[RodeoRanch]

Excellent. I've been waiting to read that summary for ages. I'll get around to reading the books again sometime. Maybe. I quit at Crossroads of Twilight.

[Limper]

Done, and glad it's done. I think Brandon Sanderson did a wonderful job of breathing life into a sagging series. I felt driven to complete it whether I liked it or not, and it did not, well, taste terribly satisfying. Analyzing AMOL I think it's technically very good - we saw some good guys killed, some bad guys put in their places, innovative battle methods, plenty of dark side POVs (I think a pre-war strategy session with DO and the Forsaken/Chosen would have been nice), a fresh hero&heroine from the Black Tower, and a somewhat unexpected ending with a few loose ends which could evolve into a follow-up novella or something. I'll have to re-read at a slower pace to see what I might have missed or if maybe I just need to slow and savor more - I caught myself fast-forwarding through some of the northern battle scenes.

I think I would have enjoyed a harder twist at the end. Maybe a sudden replacement Dragon or a Forsaken turning back to the Light and making a crucial difference. The male forsaken seemed disappointingly dumb - nothing but sledgehammer moves, fireball, balefire, send in Trollocs - over and over. Demandred's duel series was humorous, if taken a little too far. Grendael and Lanfear were certainly the stars of the dark side, to me. Did Logain ever find his moment of amazing glory? Was it just giving up on the cup angreal and saving a child at the end? I sort of enjoyed Rand's "League of Nations" attempt to end war permanently. I really enjoyed Cadsuane getting drafted into her new job. Assuming Mat will no longer be Ta'veren, how will he ever survive his insolent ways?

Anybody know if the SuperFade got killed in an earlier book? I don't recall, but he obviously was not around in AMOL.

And Rand, Min, Aviendha, Elayne, Mat, Tuor, Perrin, and Faile lived happily ever after. Fancy that.

[Pig Iron]

Nostalgic reading the ending of a series that's been there basically forever, and the author dead. Sanderson is a good craftsman. Basically a fun read. Some things were weird though, at least to someone like me who does not remember the books before Sanderson too well.

Nobody ever checked up on what was happening in Shara, despite all the talk of spy-networks and brilliant strategists? Mat's combined strategical experience resulted in a plan of not using a whole army of channelers (that unlike the Aes Sedai are actually trained to work on the battlefield), flying mounts, animals that can go one on one with Trollocs, and disciplined soldiers that can happily die for the Empress until the very end when everyone else has been slaughtered? Demandred (pictured him as Bane the whole time) was available for chatting and sparring until third time is the charm Lan kills him? Lan sacrifices himself ... no he didn't. Faile sacrifices herself ... no. Rand sacrifices himself ... no. Rocky syndrome (you get miraculously stronger when you're almost dead or beaten) for Egwene, Perrin, Lan, Rand. And after all the Arthurian foreshadowing there's just a body-swap? Nice touch though with Rand's seemingly new power over the pattern.

Offensive gateways were used in Stephen Donaldson's Mordant's Need, in the form of mirrors. Cool, but there's a serious problem with that, as you can basically use it as a nuke. Don't know why nobody picked it up after Androl. Open one at the bottom of an ocean or as he did in a volcano. They didn't need the guns. The next war in that world will make the Last Battle seem like a picnic.

Almost no new revelations and I don't know what I think about the confrontation with the Dark One (parasitic Dark Lord sealed in a prison needed for free will? ok close to what some Christians seem to believe).

Nitpicking I know, it's a fantasy. Sanderson did a great job wrapping up somebody else's story.

Edited several times, still thinking about it which is a good thing I guess.

This post has been edited by Pig Iron: 13 January 2013 - 10:37 AM

[Terez]

 Pig Iron, on 13 January 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Nobody ever checked up on what was happening in Shara, despite all the talk of spy-networks and brilliant strategists? Mat's combined strategical experience resulted in a plan of not using a whole army of channelers (that unlike the Aes Sedai are actually trained to work on the battlefield), flying mounts, animals that can go one on one with Trollocs, and disciplined soldiers that can happily die for the Empress until the very end when everyone else has been slaughtered?

He made nifty use of gateways, though...

 Pig Iron, on 13 January 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Demandred (pictured him as Bane the whole time) was available for chatting and sparring until third time is the charm Lan kills him? Lan sacrifices himself ... no he didn't. Faile sacrifices herself ... no. Rand sacrifices himself ... no.

Yeah, all the fake deaths were beyond annoying. I do think (in retrospect) that RJ always intended Rand's sacrifice to be the burden of his responsibilities, up to and including that day. "Death is light as a feather, duty heavy as a mountain." In other words, Rand came to the point where he felt death would have been a release. Then he came to the point where he had merely embraced and accepted it. Then he realized in the end that Moridin's body provided the same kind of release. The mountain was his sacrifice; the feather was in essence trivialized, made unimportant. The Dark One tried to break him with death, but death was a price worth paying to lay the mountain low, not just for Rand, but for Egwene and everyone else who willingly paid that price.

It was a good theme, and one that I think was somewhat trivialized by the overload of fake-outs. I wonder if Perrin's death was meant to be more explicit, for example—the price he paid to gain Slayer's talent. It was heavily implied that Slayer could do what he did because he was two souls melded together. "One did live, and one did die, but both are." That's from the TGH dark prophecy, where Perrin is Lanfear's "new lover...who shall serve her and die, yet serve still."

 Pig Iron, on 13 January 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Rocky syndrome (you get miraculously stronger when you're almost dead or beaten) for Egwene, Perrin, Lan, Rand. And after all the Arthurian foreshadowing there's just a body-swap? Nice touch though with Rand's seemingly new power over the pattern.

I've always hated the body-swap theory. It did occur to me as a noob after the KOD release, but I didn't like it, partly because of a bit you edited out about having sex with Moridin's body. I always knew there was the rationalization that clearly his three women would take him whatever way they could get him (those words were used by Min early on), and of course Moridin's body was young and handsome, if starkly different from Rand in appearance. And since the world is now Rand's dream (i.e. he has the powers of Tel'aran'rhiod in the real world) he can make himself look like Rand if he wants to, so I guess that's not so bad. But the main thing I didn't like about the bodyswap theory was that the mechanism was wishy-washy and not very well foreshadowed. Others always argued it was foreshadowed by Luc/Isam and Mordeth/Fain and Thom's line in TEOTW about the dead taking a living body. And then there was the whole (unexplained) bond between Rand and Moridin that presumably made it easier. But it wasn't explained at all, so that's unsatisfying to readers who appreciated RJ's scientific approach to magic. Of course, the body swap can be explained by Rand's new powers, but it's terribly deus ex machina. A bit of grounding for that in the scene itself would have gone a long way.

The Arthurian red herrings are annoying because they don't even have satisfactory allegorical fulfillment. Most especially the boat. Of course, no one ever had any good theories about the boat anyway (though lots of people subscribed to one or another). I just think that one could have been done better.

 Pig Iron, on 13 January 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Almost no new revelations and I don't know what I think about the confrontation with the Dark One (parasitic Dark Lord sealed in a prison needed for free will? ok close to what some Christians seem to believe).

Yeah, it bugged me too, obviously. *sigh*

[Cyphon]

I really liked that Demandred had fallen in love with his Sharan Queen/whatever. Struck me as a very effective way to flesh out his character that has been so removed from the series.

Also, Terez, it's now Rand's Dream?! He has the powers of Tel'aran'rhiodin there?!?!?! I missed that one.

[Terez]

 Cyphon, on 13 January 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

I really liked that Demandred had fallen in love with his Sharan Queen/whatever. Struck me as a very effective way to flesh out his character that has been so removed from the series.

I liked it too, conceptually; I just wasn't entirely pleased with delivery. Demandred was a little too batshit in this book to seem entirely in character, but falling in love (again) seemed more or less in character for him.

 Cyphon, on 13 January 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Also, Terez, it's now Rand's Dream?! He has the powers of Tel'aran'rhiodin there?!?!?! I missed that one.

Well, the big question for everyone after the end seems to be, how did Rand light his pipe? To me, this explanation makes the most sense. One could say it evolved from the confrontation with the Dark One, that it's a sort of residual control over the Pattern, but Tel'aran'rhiod is a place where a normal human can have that level of control over reality. Rand can do it in the real world.

[Cyphon]

Yeah there is plenty to chew over to keep the theorylander's happy.

[Illuyankas]

Remember how in the end Aviendha hurt her feet and lost some digits? Finally she can say she has no toh.

(how long was that pun set up for holy balls)

[Coco with marshmallows]

you know, i always expected the ending to be a flash forward to a very young Lews Therin getting told the mythological stories of Rand al Thor......

[Illuyankas]

'But it was an ending' couldn't have been more set in stone if it was carved into a lump of granite, sealed in a box of slate, shoved into a hollowed out marble statue and left in the middle of that big castle thing in Tear.

[Werthead]

Quote

you know, i always expected the ending to be a flash forward to a very young Lews Therin getting told the mythological stories of Rand al Thor......

That would have worked if RJ hadn't made the revolutions of the Wheel so immensely long. From the end of the Second to the end of the Third Age was 3,400 years. From the end of the Third back to the end of the Second, across multiple world-changing events and whatever event causes the Wheel to 'reset' (not quite the right word but the best I can do) between the Seventh and First Ages, must be many tens of thousands of years (if not millions). Not really plausible that Rand al'Thor's name would survive.

This post has been edited by Werthead: 13 January 2013 - 09:21 PM

[amphibian]

 Terez, on 13 January 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

I've always hated the body-swap theory. It did occur to me as a noob after the KOD release, but I didn't like it, partly because of a bit you edited out about having sex with Moridin's body. I always knew there was the rationalization that clearly his three women would take him whatever way they could get him (those words were used by Min early on), and of course Moridin's body was young and handsome, if starkly different from Rand in appearance. And since the world is now Rand's dream (i.e. he has the powers of Tel'aran'rhiod in the real world) he can make himself look like Rand if he wants to, so I guess that's not so bad.

In before Illy, Rand did it all to stop being a ginger.

[Illuyankas]

DAMN IT

[Eddie Dean]

 Limper, on 13 January 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Anybody know if the SuperFade got killed in an earlier book? I don't recall, but he obviously was not around in AMOL.

I'm pretty sure he was the "husk" that was on the floor in the cave that Mordin referred to.

This post has been edited by Eddie Dean: 14 January 2013 - 03:25 PM

[Terez]

Indeed.

AMOL 25 said:

The figure stood and turned, Moridin's now-familiar face reflecting Callandor's glow. Beside him on the ground lay a husk. Rand could explain it no other way. It was like the shell some insects leave behind when they grow, only it was in the shape of a man. A man with no eyes. One of the Myrddraal?

Moridin looked to the husk, following Rand's gaze. "A vessel my master needed no longer," Moridin said. Saa floated in the whites of his eyes, bouncing, shaking, moving with crazed vigor. "It gave birth to what is behind me."

"There is nothing behind you."

Moridin raised his sword before his face in a salute. "Exactly."

[Limper]

 Eddie Dean, on 14 January 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

 Limper, on 13 January 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Anybody know if the SuperFade got killed in an earlier book? I don't recall, but he obviously was not around in AMOL.

I'm pretty sure he was the "husk" that was on the floor in the cave that Mordin referred to.

 Terez, on 14 January 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Indeed.

AMOL 25 said:

The figure stood and turned, Moridin's now-familiar face reflecting Callandor's glow. Beside him on the ground lay a husk. Rand could explain it no other way. It was like the shell some insects leave behind when they grow, only it was in the shape of a man. A man with no eyes. One of the Myrddraal?

Moridin looked to the husk, following Rand's gaze. "A vessel my master needed no longer," Moridin said. Saa floated in the whites of his eyes, bouncing, shaking, moving with crazed vigor. "It gave birth to what is behind me."

"There is nothing behind you."

Moridin raised his sword before his face in a salute. "Exactly."

Thanks to both of you. I guess I didn't connect the dots because I thought Shaidar Haran was supposed to be ridiculously tall - enough so his husk ought to be remarkable. But I guess in that warped location, and after whatever killed the super Myrddraal, any size is possible.

So I wonder, if the Aes Sedai thought Rand had died while Moridin recovered, why would they ever let Moridin walk away? Even Cadsuane only had her suspicions, no certainty that Rand has soul-transferred. Letting a Forsaken go free would be a terrible mistake at that point, even if he was stilled in the final battle and only had ancient knowledge to work mischief with. I guess Rand kept a little touch of Ta'averen which enabled his escape.

And then I wonder how book 15 would start, if it were to take up events immediately after the last battle. The dark-light conflict would have to return, so we could have a darkfriend liberate Graendal or Moghedien, or Morin resurface as another tenant in Rand's mind, or maybe a fundamental flaw in Rand's solution - The Dark One's new prison incorporates True Power from within the sealed prison, which is sort of running on DO's batteries so it will run down in time. Or it could simply be another case where permanent spells aren't all that permanent, especially near the Dark One and in spite of Rand's new 3-way barrier. We could hardly say, 'it has to be perfect because Lews Therin's knowledge went into making it,' given Therin's past failures. Of course Jordan's wife and Sanderson won't write another book, but a fan fic might be in order one of these days. Especially since, as things stand with the DO in a perfect cage, things are not different in any practical sense from Rand having killed the Dark One and finding the world unbearably dull and bleak.

[Tattersail_]

Before reading up I want to say WOW.

I am happy. I have no regrets, I am not disappointed. I am very happy. The moment that gave me tingles was Grady muttering to himself about Mat's orders and then the people who died the day before come pouring through the gateway. I fucking loved this moment. I didn't expect it at all and loved it.

As Mat was my favorite character I was a little disappointed at the start because he wasn't around and the story focused elsewhere yet that was okay because I got lots and lots of him later on.

How powerful was Demandred? I really liked it when this massive gateway opened and this unknown race came pouring through/started blasting people and kicking arse. His name was funny and it felt right to me. I was so glad it didn't turn out to be the King of Murandy. He killed Gawyen, YES! He killed Galad, YES! Go powerful bad guy, that's how it should be, then GO LAN! How awesome is he? Cutting his head off was awesome.

Birgitte's death was beautifully done. Mellar was an evil guy it showed when he was going to cut out Elayne's baby.

Egwene dead, Suan dead, Bryne Dead, amazing!!

I loved Fortuona and Min's storyline, how she reads omens and it came from someone like Min in the past.

I was confused about the Rand living storyline at the end, did he swap bodies, or did he have an illusion placed on him?

There's so much in the book that I cannot remember it all to say here but I loved every minute of it.

[Tattersail_]

 Illuyankas, on 10 January 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Oh, and I was also a fan of Moiraine doing literally nothing inside the cave. Does she even try to help save Alanna? Does she even get a dialogue line past appearing at Merrilor?

And while I'm at it, power-wrought weapons kill Darkhounds? Then why was Perrin the only one to kill any pre-Wolfpackalypse? What happened to all the other power-wrought swords and spears being made!?

I thought both of these things as well, we don't know how many where made do we? Moiraine though is a powerful Aes Sedai and Rand may have needed both her and Nynaeve for the amount of Saidar used at the end, plus he need to use them to wield Callandor anyway.

[Tattersail_]

 Terez, on 13 January 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

 Cyphon, on 13 January 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

I really liked that Demandred had fallen in love with his Sharan Queen/whatever. Struck me as a very effective way to flesh out his character that has been so removed from the series.

I liked it too, conceptually; I just wasn't entirely pleased with delivery. Demandred was a little too batshit in this book to seem entirely in character, but falling in love (again) seemed more or less in character for him.

 Cyphon, on 13 January 2013 - 01:37 PM, said:

Also, Terez, it's now Rand's Dream?! He has the powers of Tel'aran'rhiodin there?!?!?! I missed that one.

Well, the big question for everyone after the end seems to be, how did Rand light his pipe? To me, this explanation makes the most sense. One could say it evolved from the confrontation with the Dark One, that it's a sort of residual control over the Pattern, but Tel'aran'rhiod is a place where a normal human can have that level of control over reality. Rand can do it in the real world.

Bending the patten to his will, he thinks something and it happens. Yeah you could say the world of dreams but I like the use of the pattern ability.

[Held]

I finished AMOL a day ago and for the most part was incredibly satisfied. It was brilliant!

Thank-you Brandon Sanderson for finishing this story for us. It is always bittersweet to end a well loved series. I am still thinking about this ending and planning to read again. When I first read the ending I was happy that Rand survived his monumental burden of responsibility, but now I am not sure. He was too carefree in this ending scene for what had just transpired. I get that he did all of his suffering for everyone who died and shucked off his feeling of personal responsibility while with the Dark Lord, but I think it would have been more realistic if he hadn’t been more interested in which of his loves would follow him and instead thought about how he would try to be a father to his future children or how he would miss some who had died. Or how he was leaving his father thinking he was dead.



My favorites:

• RAND DID IT! HE SAVED THE WORLD!

• The Last Battle was so realistic it totally absorbed me. It was emotionally exhausting to read.

• Tam teaching Rand how to let go and how to use the sword with one hand…

• Olver sounding the horn and being rescued by Noal…I cried.

• Egwene’s final scene…breathtaking.

• Matt kicked ASS! Loved everything written about him in this book. He got to be a savior again in a most spectacular way. Matt playing cards and dicing with Demandred!

• Lan was outstanding… at Tarwin's Gap making his last ride into tens of thousands of trollocs and fades knowing his force would be demolished and then gateways split the air and the rest of the Borderlanders came through at full charge….the way he killed Demandred…pumping fist in the air moment.

• Aiel finally accepting a different future and making Rand include them in the pact.

• Thom killing the Black sisters while composing his saga.

• Perrin making the hard choice of Rand over Faile and killing Lanfear…about bloody time she met her end.

• Min… Tuon’s truthsayer…WTH?

• Logain finally figuring out that love is better than fear.

• Demandred was pretty damn awesome.

• ·Moghedien collared again!

• Ogier tearing through Trollocs.

• The gods-eye-view gateways.

• How Callandor was used. Awesome, but when did they figure this out? Definitely a surprise!

• Rand bending the pattern to his will, he thinks of it being lit, and it is!

<br style="mso-special-character:line-break">

Big Yuck moments:

• Gawyn’s stupid death….it had to be because it fit his character.

• Fain being a let’s tie up this loose thread event.

• Demandred’s constant yelling for Rand.

• Aviendha finally being able to say she has no toh.

• I love Perrin but I so got tired of his chasing Slayer.

• Rand not letting his father know that he lived.

• Being left wondering how the body switch happened.

• The almost forced abortion of Elaynes babies.

• Bela dying…she was loyal to the end.

Yes there were characters that I wished had more presence, a few scenes that were boring, and a couple of words that made me pause, but I have not found a book where this is not true. I’m very grateful to Brandon and Harriet for dedicating themselves to finishing RJ’s life work and for doing so with integrity. I so very much wish we had the opportunity to see what the new age brings to all of the survivors, but at least we know it will start a lot better than the last age. <br style="mso-special-character:line-break"> <br style="mso-special-character:line-break">