[Cause]

Terez, on 21 January 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

Both Egwene and Faile dying? That would have been so much angry-young-male-idiot fan catharsis to be nauseating.

Perrin could have followed her to the grave and the whole couples live or die together would have been left in tact. Too much was seen of their futures for that to make sense though. Not sure who should have died but Egwene was the only Tier 1 character to do so. Made every other death feal cheap. Julian dies and who even noticed? His character has not been important for over six books. Huon was one of my favorites but again he is just a footnote character. The armies suffered 90% casualties at times which is monstrously horrendous but it had no impact. They are faceless. Such a death tole should have had an unbelievably strong punch.

[Illuyankas]

As cool as the outrigger novels could have been, I'd have been happy - well, not happy but you know what I mean - with Mat's fakeout cloud killing being real. And if you're worried about internet males being smug, Terez, don't. They're all asshat shitlords. BUT if you were still concerned, Mat's death could have crushed and negated any and all smug sphincters' senses of superiority if J&S had killed every main female character as well. Egwene, Mat and Faile for deaths would have been fine by me, for the end of the world. It's not like Faile post book 12 is the same character everyone got mad about before anyway.

Also I totally missed Juillin dying even on my reread, but I did see Uno surviving not just the one ambush I thought someone mentioned him dying in, but Demandred's big full circle intro in the Last Battle.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 21 January 2013 - 01:33 PM

[QuickTidal]

The best thing about AMOL is the fact that with it finished and me not ever thinking I'll need to re-read it...means that almost an entire shelf of book space will free itself up when I hawk the series to the used book store or drop it off at the local library.

[Terez]

Illuyankas, on 21 January 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

As cool as the outrigger novels could have been, I'd have been happy - well, not happy but you know what I mean - with Mat's fakeout cloud killing being real.

Not me; I've been hoping for years his immunity would come into play. I am not much of a death toll person; I don't feel like a certain number of main characters have to die for it to be a good story.

[Baco Xtath]

Terez, on 21 January 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

I am not much of a death toll person; I don't feel like a certain number of main characters have to die for it to be a good story.

Well thank God George R. R. Martin wasn't recruited to finish the series.

This post has been edited by Baco Xtath: 22 January 2013 - 02:47 AM

[jaysen]

So what the hell was with the sword that Rand gave to Tam?

[Terez]

It's Brandon's cameo, which Brandon wrote to be Justice (Artur Hawkwing's sword), which I'm quite unhappy about because it wasn't there for a reason. (Apparently it's allowed to put unloaded guns on the mantle in Act XII?)

[Cause]

Terez, on 22 January 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

It's Brandon's cameo, which Brandon wrote to be Justice (Artur Hawkwing's sword), which I'm quite unhappy about because it wasn't there for a reason. (Apparently it's allowed to put unloaded guns on the mantle in Act XII?)

That is the most egotistical and selfish thing I have ever read! Justice, Arthur Hawkwing's sword, Rand had taken to wearing it immediately and some nonsense about how it was his future and callandor was his past and then he just gives it away to his father and in reality it was a completely pointless thread in the books!All fantasy books have an unfortunate tendency to bloat but in a fourteen book series that was already drowning in story threads that would go nowhere, were not important, Sanderson did not know how to finish to add another just so his sword could be in the novels! #@#$

The question of whether novels are commercial products (made for readers) or art (belonging to the authors) is a tricky one but given that its not even his art to do something like that...

[Werthead]

Cause, on 22 January 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

That is the most egotistical and selfish thing I have ever read! Justice, Arthur Hawkwing's sword, Rand had taken to wearing it immediately and some nonsense about how it was his future and callandor was his past and then he just gives it away to his father and in reality it was a completely pointless thread in the books!All fantasy books have an unfortunate tendency to bloat but in a fourteen book series that was already drowning in story threads that would go nowhere, were not important, Sanderson did not know how to finish to add another just so his sword could be in the novels! #@#$

The question of whether novels are commercial products (made for readers) or art (belonging to the authors) is a tricky one but given that its not even his art to do something like that...

It his - partially - his art though. If Jordan had a mega-detailed outline which detailed everything down to what shoes everyone was wearing in each scene, and Brandon was merely hired to execute that outline, then him putting stuff like that in would indeed be inappropriate.

However, we know now that the notes left behind where very detailed in some respects and completely blank about other topics. Sanderson had to step up his role to a co-creator of material in these closing parts of the series and felt he had to also take ownership of the material in some fashion for that to be satisfying. The only ways he did that were to put in a sword and to increase the role of Androl somewhat (who was in RJ's materials, but with nowhere near as large a role), which were fairly minor. In particular, I really enjoyed the Androl/Pevara storyline and its concisenes.

If Kevin J. Anderson had taken over the series, then he'd have had robots and ninjas show up at the Last Battle, and he would have used RJ's closing chapter to wipe his arse before inserting a new scene revealing that the Creator is a computer programme, or something.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 22 January 2013 - 11:36 AM

[Cause]

Werthead, on 22 January 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

It his - partially - his art though. If Jordan had a mega-detailed outline which detailed everything down to what shoes everyone was wearing in each scene, and Brandon was merely hired to execute that outline, then him putting stuff like that in would indeed be inappropriate.

However, we know now that the notes left behind where very detailed in some respects and completely blank about other topics. Sanderson had to step up his role to a co-creator of material in these closing parts of the series and felt he had to also take ownership of the material in some fashion for that to be satisfying. The only ways he did that were to put in a sword and to increase the role of Androl somewhat (who was in RJ's materials, but with nowhere near as large a role), which were fairly minor. In particular, I really enjoyed the Androl/Pevara storyline and its concisenes.

If Kevin J. Anderson had taken over the series, then he'd have had robots and ninjas show up at the Last Battle, and he would have used RJ's closing chapter to wipe his arse before inserting a new scene revealing that the Creator is a computer programme, or something.

He already has his name as co-author on three books of the series, he already has Androl as you point out who he made his own and made him the tool to carry out certain tasks which needed to happen.I dislike it when Jordyne of the Tor shows up in aSoIaF its breaks my suspense and pulls me out of the novel and the fantasy setting that has been created, I forgive it because it is one throw away line, one throwaway character and the house of Tors bannerman and soldiers are not going to kill the other in the final book (They will never show up again at all), and its a hommage from one great author to another. I also disliked it when Rand is hiding in the kitchens of Camelyn palace and gives his name as Mr Underhill but again its throw away. To make a cameo of yourself in your own books (they already bear your name) and to have your cameo be an artifact of great significance to the lore of the story is an abuse. Also consider if Justice is the future and callandor is the past what is he saying? Brandon is the future and RJ is the past. I also hate it when fans win cameos in a series etc

I don't mean to be so critical, WoT has a huge place in my heart. I'm glad it was finished (we will never know what RJ would have written but we have to accept that), Im glad Brandon agreed to do it (if not him who) and a part of me is actually sad to realize instead of 3 WoT books we could be on book four of the way of kings instead. I still think what he did was an abuse of privilege however.

Did they finish WoT for the fans? For RJs legacy? Or to make money? Probably all three.

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 22 January 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

I also hate it when fans win cameos in a series etc

Tuckerization (as it is called) has been around since the 40's, and I see zip wrong with it because you usually can't tell who's being tuckerized as they have some affinity with the author that we don't know about.

I think the only time I was annoyed by it was when Pat got put into ADWD by Martin because he lost a football bet...that seemed...excessive...

But otherwise I never notice it.

[Cause]

QuickTidal, on 22 January 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Cause, on 22 January 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

I also hate it when fans win cameos in a series etc

Tuckerization (as it is called) has been around since the 40's, and I see zip wrong with it because you usually can't tell who's being tuckerized as they have some affinity with the author that we don't know about.

I think the only time I was annoyed by it was when Pat got put into ADWD by Martin because he lost a football bet...that seemed...excessive...

But otherwise I never notice it.

Yes that was one of the incidents I was recalling. Truth, I probably would not have noticed it or ever known about it if not for Pat posting on this forum. That said I believe Authors do have a responsibility to their readers and while the incident above is just silly fun for Martin and Pat to me I find it slightly insulting (not the best word but I cant think of a more appropriate one). Likewise I think Memory of light is filled with instance in which Brandon Sanderson is all but winking (breaking through the fourth wall) at some of the fansites on the web: fun for him, fun for some of the fans but I argue it weakens the book on the whole. When the king of Murrandy enters the story for the first time and Rand and every Ashaman get ready to kill him because he must be demandred stood out as one such moment. I think the wheel of time also had a massive competition and uses many fan names in the books.

An author cant but help have his real world influences end up in his books but I think fan competitions and bets and the like as you said excessive.

-Edit Actual Book Point
Did anyone else feel Lan chargind Demandred alone was a step back for his character thematically? He was once again one man alone. Also given the repeated talks he gave and then started to hear about responsibility to just suddenly see him on a horse charging demandred alone seemed out of place.

This post has been edited by Cause: 22 January 2013 - 07:08 PM

[Terez]

Werthead, on 22 January 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

If Jordan had a mega-detailed outline which detailed everything down to what shoes everyone was wearing in each scene, and Brandon was merely hired to execute that outline, then him putting stuff like that in would indeed be inappropriate.

I don't mind the cameo; what I mind is that he made his cameo Justice, one of the most legendary swords in the series, and then had it no role in the plot whatsoever. Whether or not it's appropriate, it's bad storytelling. And then he went and wrote in a use for RJ's cameo because fans complained no one was using it! (And RJ's cameo was, while intriguing as a plot toy, hardly a legendary object.)

Werthead, on 22 January 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

However, we know now that the notes left behind where very detailed in some respects and completely blank about other topics. Sanderson had to step up his role to a co-creator of material in these closing parts of the series and felt he had to also take ownership of the material in some fashion for that to be satisfying. The only ways he did that were to put in a sword and to increase the role of Androl somewhat (who was in RJ's materials, but with nowhere near as large a role), which were fairly minor.

Now that just isn't true. And while ownership is indeed something that was necessary for Brandon to be able to fill in holes, that doesn't mean that he didn't have a responsibility to the source material. Extra-canon attempts like this one (which you see a lot more in comics and anime) have always stood on their own merits; no one gets a bye because the irritants are just, to an extent, expected, and just because others would have certainly done worse doesn't meant that others, even Brandon himself, couldn't have done better.

Cause, on 22 January 2013 - 03:04 PM, said:

I believe Authors do have a responsibility to their readers and while the incident above is just silly fun for Martin and Pat to me I find it slightly insulting (not the best word but I cant think of a more appropriate one). Likewise I think Memory of light is filled with instance in which Brandon Sanderson is all but winking (breaking through the fourth wall) at some of the fansites on the web: fun for him, fun for some of the fans but I argue it weakens the book on the whole. When the king of Murandy enters the story for the first time and Rand and every Ashaman get ready to kill him because he must be demandred stood out as one such moment. I think the wheel of time also had a massive competition and uses many fan names in the books.

Peter (Brandon's assistant) has been arguing that it's not breaking the fourth wall unless characters recognize that they are fictional characters, which never happens in the books. So I told him a better term would be 'fanservice'. He says that works. And yes, the Brandon books are full of cheesy fanservice, and I hate it.

That said, the WoT books are full of real-world references from beginning to end, though few of them are modern; "Mr. Underhill" is just one example of hundreds. I think part of the problem with the fan names is that so many people read the books knowing that characters' names were adapted from fan names. The other part is that, while the principle Brandon described in the quote I linked above is all well and good, there are certain names that are more adaptable than others, and I don't think Brandon was very good at adapting them anyway. Sleete might have been a horrible name, but it was better than Azi al'Thone by a mile. And I happen to know the guy that character was named for and like him...it's just not a good WoT name. His last name, Aziz, would have been a great WoT surname, but he wanted to be from the Two Rivers, and Aziz is not a Two Rivers name.

[Cause]

Terez, on 22 January 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

I don't mind the cameo; what I mind is that he made his cameo Justice, one of the most legendary swords in the series, and then had it no role in the plot whatsoever. Whether or not it's appropriate, it's bad storytelling. And then he went and wrote in a use for RJ's cameo because fans complained no one was using it! (And RJ's cameo was, while intriguing as a plot toy, hardly a legendary object.)

Agreed. I shudder to think of the man hours wasted in thought of the possible appearance of this 'harmless' cameo

Terez, on 22 January 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Peter (Brandon's assistant) has been arguing that it's not breaking the fourth wall unless characters recognize that they are fictional characters, which never happens in the books. So I told him a better term would be 'fanservice'. He says that works. And yes, the Brandon books are full of cheesy fanservice, and I hate it.

Sophistry and Semantics, whatever it was I don't think it benefited the novel. The fourth wall is in place to preserve the world of the story from the world of the reader. The characters did not break the wall but the author did. Its obvious that a meta-element is taking place above what we are just reading however and what that is, is Brandon winking out to the reader. I have always thought that Brandon infact failed to keep a necessary distance between himself and the fans. He seemed far to close to them and the fansites. Maybe in part because arguably he himself is a fan and also because he needed their help to know what to do, where to take the story and whether Aes Sedai 2125 is important or not.

Terez, on 22 January 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

That said, the WoT books are full of real-world references from beginning to end, though few of them are modern; "Mr. Underhill" is just one example of hundreds. I think part of the problem with the fan names is that so many people read the books knowing that characters' names were adapted from fan names. The other part is that, while the principle Brandon described in the quote I linked above is all well and good, there are certain names that are more adaptable than others, and I don't think Brandon was very good at adapting them anyway. Sleete might have been a horrible name, but it was better than Azi al'Thone by a mile. And I happen to know the guy that character was named for and like him...it's just not a good WoT name. His last name, Aziz, would have been a great WoT surname, but he wanted to be from the Two Rivers, and Aziz is not a Two Rivers name.

As I said I did not mind a single throw away line. I'm Mr underhill. We see it for the homage it is and move on (I'm pretty sure this was a homage and not his way of saying Rand read the LotR). That said the mercedez symbol in the museum is fine, the wheel turns, and if it happens he drives a mercedez and not a BMW good for him.

[QuickTidal]

Terez, on 22 January 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

Peter (Brandon's assistant) has been arguing that it's not breaking the fourth wall unless characters recognize that they are fictional characters, which never happens in the books. So I told him a better term would be 'fanservice'. He says that works. And yes, the Brandon books are full of cheesy fanservice, and I hate it.

That said, the WoT books are full of real-world references from beginning to end, though few of them are modern; "Mr. Underhill" is just one example of hundreds. I think part of the problem with the fan names is that so many people read the books knowing that characters' names were adapted from fan names. The other part is that, while the principle Brandon described in the quote I linked above is all well and good, there are certain names that are more adaptable than others, and I don't think Brandon was very good at adapting them anyway. Sleete might have been a horrible name, but it was better than Azi al'Thone by a mile. And I happen to know the guy that character was named for and like him...it's just not a good WoT name. His last name, Aziz, would have been a great WoT surname, but he wanted to be from the Two Rivers, and Aziz is not a Two Rivers name.

Hmmm. That's interesting.

Peter is kind of wrong and kind of right.

Breaking The The Fourth Wall, does require both the character and the audience to work as such a thing. Without the character reaching out to the audience through that "meta-fictional window", the breaking does not occur. In that regard, if a character makes an outside reference on purpose as an audience "wink", then that character by the very nature of the act is acknowledging their existence is fictional. They don't have to come out and say it, for it to be true. In this case though, that breaking happens on a level that is not across-the-board to the whole audience (basically as a reader if you don't know it's a fan nod name or item, then it's not one...to you). So it breaks the 4th wall for some readers and not for others.

Patrek in ADWD, for instance, pulled me right out of the story. As far as I am concerned, that GRRM included Pat and I knew about it before reading meant that the Patrek character, by his very existence, is acknowledging to me that he is a fictional creation playing a part. And by acknowledging it to me, he by point of fact, acknowledges that to himself. He's no longer a character in story but becomes a character sitting half on that 4th wall window ledge winking at the audience while still feigning the playing of his part in-story. He's all but screaming his fictional nature to you and those around him. But for anyone who doesn't read The Hotlist, or know of Pat...it won't break that wall.

Fan service, on the other hand, is normally purely in-story nods to fandom and don't break any barrier of that meta-fictional window, and usually shows up in the form of fictional "nods" instead. So it's not really the same thing.

In regards to WOT I think that unless you are one of the die hard fans who frequents the boards and websites to a heavy degree...you simply won't get these references as being any kind of 4th wall breakage...in my case I knew none of these things were nods to anyone...including the RJ one (If I'm honest). So as a "fair-weather" fan I think I can safely say that this annoyance only applies to the die hard amongst you all.

So I can see Cause's point in that he was annoyed by these references because he knew them to be references to fans...and that pulls him out of the story.

In closing, perhaps there is something to be said for being too "on the ground floor" (if you will) with regards to books or authors, or storytellers in general...lest one spoils what might be an otherwise enjoyable experience. If you don't know about the things that will break that 4th wall...then it won't get broken for you.

All food for thought.

[Terez]

I don't think one necessarily has to be a die-hard fan to be aware of the fan names in the books; there are thousands of people who follow Brandon on Twitter and Facebook, and so most of those people know about it.

I don't think Brandon is necessarily 'too close' to the fans, or whether that had anything to do with the numerous winks, really; some of those he's gotten close to are critics of that kind of thing, so perhaps he didn't get close enough to us.

[Fid]

Finished - which is kind of weird after so long. Cannot believe Bela getting killed - especially having bumped off Asmo.....

At least the pace picked up though there was too much of the Dunkirk/battle of Britain - let's make the odds impossible first - and then turn it all round - though JRRT probably started all that.

I found the fire sticks reference in the Rand/dark one dream annoying - why do we have to have all the real world weapons apart from conventional stuff - we will have moranth munitions next

[Tattersail_]

I enjoyed the book, I couldn't put it down whilst reading. I loved how strong Demandred was with the Sword and with the One Power. The way Lan sheathed the Sword in his own body to get the kill was like when Rand did the same thing with Ishmael in TDR. I loved Gawyn dying. I loved Egwene dying. I was momentarily stunned by hearing Elayne's death cries but then remembered that was the "baddies" stirring confusion. Mellor was one sick bastard and I'm glad Birgitte arrowed the shit out of him. Her death was awesome. Ruarc becoming compulsed by Greandal was spot on, then Aviendha killing him was like Tavore killing her sister the whirlwind.

I thought the Darkhounds were scary as hell, I thought all hope was lost then. Perrin fucking killing one with his hammer was just full of win. Until he turned up I was wondering about Fain, I was thinking he should be there. I was thinking the Dark One possesses him but i'm glad that never happened. How did the seanchan woman that was with Nynaeve and Rand "help Rand die" I didn't catch that.

Mat was a central character in this book, probably one of the most used towards the end and he is my favourite character so I loved that.

Someone mentioned upthread that so many things could have been added which I agree with, but looking at this book the way it is I loved it. I think it was the best ending to one of these "epics" i've ever read.

[Cause]

Briar King, on 24 January 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Finally finished an hr ago. I like that 2 forsaken and Alviaria made it through, and I can't help but wonder with Mog getting collared if some of the events of Av's visions of the future are still meant to be implied to come to pass...

I dont recall the connection with Moghedian and Aviendhas visions?

@Tattersail, Rand asked Alivia to leave him some money and some clothes and he took it and then left. It was an incredibly weak fulfillment of the foretelling.

[Tattersail_]

Cause, on 24 January 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Briar King, on 24 January 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

Finally finished an hr ago. I like that 2 forsaken and Alviaria made it through, and I can't help but wonder with Mog getting collared if some of the events of Av's visions of the future are still meant to be implied to come to pass...

I dont recall the connection with Moghedian and Aviendhas visions?

@Tattersail, Rand asked Alivia to leave him some money and some clothes and he took it and then left. It was an incredibly weak fulfillment of the foretelling.

I think he could have had many endings. Many different turn of events. She didn't help him die, she helped him live...