[Defiance]

Cause, on 26 February 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

worrywort, on 26 February 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

It seems to be his goal, at least as far back as the flashback of his visit to the Liosan throne room. in TCG.

Please refresh my memory I cant remember this. Anyone have an idea why he cant kill himself?

@Acorn- I had a different reference but it was not clean

I imagine that not being able to kill himself is part of the Elder Gods' curse. Would seem kind of contradictory to the curse they placed on him if he could just slit his own throat and not have to deal with it.

Or he was touched by Jacob. Who really knows.

[tiam]

Stalking Stonny, on 21 February 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

I see your point, but am pivoting on the axis of them both being different writers and having different styles. Me saying I have a feeling doesnt mean it will happen and even if it does, it could still be something that doesn't really make a whole hell of a lot of sense or just come from nowhere. Its interesting because every time ICE has a new book come out, many people, upon finishing it, think "Well maybe he'll explain all the stuff in the next book." And I can understand how that is frustrating. And I really still think the T'riss/Ardata plot was hard to sink into, not really giving a fuck about Ardata or her daughter. I also hated the comic demise of the Tyrant in OST, despite how fun it was to read at the time, and still want to know about the Stormriders.

I think what frustrates people the most is that ICE and SE to a lesser extent are more into telling the story, and dont care about our questions regarding lack of clarity on many of their main plot devices and characters, and are willing to sacrifice expectations for telling the story, and since ICE's reasons for how things happen in his stories can sometimes be...not too good, and the characters sometimes seem unfinished for no reason at all, it leaves sour taste.

I like ICE's stories because they are set in the Malaz world. I don't think I would really like them if I didn't have past histories of the characters and the world. Kind of like the Star Wars prequels, but nowhere near as bad.

I agree they both compromise the integrity of their universe for the sake of story.

As for the demise of the Tyrant, we all know ICE is contractually obliged by his publishers to have powerful beings like Ryllandaras and the Tyrant be killed of by dancing, so he can have his movie tie in 'OST- Step up 2 the streets'

Salt-Man Z, on 21 February 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 21 February 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

I never said I was going to jump ship nor was I questioning ICEs ability as a writer.

That section wasn't directed at you; I tried to separate it from my response to your quote with a dividing line, sorry if that wasn't clearer. It was more toward the OP and just my thoughts in general.

I get what you're saying about not coming back to events/locations in his books; my issue was more with the claim that they're standalone. Maybe "self-contained"? Semantics, I suppose. Either way, it seems clear to me that ICE has for five books now been building up to the sixth. The Crimson Guard plot has been building from RotCG through SW and BaB and will presumably culminate in Assail. The Stormriders have shown up in every book so far I think, barring OST; it would not shock me if they played some role in Assail. ICE isn't revisiting locales like SE's series did, instead I think most of his threads are being followed from one location to the next, and will all wind up in the same place at the end. Or at least, that's my fervent hope.

Ah I see. I am waiting for Assail with baited breath.

Self contained/standalone is sematics maybe and yes ICE is building upto something with the Guard but what about the other points? Say the Storm Riders are mentioned or even completely demistified in Assail. I dont think you can say it would not have made more sense and make SW alot more understandable if we saw it earlier? Unless it vitally important to Assail, which tbh seems unlikely, why not spill some information on either Greymane or the Storm Riders in a book solely dedicated to them?

I agree completely and have the same 'fervent hope' as you put it but after three books of vague question dodging im losing hope that ICE can pull it off.

EDIT- Regarding why Kallor cant die/ kill himself, id say the curse of the EG of a mortal life unending is clearly the source. The fact that Kallor as a mortal might be as tired as the Imass and want release. Another reason might be a purely practical one in that death and ascendency are very intertwined in the books with death usually preceding ascension that maybe this is the practicality of the curse

This post has been edited by Jean-Claude Van tiam: 26 February 2013 - 08:03 PM

[worry]

It's not a personal reading, it's made clear in the text. Aparal Forge gleans that Kallor's motivation is suicide, that he's intentionally angering the Liosan, egging them on after he's already thrown his own sword to the ground, in an attempt to get cut down in a fight, and when Fant's father only tells him to be gone, Forge sees the disappointment in Kallor's face at being denied.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 26 February 2013 - 09:23 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

ah yes, i forgot that little scene. still, by the present day, he definitely seems less inclined to suicide, at least imo. perhaps this liosan woman was his only true love, and at that moment, he's absolutely prepared to die. kallor, even kallor in TtH, does not strike me as suicidal.

[worry]

He's both self-destructive and ambitious beyond measure. Leading up to TTH, the House of Chains gives him a new potential opportunity to break the curse. When he fails to get the throne, or Dragnipur, or anything else of value in Darujhistan, he falls back on Plan B which is suicide by Jade Strangers. I don't think BaB is out of sorts at all...he didn't grow during TTH, we got his POV as he added some new verses to the same old sad song.

[nacht]

worrywort, on 26 February 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

It's not a personal reading, it's made clear in the text. Aparal Forge gleans that Kallor's motivation is suicide, that he's intentionally angering the Liosan, egging them on after he's already thrown his own sword to the ground, in an attempt to get cut down in a fight, and when Fant's father only tells him to be gone, Forge sees the disappointment in Kallor's face at being denied.

@Worrywort.

I dont disagree that he was suicidal "at that point in time". I attributed that temporary feeling to grief after the loss of Serap.
Beyond that, he showed no signs of being a manic depressive hell bent on taking his life.
If that is the case, the question of why he can't kill himself is moot. (it's because he does not want to)

[worry]

I never said he was a manic depressive.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

Even if he were they didnt have psychoanalysis and behavioral science on wu. I think he was just really old and really tired of those kids on his lawn.

[nacht]

Stalking Stonny, on 27 February 2013 - 03:21 AM, said:

Even if he were they didnt have psychoanalysis and behavioral science on wu. I think he was just really old and really tired of those kids on his lawn.

Ha, Ha, nice and simple Really really old really really cranky guy. I guess that sums up Kallor's character

[Archsorceror]

My first post after years of silence and sadly, it is in dispair. I distincly felt that there was more than one author for this book because of the variable writing standard. At times, it evoked the epic, intense genius of previous books, specifically, the Gothos/Osserc exchanges. Imagine, the parts in the book where the characters do/say the least is most gripping. Yet at other times, I thought I was reading something from a good secondary-school student. Nearly everything about that ridiculous Thaumaturg campaign was just .... *sigh!*....SOOO disappointingly and badly written...... and using 'Mr.' and 'Miss' in wu?? Come on.....since when?

Other than the seemingly aimless plot lines, I found the writing style to be terribly disappointing. Nothing except gothos and Osserc made me feel any sense of wonder. ROTCG does stand out as ICE's only worthy novel. In my humble view, they've just gotten steadily worse since and this is just baaaaad man. If I buy any more books it'll be just out of blind loyalty to the previous efforts or curiosity as to whether he can redeem himself but the zeal and passion are gone from me.

[Vaddon Ra]

I really liked where it was going, I just didn't like the end much. I thought Kallor's story was really good but I felt we saw too little of him. He goes back, conquers a city....then runs away and ends up stabbing Jatal and not learning... Which I totally get, but I thought we'd see more of who he was and his relationships to the 9 mages.
I thought Murk and Sour were fun and for the simple fact that in the end it was so hopeless I thought the army of righteous chastisement was actually really funny
I get the whole Skinner thing....However, and this is my big problem with this book, I have been waiting, with all of you, for several years now, for the seguleh Second to kill Skinner.... I was so sure that was the set up...I really was. I loved how it tied in with the end of Stonewielder, with Iron Bars raging... and I genuinely though... ooooh.... Crimson Guard uber war is about to happen... And I got to it and I waited...Cowl turned up, And....he just gets munched by some tiny spiders......

Where's the big fight...the convergence...where's Iron Bars....but more importantly and unforgivably WHERE'S THE SEGULEH SECOND???????????????!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!??!!?!?
He now has no point.... at all in life, well death, but you know.

That actually really upset me, because I thought the Crimson Guard just going... ohno!!! Skinner Dead!! Oh... Hey, Kazz let's be BFF's! was a right sell out.

I would have also been happier with a crimson guard civil war coinciding with ardata and triss and kallor doing stuff on the country in one big convergence... lots of cool things happening but the ending really missed the mark and I found myself just going, meh!
Which I've decided shouldn't happen with Malazan books, ever.

So yeah, I kinda loved it up until the moment I realised the finale was coming and it really wasn't going to be up to much.

Shame really, cos I preferred it's narrative and feel to OST and I cared for the characters, old and new, more than nearly everyone in SW except Greymane and Iron Bars... So really, yeah... a bit sad

I hope he really works hard on Assail. Cos that's the duel finale with TCG, so.... well, I kinda wish they'd just write the damn thing together XD

[nacht]

Vaddon Ra, on 04 March 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

I really liked where it was going, I just didn't like the end much. I thought Kallor's story was really good but I felt we saw too little of him. He goes back, conquers a city....then runs away and ends up stabbing Jatal and not learning... Which I totally get, but I thought we'd see more of who he was and his relationships to the 9 mages.
I thought Murk and Sour were fun and for the simple fact that in the end it was so hopeless I thought the army of righteous chastisement was actually really funny
I get the whole Skinner thing....However, and this is my big problem with this book, I have been waiting, with all of you, for several years now, for the seguleh Second to kill Skinner.... I was so sure that was the set up...I really was. I loved how it tied in with the end of Stonewielder, with Iron Bars raging... and I genuinely though... ooooh.... Crimson Guard uber war is about to happen... And I got to it and I waited...Cowl turned up, And....he just gets munched by some tiny spiders......

Where's the big fight...the convergence...where's Iron Bars....but more importantly and unforgivably WHERE'S THE SEGULEH SECOND???????????????!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!?!??!!?!?
He now has no point.... at all in life, well death, but you know.

That actually really upset me, because I thought the Crimson Guard just going... ohno!!! Skinner Dead!! Oh... Hey, Kazz let's be BFF's! was a right sell out.

I would have also been happier with a crimson guard civil war coinciding with ardata and triss and kallor doing stuff on the country in one big convergence... lots of cool things happening but the ending really missed the mark and I found myself just going, meh!
Which I've decided shouldn't happen with Malazan books, ever.

So yeah, I kinda loved it up until the moment I realised the finale was coming and it really wasn't going to be up to much.

Shame really, cos I preferred it's narrative and feel to OST and I cared for the characters, old and new, more than nearly everyone in SW except Greymane and Iron Bars... So really, yeah... a bit sad

I hope he really works hard on Assail. Cos that's the duel finale with TCG, so.... well, I kinda wish they'd just write the damn thing together XD

I thought that the army of righteous chastisement thread was pretty funny too until the end when the joke ended up being on us :-)
But the whole man vs nature and man gets butt kicked was cool. Himatan was very well done..

This post has been edited by nacht: 04 March 2013 - 07:27 PM

[Seiko]

I still see Skinner showing up in Assail, like others pointed out with the brethren (Stoop?) showing up and helping Shimmer. Maybe the brethren react differently when there.

We can't have been robbed of a Seguleh Second/Iron Bars vs Skinner showdown. It would have even been fine if he had turned up shortly after Skinner's death, whining about being denied his revenge and what not. But he seems to have just been forgotten. That said, I did enjoy the irony and unexpected demise of Skinner. It was incredibly lame how the aftermath with the Guard rejoining Kazz was handled, though. Agreed.

Cowl has to play a part in Assail. At this point he's pretty much the only interesting member of the Crimson Guard, which is a little worrying.

This post has been edited by Seiko: 04 March 2013 - 07:37 PM

[nacht]

Seiko, on 04 March 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

I still see Skinner showing up in Assail, like others pointed out with the brethren (Stoop?) showing up and helping Shimmer. Maybe the brethren react differently when there.

We can't have been robbed of a Seguleh Second/Iron Bars vs Skinner showdown. It would have even been fine if he had turned up shortly after Skinner's death, whining about being denied his revenge and what not. But he seems to have just been forgotten. That said, I did enjoy the irony and unexpected demise of Skinner. It was incredibly lame how the aftermath with the Guard rejoining Kazz was handled, though. Agreed.

Cowl has to play a part in Assail. At this point he's pretty much the only interesting member of the Crimson Guard, which is a little worrying.

Dont fuck with Ardata... I think that was the message that I got loud and clear. Skinner pissed off one too many powerful people. Here was this arrogant guy wearing the gift that QoW gave him and he refused to give it back when she asked him politely. It was delicious delicious delicious...

So they built up this storyline with Skinner and then sank it. If anything, these authors have shown themselves to be trope twisters of the extreme sort. Oh you want badassery between two bad ass guys. Fuck that, is what they said.

[worry]

Is Jhess an avatar of Ardata?

[Cause]

nacht, on 05 March 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

Seiko, on 04 March 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

I still see Skinner showing up in Assail, like others pointed out with the brethren (Stoop?) showing up and helping Shimmer. Maybe the brethren react differently when there.

We can't have been robbed of a Seguleh Second/Iron Bars vs Skinner showdown. It would have even been fine if he had turned up shortly after Skinner's death, whining about being denied his revenge and what not. But he seems to have just been forgotten. That said, I did enjoy the irony and unexpected demise of Skinner. It was incredibly lame how the aftermath with the Guard rejoining Kazz was handled, though. Agreed.

Cowl has to play a part in Assail. At this point he's pretty much the only interesting member of the Crimson Guard, which is a little worrying.

Dont fuck with Ardata... I think that was the message that I got loud and clear. Skinner pissed off one too many powerful people. Here was this arrogant guy wearing the gift that QoW gave him and he refused to give it back when she asked him politely. It was delicious delicious delicious...

So they built up this storyline with Skinner and then sank it. If anything, these authors have shown themselves to be trope twisters of the extreme sort. Oh you want badassery between two bad ass guys. Fuck that, is what they said.

Its not trope inversion unless the delivery of it is as good as the alternative or at least interesting. To just go 'huh, you fools expected this story to matter, this book to matter! Fools! Skinner dies!' is bad storytelling. Endless trope inversion has become their trope and each time they do it its less interesting and less satisfying.

When Iktovian in MoI stopped the zombie Imass and Zombie Chemalle from having the greatest fight since WWII it was a trope inversion, or at least it was against almost all readers expectations. Still while I was denied a fight I would have loved to read I got a scene that was as good, I would even say better. Iktovian collapsing 'and now I am done' is iconic. The death of skinner and the entire ending to BaB is just unsatisfying and empty.

[nacht]

Cause, on 05 March 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

nacht, on 05 March 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

Seiko, on 04 March 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

I still see Skinner showing up in Assail, like others pointed out with the brethren (Stoop?) showing up and helping Shimmer. Maybe the brethren react differently when there.

We can't have been robbed of a Seguleh Second/Iron Bars vs Skinner showdown. It would have even been fine if he had turned up shortly after Skinner's death, whining about being denied his revenge and what not. But he seems to have just been forgotten. That said, I did enjoy the irony and unexpected demise of Skinner. It was incredibly lame how the aftermath with the Guard rejoining Kazz was handled, though. Agreed.

Cowl has to play a part in Assail. At this point he's pretty much the only interesting member of the Crimson Guard, which is a little worrying.

Dont fuck with Ardata... I think that was the message that I got loud and clear. Skinner pissed off one too many powerful people. Here was this arrogant guy wearing the gift that QoW gave him and he refused to give it back when she asked him politely. It was delicious delicious delicious...

So they built up this storyline with Skinner and then sank it. If anything, these authors have shown themselves to be trope twisters of the extreme sort. Oh you want badassery between two bad ass guys. Fuck that, is what they said.

Its not trope inversion unless the delivery of it is as good as the alternative or at least interesting. To just go 'huh, you fools expected this story to matter, this book to matter! Fools! Skinner dies!' is bad storytelling. Endless trope inversion has become their trope and each time they do it its less interesting and less satisfying.

When Iktovian in MoI stopped the zombie Imass and Zombie Chemalle from having the greatest fight since WWII it was a trope inversion, or at least it was against almost all readers expectations. Still while I was denied a fight I would have loved to read I got a scene that was as good, I would even say better. Iktovian collapsing 'and now I am done' is iconic. The death of skinner and the entire ending to BaB is just unsatisfying and empty.

@Cause, you make a good point regarding how tropes should be inverted/twisted and how the alternative should be even more mindblowing.

To me, sword fights are not great reading material. Sure they look great in movies and I myself am a huge Samurai chambara genre movie fan but even in those movies, the fights last a short time. I often play them in slow motion but still it is hard for me understand what the heck is going on. Intrigue, surprise and complex plots have a lot more value in books. I perhaps misunderstood the reason why people are pissed off at the Skinner story line. Maybe the real problem is not that there was no epic badass fight involving Skinner, Seguleh 2nd and Iron Bars but that the storyline was disposed quickly. Still, in terms of surprise, this was quite effective. I really really did not expect the armor to be made of spiders and after protecting the wearer through a lot of badshit would turn on him in a blink and eat him up on one command by Ardata. In terms of sheer creativity, i thought it was brilliant. After this, my respect for Ardata (and Azathanai in general) went up by many degrees.

I find that ICE is very very effective in laying out an environment. In Stonewielder, even after these many days of reading it, I can easily visualize the Stormwall, Hiam, the discipline of the Stormgaurd and Bars screaming like hell. Similary in BaB, the jungle setting was amazing as people fight through it. Even the boat ride with Shimmer and K'azz reminded me of a movie called "Aguirre,the Wrath of God". That movie was heavy on mood and it seemed that the insanity would spread to me. I could feel the same craziness in this boat ride.

There are some justifiable ciriticisms, but I think that should be balanced by mentioning what was good about this book. If given a choice, I would rather reread this book than several other Author's books (for. ex. Sanderson's mistborn or Weeks Nigh Angel), but of course that is just one opinion. I dont think it is fair to an author to bash them up without presenting both sides. It is possible that you completely and totally dislike it but I would bet that in that case, you are in the fringe.

[Vaddon Ra]

i can accept that swordfights can be done badly, can be overdone etc etc... but still, some of the scenes seen, and then imagined have been such a joy.

Anomander/ dassem? joy

Mok/tool? joy

Karsa/rhulad/seguleh and anyone else? always great

I like the twists and turns malaz has offered, i really do. But this one seemed like such a big things to make a spectacular ending and it just went, poof!!, gone. Which is really disappointing. Sure if Bars and the 2nd didn't get their fight it's not the worst thing by any means...what was bad is that there was just, nothing... he's just there... and then, oops.... dead... let's get a campfire and snuggle and then go to assail.... Eh????

in ICE's previous books we have had some serious fighting... ROTCG greymane/skinner
Cowl/Topper
Dassem/skinner
Rylandarras/rell

see lots of fights, all great fun. This one not being there really saddened me

[nacht]

worrywort, on 05 March 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

Is Jhess an avatar of Ardata?

I don't remember her being active as a player. Just some mentions here and there. She might be a minor goddess in the same category as Ursto and Pinosel.
I think it is a good point that the same goddess can be worshiped as a different deity by different cultures.

[nacht]

Vaddon Ra, on 05 March 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

i can accept that swordfights can be done badly, can be overdone etc etc... but still, some of the scenes seen, and then imagined have been such a joy.

Anomander/ dassem? joy

Mok/tool? joy

Karsa/rhulad/seguleh and anyone else? always great

I like the twists and turns malaz has offered, i really do. But this one seemed like such a big things to make a spectacular ending and it just went, poof!!, gone. Which is really disappointing. Sure if Bars and the 2nd didn't get their fight it's not the worst thing by any means...what was bad is that there was just, nothing... he's just there... and then, oops.... dead... let's get a campfire and snuggle and then go to assail.... Eh????

in ICE's previous books we have had some serious fighting... ROTCG greymane/skinner
Cowl/Topper
Dassem/skinner
Rylandarras/rell

see lots of fights, all great fun. This one not being there really saddened me

Yeah, those were nice. Makes me almost reread RotCG :-) (but Ghelel and Toc storylines. Maybe not...)