flat eyes. ‘She encouraged me to talk – to tell stories. And I did. More than I ought to have. I was perhaps pleased by her attentions though I certainly knew better. And from listening to me all those evenings your princess came closest of anyone to grasping a certain secret. One not even she could believe. One she dared not pass on to anyone – not even to you. Especially not to you.’

Are the shaduwam practicioners of Agon making blood sacrifices for Kallor? Probably not at this point, but its interesting that they are aligned with Kallor and likely native to Jacaruku. Maybe they are the remnants of the culture that did make blood Sacrifice in the name of the High King.

This post has been edited by Spoilsport Stonny: 02 August 2013 - 02:39 PM

[Abyss]

The last quote is certainly suggestive of blood being involved.

We know the century candles involve human sacrifice, no reason to think that any other ritual Kallor follows to keep himself alive and powerful would be any less brutal.

That would also support the notion of Kallor as Az'i, since at some point blood sacrifice becomes central to the worship of at least some of them, Krul, Mael and Draconus that we know of.

[tiam]

 Abyss, on 02 August 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

The last quote is certainly suggestive of blood being involved.

We know the century candles involve human sacrifice, no reason to think that any other ritual Kallor follows to keep himself alive and powerful would be any less brutal.

That would also support the notion of Kallor as Az'i, since at some point blood sacrifice becomes central to the worship of at least some of them, Krul, Mael and Draconus that we know of.

Whos to say he doesnt become an Azathanai through the machinations of the Errant? We know you can become one and if hes on the same level as pre gift MD in terms of worship this could be what Errastas provides the high king.

[Abyss]

 Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 02 August 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 02 August 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

The last quote is certainly suggestive of blood being involved.

We know the century candles involve human sacrifice, no reason to think that any other ritual Kallor follows to keep himself alive and powerful would be any less brutal.

That would also support the notion of Kallor as Az'i, since at some point blood sacrifice becomes central to the worship of at least some of them, Krul, Mael and Draconus that we know of.

Whos to say he doesnt become an Azathanai through the machinations of the Errant? We know you can become one and if hes on the same level as pre gift MD in terms of worship this could be what Errastas provides the high king.

I should clarify "at some point blood sacrifice becomes central to the worship of at least some of them who fall into the 'Elder God' category'.

Because it seems that while virtually anyone can become an Elder God, Azathanii are born. So @JCvTiam i assume your suggestion the Errant influence Kallor's ascension somehow, since he was either born Az'i or he wasn't.

That all said, i don't think we've ever seen anything to link Kallor to the Errant. Are you ref'ing something specific?

[NefaraisBredd]

Ya, it is as everyone.says- Kallor was THE original gangsta. You know you are a bad mofo when three of.the.most powerful gods in all existence feel compelled to destroy him and actually need each other's help to do so! He never ascends yet he is always at 'convergences' and he ain't afraid of Rake or Brood. Kallor invented scorched earth policy and made it necessary for.the gods to hide the wounded earth in another dimension.

[NefaraisBredd]

No doubt Kallor.had worshippers at some.point.

[worry]

@Abyss, to answer your weeks' old question, the Errant is heading towards "the High King" as of the end of this book, so I think Tiam is being a bit speculative of what comes next.

@NB, that's actually probably true; Kallor likely had worshipers multiple times in his career. He will never reach Godhood though, as part of the curse, or the elements of Ascension that derive from the Warrens. He's got alchemy and occasionally hops rides on other people's sorcery/high level technology, but will certainly never have personal access to Warrens that aren't loaned to him (like TCG's access to chaos).

[Tattersail_]

Curses must be able to fade. Look at Draconus, K'rul and Nightchill.

[NefaraisBredd]

 worry, on 27 August 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

@Abyss, to answer your weeks' old question, the Errant is heading towards "the High King" as of the end of this book, so I think Tiam is being a bit speculative of what comes next.

@NB, that's actually probably true; Kallor likely had worshipers multiple times in his career. He will never reach Godhood though, as part of the curse, or the elements of Ascension that derive from the Warrens. He's got alchemy and occasionally hops rides on other people's sorcery/high level technology, but will certainly never have personal access to Warrens that aren't loaned to him (like TCG's access to chaos).

Ya, the century candles are very cool alchemy! Kallor fascinates me-his rage has become (almost) a warren of.its own. Potent and a palpable force when he blows a gasket.

[Siergiej]

Quote

He never ascends yet he is always at 'convergences' and he ain't afraid of Rake or Brood.

He is so unafraid, that he never crossed blades with any of them. At the siege of Coral he conveniently waited for anyone he suspected of having any real power to go fighting, so he could kill Silverfox. And even then, after being confronted with Tayschrenn, who had to deal with poisoned warrens, Kallor ran away screaming like a little girl. As awesome as he is, High King knows fear very well.

[Gothos]

 Siergiej, on 27 August 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Quote

He never ascends yet he is always at 'convergences' and he ain't afraid of Rake or Brood.

He is so unafraid, that he never crossed blades with any of them. At the siege of Coral he conveniently waited for anyone he suspected of having any real power to go fighting, so he could kill Silverfox. And even then, after being confronted with Tayschrenn, who had to deal with poisoned warrens, Kallor ran away screaming like a little girl. As awesome as he is, High King knows fear very well.

Only a fool knows no fear. To turn away from a fight he cannot possibly win nor gain anything from losing, doesn't make you a little girl.
Makes me think, though - if he cannot die, what would happen to him if he was, say, hit on the head by Brood's hammer?

[Abyss]

 Gothos, on 27 August 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

... if he cannot die, what would happen to him if he was, say, hit on the head by Brood's hammer?

He can die. Just not easily.

[NefaraisBredd]

 Gothos, on 27 August 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

 Siergiej, on 27 August 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

Quote

He never ascends yet he is always at 'convergences' and he ain't afraid of Rake or Brood.

He is so unafraid, that he never crossed blades with any of them. At the siege of Coral he conveniently waited for anyone he suspected of having any real power to go fighting, so he could kill Silverfox. And even then, after being confronted with Tayschrenn, who had to deal with poisoned warrens, Kallor ran away screaming like a little girl. As awesome as he is, High King knows fear very well.

Only a fool knows no fear. To turn away from a fight he cannot possibly win nor gain anything from losing, doesn't make you a little girl.
Makes me think, though - if he cannot die, what would happen to him if he was, say, hit on the head by Brood's hammer?

Of course he has no fear-he is cursed to live forever. Also, Kallor is an opportunist and a wily old bugger. So, if he cannot die, why would he be afraid of Rake or Brood? I agree that any sane individual is prone to fear, but whoever said Kallor was sane? A definition of insanity-repetition of patterns of thought and behaviour with no beneficial outcomes. He knows he will never ascend and he knows that all he works to build will turn against him yet he persists.

[NefaraisBredd]

 Abyss, on 27 August 2013 - 02:23 PM, said:

 Gothos, on 27 August 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

... if he cannot die, what would happen to him if he was, say, hit on the head by Brood's hammer?

He can die. Just not easily.

Wasn't.one of the curses that he will never die?