[Illuyankas]

Tattersail, on 15 January 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

How powerful was Demandred? I really liked it when this massive gateway opened and this unknown race came pouring through/started blasting people and kicking arse. His name was funny and it felt right to me. I was so glad it didn't turn out to be the King of Murandy. He killed Gawyen, YES! He killed Galad, YES! Go powerful bad guy, that's how it should be, then GO LAN! How awesome is he? Cutting his head off was awesome.

I was confused about the Rand living storyline at the end, did he swap bodies, or did he have an illusion placed on him?

He ALMOST killed Galad, who is now Stumpy. And it was a body swap since otherwise his hand would have grown back.

Tattersail, on 15 January 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on 10 January 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Oh, and I was also a fan of Moiraine doing literally nothing inside the cave. Does she even try to help save Alanna? Does she even get a dialogue line past appearing at Merrilor?

And while I'm at it, power-wrought weapons kill Darkhounds? Then why was Perrin the only one to kill any pre-Wolfpackalypse? What happened to all the other power-wrought swords and spears being made!?

I thought both of these things as well, we don't know how many where made do we? Moiraine though is a powerful Aes Sedai and Rand may have needed both her and Nynaeve for the amount of Saidar used at the end, plus he need to use them to wield Callandor anyway.

Moiraine was a powerful Aes Sedai before the whole Finn thing, but she probably had the angreal she had before.

[Tattersail_]

Illuyankas, on 15 January 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

Tattersail, on 15 January 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

How powerful was Demandred? I really liked it when this massive gateway opened and this unknown race came pouring through/started blasting people and kicking arse. His name was funny and it felt right to me. I was so glad it didn't turn out to be the King of Murandy. He killed Gawyen, YES! He killed Galad, YES! Go powerful bad guy, that's how it should be, then GO LAN! How awesome is he? Cutting his head off was awesome.

I was confused about the Rand living storyline at the end, did he swap bodies, or did he have an illusion placed on him?

He ALMOST killed Galad, who is now Stumpy. And it was a body swap since otherwise his hand would have grown back.

Tattersail, on 15 January 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on 10 January 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Oh, and I was also a fan of Moiraine doing literally nothing inside the cave. Does she even try to help save Alanna? Does she even get a dialogue line past appearing at Merrilor?

And while I'm at it, power-wrought weapons kill Darkhounds? Then why was Perrin the only one to kill any pre-Wolfpackalypse? What happened to all the other power-wrought swords and spears being made!?

I thought both of these things as well, we don't know how many where made do we? Moiraine though is a powerful Aes Sedai and Rand may have needed both her and Nynaeve for the amount of Saidar used at the end, plus he need to use them to wield Callandor anyway.

Moiraine was a powerful Aes Sedai before the whole Finn thing, but she probably had the angreal she had before.

Touché, I forgot someone rescued Galad!

[acesn8s]

I wish we got to see what Hawkwing said to Tuon.

I enjoyed the book. I look forward to another read through in a month or two.

So, we have Graendal and Moghy still kicking around, nice. I'm glad that not all the baddies were neatly down away with.

I didn't like the wolves being linked to the horn. I also got the impression that there were a lot more shadowhounds at the last battle than actually existed.

[Cause]

Cause, on 16 January 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

A lot of what I expected happened, so much of what I expected was just left by the wayside, so many prophecies in my opinion were simply ignored. Still I have waited almost ten years to finish this series and I guess I am pleased.

Allana existed because? She held Rands bond for what? ten books so she could be used as a trap and a weak one at that? Was Verrin's secret letter to her 'travel to Shayol goul and be captured'? This bugged me to no end. I always thought she would be important.

No Song
No Rand wedding on the eve of the big battle
Rand never fixed the Aiel bleakness, the Shaido or at least what I thought he would do, fix the brotherless
Not one darkfriend was retuned to the light. (I had suspected perhaps demandred before this book, reading the book I thought Rand might save Elan)
The way of the leaf was exposed and deconstructed but not handled well I thought
Really it took perrin to point out the obvious, 'hey lets make the Aiel enforce the peace'
God the Light side was incompetently stupid at times. Ignore Shara, screw up the horn so badly, hold the bulk of the damane in reserve until it was too late.
Gawyn shamed himself, Sanderson, the book and the light in this book
Anti-balefire? Seriously!? (My Egwene hate remains. When she thinks of Rand as sheepherder and boy I knew her mind had left reality behind)
Padan Fain should have died soon after the cleansing of saidin, he served no purpose after that, nobody wanted a gollum moment but his end was just pathetic.
Alivia! @#$#
Lanfear! She could have killed rand or the others but waited for Perrin!
It never occured to Rand, Egwene or the wise ones that attacks might come through the dream world?
Did Dobraine die in an earlier book? Where is he?
Why did the thousands of Aiel wise one channelers not fight?


I liked Demandred, I liked him showing up with the Sharans (I had begun to think an entire third of the world was just not going be used). Still! He is now a better blademaster than Lan, as good a general as Mat and controls the forces of a third of the planet, having manifested some prophecies to become the dragonslayer? (I loved and hated this idea, I cant explain this double think but there it is) He was better than Rand! He conquered his continent, earned his peoples loyalty and nearly single handedly won the war for the shadow. Even Taim was his and never Morridin's pawn. Also suddenly he is completely batshit insane? Which I think is directly in contrast to what we have heard before. Too much good stuff was not covered here, it made an incredible surprise but still... Were the prophecies natural or shadow created/tainted. Did demandred usurp the dragons role in Shara or did it not exist (There seemed to be many parralels especially with the owned by the land thing). He has the accent so were they the descendants of his people of the age of legends or did he just pick up the accent. Seriously this guy should have be Naebliss. Was this never meant to be covered or was it a pacing issue, death of Jordan issue.

I had always hoped Rand would live but the ending seemed weak to me, he lives but just dissapears? Leaves his father, his friends, his girlfriends?

[Kilgore Trout]

Quote

The way of the leaf was exposed and deconstructed but not handled well I thought

This really, REALLY, bothered me.

The most moving part of the entire series, IMO, was when Rand was watching the history of the Aiel, and they stood, as pacifists, to die at the hands of a mad-channler to protect the citizens as they escaped the city. My impression was that Jordan was attempting to construct the Way of the Leaf as an alternative, perhaps THE alternative to the Shadow. At least he was legitimizing its power. Sanderson just took a shit on it.

[Terez]

Kilgore Trout, on 16 January 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

Quote

The way of the leaf was exposed and deconstructed but not handled well I thought

This really, REALLY, bothered me.

The most moving part of the entire series, IMO, was when Rand was watching the history of the Aiel, and they stood, as pacifists, to die at the hands of a mad-channler to protect the citizens as they escaped the city. My impression was that Jordan was attempting to construct the Way of the Leaf as an alternative, perhaps THE alternative to the Shadow. At least he was legitimizing its power. Sanderson just took a shit on it.

I'm not sure this one can be blamed on Brandon. I do think that there is something missing in his writing that could have given a lot more emotional impact to certain things, and a lot more clues for the future of Randland in general, and while I wouldn't be surprised if RJ was heading for a return of the Aiel to the Way, it's possible he didn't get the chance to leave notes on that; he didn't break down and start spewing everything forth until his last weeks. I think he was also heading for an emancipation revolution among the Seanchan, but I'm not particularly surprised that didn't happen in the book. And I don't think Brandon would have, for example, had Mat take his own damane if RJ hadn't specified it should happen (though I suppose it's possible Harriet slipped in that detail). RJ was something of a Southern (US) apologist, and I think he tried to put the Southern slaveowners in their cultural perspective via the Seanchan. He always said he was a distinctly American writer, and beyond that a distinctly Southern one.

The Way of the Leaf theme was primarily Perrin's, and Perrin's struggle was always a nuanced one. He loved the Way of the Leaf, and wished that it could be for everyone, but he faced up to the realities of a world with the Shadow and did What Must Be Done. (That's the name of the chapter where he throws away his axe after the torture of the Shaido captive; torture was another ongoing theme RJ dealt with and, like Perrin's struggle with the Way, something that came from his own military experience.) The hammer was Perrin's compromise, much in the same way the spears (as opposed to the sword) were the compromise of the Aiel, and both are very similar to the arguments some eat-what-you-shoot gun apologists make for rifles as opposed to assault weapons. One puts food on the table (or in Perrin's case, is a tool for creating things) and the other can only be used for killing.

The Da'shain Aiel were the product of an Age of peace. They held on during the War of Shadow in much the same way the gai'shain held on during the Last Battle—or most of them, anyway. Bain and Chiad, for example—and of course the Tinkers. But the time for the Way is after the Last Battle; it's not surprising that the warrior Aiel chose to fight, and that the story concentrated on the fighters rather than those who threw down their spears. I'm not sure RJ would have done differently, though again, it's possible he would have been able to imply a lot with one or two scenes.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Anyone think it was interesting that the DO ended up being a black hole?

[QuickTidal]

So I finished tonight (about 15 minutes ago), so some fresh stuff.

I REALLY enjoyed it and found it a fitting end to the series.

Lan's final charge...sweet gods, that was amazing, and with the Two River's bowmen clearing him a path through the Trolloc line with flaming arrows? AMAZING! "You didn't hear me, I said, I'm here to KILL you!"

Egwene's final act and death did me in more than anything else in the book. I was actually sobbing a bit.

The Last battle was great, but I think it was a tad TOO long overall. I found there were several moments where various characters did "last stand" "once more into the fray" moments...and then did that again later. Perrin I think was the one that stands out most. It wasn't really bad or anything, but noticeable to me at any rate.

Olver blowing the horn. Nice touch that...but yeah, Noal showing up to save him...when one of the "heroes" streaked away from the others at high speed, I KNEW it would be him. It was also kind of poetic, cause isn't Olver supposed to be RJ?

Demandred's Challengers was pretty damned funny throughout...but I'm totally surprised in that I suspected (especially at the beginning of the book) that Demandred was seeking to swap sides and was feigning the dark side, ala Snape...looking for redemption...so when that didn't happen I was glad for the humour his storyline brought. Also, I realize it was wishful thinking, but I thought Galad might have had him...LOL.

I still fucking LOATHE Tuon. She's a flat out asshat biznatch who blindly believes her own caustic shit..and the best Mat can do is think it's funny or trying. I was disgusted by the fact that they worked with the Seanchan to battle Shadow...but they conceded nothing and even got land where they were allowed to enslave channelers. That did not sit well with me at all...as all I kept thinking was that this would be like if the Allies had needed the Nazi's to fight a darker enemy and to get them to agree they would agree to letting them continue to torture people behind their borders. That's abhorrent to me, and so I found it distasteful. I had a small welling of hope when Hawkwing showed up and i thought "At LAST! the ONE person who can show the Seanchan the error of their ways!"...and ....and....we didn't get to see it. Fuck. HATE. TUON.

Faile however...whom I have hated for a very long time, redeems herself in AMOL. She doens't stand around being bossy and actually is allowed to be heroic, and this even includes finding Perrin at the end and giving him the hope he thought he'd lost.

Lanfear dead. FINALLY! That fucker needed to go down books ago.

I am on the team of I don't like the "bodyswap"...at least not how it was done. Actually, no, it has more to do with the fact that it removes the emotional hit from Rand's sacrifice. Though I will freely admit that Tam's words to Rand's old body as he lit the pyre got me in the heartstrings, but that was because Rand didn't let him know that he lived still. I dunno, it's a nice plot device to allow Rand to go on and have a normal life after all he did...but part of me thinks it might have been better to allow him the real hero death, and then have the epilogue have scenes of his later reincarnation be able to live a simpler life, passing the saving of the world to one of the other taveren maybe? I dunno. I get that it's a wheel and everyone has their part to play, but ...yeah...the bodyswap kind of stole something I think.

And I am also in the camp who wanted the battle to happen end mid-to-late-book so I could have seen the aftermath, the picking up the pieces, the people who benefited from the events of the 14 books. It felt less like a proper "epilogue" (which normally happens months or years later), and more like a final scene.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

This is a question I am not sure of regarding Callandor.

How was it created that it was a True Power sa'angreal? I know it was created by male and female Aes Sedai shortly following the Breaking. From what Rand told Elayne about angreal this last book it seems like they angreal and sa'angreal are created by feeding power into them continuously over a period of months. Who would have been around that the DO would allow to channel the True Power? I thought that that was a power that could only be granted by the DO, and I doubt he'd want any Aes Sedai to be able to use it just after he had been imprisoned. Especially if he had any inkling of what it was being built for.

I considered the possibility that it was created somehow as an artifact that could somehow channel all the powers, but women couldn't use it so that doesn't seem to make sense.

Any thoughts on this?

[Terez]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 January 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

This is a question I am not sure of regarding Callandor.

How was it created that it was a True Power sa'angreal? I know it was created by male and female Aes Sedai shortly following the Breaking.

Actually, it was made during the War of Power. Perhaps that helps.

[Kilgore Trout]

Hola Terez,

Quote

. I do think that there is something missing in his writing that could have given a lot more emotional impact to certain things

RJ had a subtlety that Sanderson simply doesn't have. There were a few points in the book where Sanderson explained the ramifications of a statement for us, rather then allow the reader to take part in the intrigue. So yea, with respect to the Way of the Leaf (and I am thinking in particular the scene where the Tinker calls the Mercs cowards) Sanderson's inner-dialogue is too...blunt.

Quote

The Way of the Leaf theme was primarily Perrin's, and Perrin's struggle was always a nuanced one.

Yes and no. The Way was certainly and Aiel storyline as well, with ramifications from Avidenda, Amys, Rand, etc. Perrin had a similar struggle, but the Way of the Leaf was never articulated within his story from its historical context. The Tinkers always seemed to miss something about the Way, namely that the Way was actually a form of courage. "I will match your bravery, Jenn"

Quote

The Da'shain Aiel were the product of an Age of peace.

Certainly, and I was hoping that the story would allow for a nuanced representation of that way of life within a world of conflict.

I think my critique is simply that Sanderson lacked the subtlety of Jordan. His characterization and handling of nuanced concepts/situations just seems heavy handed in relation to Jordan writings. I think an example of this is in all of the hero speeches that our hero's give, also the meeting of leaders with Rand. Everything was just too blunt, when the Game of Houses was so intriguing before, this just seemed one dimensional.

Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for Sanderson finishing the story; I just miss certain aspects of Jordan that apparently other people never quite enjoyed.

[Terez]

Kilgore Trout, on 19 January 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

Hola Terez,

Quote

. I do think that there is something missing in his writing that could have given a lot more emotional impact to certain things

RJ had a subtlety that Sanderson simply doesn't have. There were a few points in the book where Sanderson explained the ramifications of a statement for us, rather then allow the reader to take part in the intrigue. So yea, with respect to the Way of the Leaf (and I am thinking in particular the scene where the Tinker calls the Mercs cowards) Sanderson's inner-dialogue is too...blunt.

Yes, Brandon is very much a 'tell, don't show' kind of author, for the most part.

Kilgore Trout, on 19 January 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for Sanderson finishing the story; I just miss certain aspects of Jordan that apparently other people never quite enjoyed.

ha, you've never been to Theoryland, have you? I am also a critic; I just thought the way you phrased it was too general, since I'm not sure RJ was going quite where it seemed he was going with the Way.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Terez, on 19 January 2013 - 03:49 AM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 19 January 2013 - 01:52 AM, said:

This is a question I am not sure of regarding Callandor.

How was it created that it was a True Power sa'angreal? I know it was created by male and female Aes Sedai shortly following the Breaking.

Actually, it was made during the War of Power. Perhaps that helps.

That does help a bit, explaining the flawed part of it at least. But my greater question was how was it made to be able to channel the DO's power? It was my interpretation that using that Power had to be gifted from the DO, that is why only the Forsaken and Rand could use it.

[Terez]

Sorry, thought the next step would be obvious; it had to be made by someone with access to the True Power. That's problematic after the Strike, but not before.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Terez, on 19 January 2013 - 04:56 PM, said:

Sorry, thought the next step would be obvious; it had to be made by someone with access to the True Power. That's problematic after the Strike, but not before.

Yea nvm what I said earlier, I had the timeline of events all messed up in my head. The curse of being a MBotF fan...

[Kurt Montandon]

OK ... I just wasn't satisfied.

I picked up EoTW in '93, and after twenty years ... this is NOT the way things should have been.

The entire last third of the book had the feel of an author who just wanted to get it over with,
so he could move on to his own work. Seriously, Sanderson really just had no connection with Jordan's
characters, and didn't seem to care. All the Important Person deaths were handled poorly (except maybe
Egwene's), and almost ... off-handedly. Like he just picked a bunch of main characters at random, and
knocked them off without putting any heart into it, because he knew there were supposed to be at least
some important deaths. He just checked that box off the list, and moved on.

And moved on ... without wrapping anything up. I didn't expect a couple hundred pages of post Last
Battle resolutions, but holy shit, we got nothing. I mean, WTF? Except for Rand's moving on
(which was well done), we got not a damned thing.

No, Sanderson really obviously just wanted to get it over with.

[Terez]

Rand's "moving on" was RJ's "last scene" that he always said he could have written in 1984. Brandon has also said that the epilogue stuff was the "most complete" sequence of scenes he was left by RJ, and I have to wonder if their desire to put that sequence in more or less untouched led to it being much less satisfying than it could have been. RJ probably would have polished and polished those scenes until he was sure they gave a satisfying finish, and he probably would have given some better hints throughout the book(s) as to what happens after. Brandon tried to do that, but sometimes it came off rushed/forced (e.g. Rand's last meeting with Tuon, Egwene's meeting with the Wise Ones and Sea Folk), and at other times just not very interesting/inspiring:

AMOL said:

"We'll make a home," Lan said. "The Shadow defeated, Nynaeve and I will reclaim Malkier. We'll make the fields bloom again, cleanse the lakes. Green pastures. No more Trollocs to fight. Children to ride on your back, old friend. You can spend your days in peace, eating apples and having your pick of mares."

That said, RJ always did intend to leave a lot of unresolved plotlines. Go here and search for _bell jar_ and you'll find several quotes where he talked about this, but this is the gist:

RJ said:

Some plot lines will be resolved before the end, but all of the major plot lines will be resolved by the end. On the other hand, some minor plot lines will not be resolved. In fact, in the last scene of the last book, I intend to set a small hook for what some may see as future books. But I will walk away and not look back. One thing that has irritated me with some books is that, come the end, all of the characters' problems are solved, all of the world's problems are solved, and you might well sit the whole place on a shelf and put a bell-jar over it to keep the dust off. When I finish the Wheel of Time, I hope to leave the reader feeling that this world is still chugging along out there somewhere, still alive and kicking.

I do think it would have been better if RJ had written it, but I don't think it's fair to say that the frustrating ending is because Brandon didn't feel like wrapping things up. This is what RJ intended, and so if Brandon had wrapped things up, that would have been going against RJ's wishes. So Brandon did it RJ's way, but he did it with a handful of drafty scenes and inevitably incomplete guidance.

[Cause]

The more I think about the book the more dissatisfied I became, with the caveat that a ten year period of my life is over and I'm equally pleased with what I read. Still I think so much subtle foreshadowing(possibly misread), prophecies and foretelling went no where. I have also I think realised that the notes RJ left were not as extensive as I first imagined. I also wonder if we will ever get to see them. Maybe it would have spun RJ in his grave but I begin to wonder if just releasing all his notes and letting the fans make of them what they will (including no doubt a hundred fanfics) might not have been the greater path.

For example:

-As Moraine says the pattern requires balance, the last battle ended in a breaking why not have this one end in peace. Similarly LTT was responsible for what? 5 of the forsaken for turning to the shadow. Lanfear, Demandred, Samael, the weaver guy maybe one more I forget. Specifically lets focus on Demandred who hated him the most and who was also the most significant forsaken in many ways of the book (Morridin was a footnote but he is still the DOs chosen). Demandred was the closest thing to LTT and I argue by extension the dragon or champion of the light. He turned to the shadow because he was jealous but for many years he was a great champion of the light. In this book we see him as a shadow-dragon (shadow as in imitation not SHADOW). LTT drove him to dark side, I think it was partly foresahdowed that Rand would be able to save at least one of the forsaken. I never imagined it would be Lanfear because her evil is special, she really is broken inside. Similarly I think RJ backtracked on this one way then the other but I believe he may have said sometimes the champion of the light is not the dragon or sometimes the dragon is killed/turned (I always hoped that was wrong I don't like it) and someone else steps in. Seems like that guy would have been Demandred. Even as the Shadow-dragon he seemed to be serving the Shadow to save his people. Either way if not one of the forsaken I think a scene or two when random Dark Friend in the ranks says to his fellows Im not going to stab you in the back Ill fight with you, you have shown me the way, the dragon has whatever. The war of light and shadow was very much about peoples will and which way their hearts chose, the final battle being won by the light should have in my opinion been at least in part because many Dark Friends decided to leave the shadow.

-Shaidar Harren sp? The super Fade the DO's own avatar and he pops like a balloon to birth the DO? Why? The darkness he birthed could just have easily come through the bore that has been weakening for millenia and at an accelerated rate for years now. He could block the True Source! I always thought this was the reason Rand had trained to be a blademaster (he was as LTT as well but I cant tell you why when he can obliterate cities with his mind). This should have been one of the great fights Rand faced before he walked into the bore. Maybe with Lan's help? while Galad could have killed Demandred or some such. A literal duel between light and shadow before the metaphysical one

-The last battle was too much battle. Besides the metaphysical elements between Rand and the DO its all just swords and sorcery. As I mentioned already the battle for mens hearts and will should have been a bigger part. A dark friend embraces the light and somehow saves a division, a lightsider gives in to despair and abandons his unit to die etc. A tinker throwing himself infront of a sword to save a soldiers life even though he would never pick up a sword to kill a trolloc. So much more was possible! Similarly I think it was strongly foreshadowed and completely abandoned that Rands fight with DO should have mirrored the fight between the lightside and darkside forces. Like it did in the great hunt. Only this time rather then his fight determining the outcome of the larger fight it should have been reversed or more mixed. Maybe saw a very subtle play on this, did Rand nudge the pattern to let Lan live?

-Speaking of Lan! This man belonged at the Shayol Goul front! Malkier, the blight, the borderlands were his life. This was his foreshadowed place. In my opinion the Last battle should have been one long drive of the light up Tarwins Gap, through the blight and into shayol goul. Similarly all the borderland nations belonged here, not Tear and Illian (most of whom should still have been described as shitting their pants against trollocs). Maybe the Borderland soldiers that followed land could have gone to Shayol goul while the rest defended the border lands.

-The legion of the Dragon. They too belonged at the Shayol Goul front. They also deserved a visit from the Dragon. Just once let them meat the man who inspires them to fight the shadow. A problem I have held for many books.

-The black tower was needed everywhere so no problem with where they were but still more of them needed to be at the Shayol Goul front (I'm repeating myself a lot). The guardians reputation and future in a large part should have depended on their actions here, not saving a few farmers. We should have seen them sacrifice themselves, being heroic, dying to protect Aes Sedai (especially the ones they bonded and controlled). They were men again not weapons but that should have been their strength here. Also just one throw away line, the Aeil and the BT would enforce the peace. The Aes Sedai should have said something along those lines as well.

-im guessing it was RJs plan to cover the Damane thing in the future outrigger novels (why are they called that). Still the way this played out was absurd. Rand should have realized that allying with the Seanchan as they are now does not serve the light. The Seanchan should have been addressed way earlier, in far greater detail and we should have been seeing small changes in each and every book. The whole alliance smacked of absurdity. He would bind the nine moons to serve him! Hardly. He would free people from chains! Hardly. The midnight towers prophecy? The midnight towers themselves? Why bring it up at all if you wont cover it. Divide the land in two, the two must be as one to win? Hardly. The alliance was a thin as paper, we even here the empress say she will keep or break it as she desires.

-The Aiel were preparing for 3000 years for this moment. More than the borderlanders they had been preparing and they had no great moments. If anything by birthing the sightblinders they come up even on serving the light and shadow. The greatest scouts, fighters, raiders and warriors in all the previous books and suddenly they are light infantry useful only for hit and run attacks against the trollocs? The maidens (Rands Toh to them), the spears of the dragons (Their Toh to Rand) and the borderlanders (Their duty and mountain) should have been the iron fist that delivered rand to the DO (fighting all they while to do so) and been the shield that protected him while he worked.

-The band of the red hand and Mat! What happened here?

Now a lot of what I have mentioned may very well be sour grapes on my part, the last battle just not playing out like I imagined it should (I imagine everyone has their own thoughts and wishes that never came true) but I think at least some of what I bring up is grounded in the books. The details might be different but somethings that SHOULD have happened just didn't.

I think the problems with Wot started early and were magnified by RJs death. Some deny it but books 6-10 are nothing but bloat barring the cleansing of Saidin. In books 1-5 you can name the major occurances and developments that happened. Books 6-10 its hard to mine through the garbage to find the gems and then the last three books feel rushed. Also the timelines between Rand Mat and perrin become too confusing. When Rand says to Egwene meet me on the field in a month and then does nothing in that month (not that I noticed anyway) I feel it was just a very poor mechanism to have all the time lines meet up and sync again. Maybe that month would have been a good time to go to the Seanchan!

@Terez- we were shown that callandor magnified the taint (no taint no problem, no need for a circle with women), it had no buffer (well if LTT cant figure out how to channel it safely he aint LTT, beside half the time no buffer seems an advantage), it was foreshadowed that it was a Sa'angreal for the true power as well. I dont recall it ever mentioned that it would allow others to take over rand and rule the circle? Also Morridin did not know this weakness (he was caught in it, he marvels at adam for making unwilling circles), so who made this trap and who planned to spring it?

Also I always meant to ask you this. The prophecy Rand fulfills when he meats the borderlanders to gain their loyalty, they ask him who killed some Aes Sedai secretary or whatever. Was this an RJ thing a Brandon thing or a mix? Its always seemed to me the most forced and absurb prophecy and plot device in all WoT books. I hate it, it pulls me right out of the book every time I read it. Really feels like brandon just thumb sucked it out of nowhere.

This post has been edited by Cause: 20 January 2013 - 08:17 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I'm a little upset Faile didn't stay dead. Not that I had anything against her, but I think one of the most emotional scenes in the book was Perrin's rage and sorrow at having lost her. And again, not that I wanted her dead for any reason, but I felt that for the Last Battle that seemed so overwhelming there would be more deaths and sorrow about people dying than we saw.

[Terez]

Both Egwene and Faile dying? That would have been so much angry-young-male-idiot fan catharsis to be nauseating.