[Phere]

Sergeant, even those with guns are unlikely to successfully defend themselves with said weapon. You are far more likely to get killed by a family member with your own gun than you are to successfully defend yourself using your gun. I just had my daily breakdown over those babies and teachers. I feel the chance slipping away - the horror, the heartache, the loss - I feel it slipping away - not for me - every day the pain is refreshed - but people in general - they are moving on and forward with their lives - and we are losing this chance to do something - to make a difference - to make it harder if not impossible for it to ever happen again. "Impossible" is impossible? Well we should fucking TRY. I forced myself to look at those little faces again today - and I promised a silent promise that I will not lose my motivation - I am writing my politicians, I am making my voice heard on hyperlocal sites like Patch - if this event can't be the pivotal moment for change then no event ever will be. Ever.

[HoosierDaddy]

Kudos.

It is hard to dwell on that which hurts. We try to escape where we can, often to the books that have instigated this site.

And, as SE has written: Children are dying. That is all that needs to be stated.

Not so surprising SE isn't to the liking of some people seeing it echo in our lives.

[Nicodimas]

Quote

No civilian needs semi-automatics with 100 round drums. Why ANYONE is disputing this is beyond me.

Question how many of you actually shoot and enjoy the gun culture?

A bolt action rifle is FAR more dangerous.

All these guns are dangerous. Your not banning them ...there is over 300+ million in the states. Think about it.

ANY attempt to strip them at this stage ends badly...don't touch them. If you wanna take em arm yourselves and come for them. See the problem?

Figure out mental health + Arm teachers. Arizona/Tennesee have put that out there.

IF anything at this stage we should just go all in and just run with our gun culture. If you wanna remain unarmed in the nation of the strong..so be it. That is your radical choice...to me its kinda like opting out on surgery and advanced medicine.

[quote][Isn't teaching a job with a pretty high nervous breakdown / stress sickness rate already?/quote]

really? The teacher has the power to molest/kill the kids with a gun..will use a knife/poison/bombs/cars/etc/etc. Sorry if you trust teachers so little...you need to pull your kid from that school.

Crazies are going to use whatever weapon they have at their disposal..if its not guns it will be knives..bombs..poisons. Your not going to get safety from people by disarming people innocent of any crimes to begin with. You disarm the innocent when you suggest a gun ban. The innocent..think on it.
The perp will find a way to Murder and kill you in the worst ways they can dream up. Thats all a dissociated person will think about...Murdering, killing you for there own amusement, all they feel is HATRED. We need to look at our culture that is fixated on toture moves, video game and violence all over. We have other problems before you blame a object. Please stop passing blame from the object that commits the actual crime to the person themselves. Something created this monster.

Choose you death gun, toture, knife, bombs, etc. Some people just aint right. When seconds count the police are minutes away.

You all need to look at these mass gun shooting + SSRI's its something like a 90%+ correlation. Wow how do we ignore that?

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 27 December 2012 - 08:26 AM

[Nicodimas]

Also gun shootings will never ever end. There will always be a soft target...the unarmed that the shooter will launch after.

it will be the places where they can score the most kills with the least chance of dying. The unarmed. The weak. The Frail.

Be an adult. There is not a enough cops, there will never be enough security, nor will there be...The only rational decision is clearly to ARM yourself to protect the innocent.

Or let someone else worry about it. Try taking them for your false sense of security...I say get a gun..learn to shoot..Protect yourself/others.

There is more guns then people in the states. You aren't taking them...away...ever. It's not feasible at this stage.

I guess if you can somehow rationalize say:

M4 kills more than bomb. High mag clips make a higher count than rifle..I might believe. I just know guns better than y'all. They are all dangerous. We could have full auto and silencers does NOT change a thing.

Crazies exist
http://en.wikipedia....School_disaster

Fix mental health and socioeconomic differences and intelligence difference. Have the government find ways to make people happier..

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 27 December 2012 - 08:45 AM

[Tapper]

Those two posts will make me look for the "block user's content"/ "ignore list" button.

A bolt action rifle has a lower magazine capacity, can load much slower than a (semi) automatic and requires manual operation in which the shooter is taking the finger of the trigger/ unbalancing his grip on the weapon. Yes, it hardly jams, offers great accuracy, balance, and likely higher caliber bullets. But if you are going to tell people that a bolt action rifle in an enclosed space (as most mass murders are, and the school shootings + cinema shooting were), you are insane and out of your mind.
Furthermore, why was the weapon of choice for so many of the murderers a (semi) automatic with exceedingly enlarged magazine size if a bolt action rifle was a much better choice for maximum harm?

Thirdly, if a crazy is going to use any weapon at their disposal, best make sure it is the least lethal weapon, so you increase survival chances.

Fourthly, what you are suggesting is an arms race in which, if someone does get shot, your standard argument will be "should have armed him/herself better".
What's next, kevlar vests becoming mandatory?

In other words, Nic, you are once again living in your own little world. I hope you'll never wield any authority - the world would surely end in violence if you do.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 27 December 2012 - 08:47 AM

[Nicodimas]

Quote

Tapper, on 27 December 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Those two posts will make me look for the "block user's content"/ "ignore list" button.

A bolt action rifle has a lower magazine capacity, can load much slower than a (semi) automatic and requires manual operation in which the shooter is taking the finger of the trigger/ unbalancing his grip on the weapon. Yes, it hardly jams, offers great accuracy, balance, and likely higher caliber bullets. But if you are going to tell people that a bolt action rifle in an enclosed space (as most mass murders are, and the school shootings + cinema shooting were), you are insane and out of your mind.
Furthermore, why was the weapon of choice for so many of the murderers a (semi) automatic with exceedingly enlarged magazine size if a bolt action rifle was a much better choice for maximum harm?

Thirdly, if a crazy is going to use any weapon at their disposal, best make sure it is the least lethal weapon, so you increase survival chances.

Fourthly, what you are suggesting is an arms race in which, if someone does get shot, your standard argument will be "should have armed him/herself better".
What's next, kevlar vests becoming mandatory?

In other words, Nic, you are once again living in your own little world. I hope you'll never wield any authority - the world would surely end in violence if you do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Hyhä

1) Ok lower round capacity..but the ability to shoot from hundreds of yards and reload very very quick. They will choose there method and just snipe instead. wow. This is not a valid argument at all...have you ever shot a gun. Seen what like .300 win mag does? Your not arguing the right point here. Why are people so concerned with round counts...baffles me.

2) Doesn't matter a crazy will use whatever tool to kill. This person is set out to kill. Concentrate on the person please. Stop ignoring that part. A maniac totally filled with hate did this. I don't get why this part is being missed. We created this person..How, what Happened?.. The media/emotions is distracting you from the right questions.

3) The most lethal weapon would be a bomb...poisons.....i could think of much worse ways and getting better counts. Sucide bombers are happening overseas...the internet is right there. Household chemical are right there.

4) Yes the frail will perish...its Darwin's Law. Deal with it. Evolve .

I am not living in my own little world..I am living in our world. Our world has 300 million guns. How many people do you really trust?
Your going to have to BAN all of them. I would 100% if it wasn't a total fantasy...We are going to be able to PRINT guns soon. like wow.
http://blogs.smithso...nted-gun-store/


Figure out the nature that causes the person to do this...put your energy and thought in this direction. Figure this out #1 and then move on to whatever other concern you have. your totally on the wrong areas of concern. This is a VERY american concern

Can you imagine how much more better it would be if anti-gunners concentrated efforts in figuring out ways to help people out by figuring out the root cause of these violent actions..geez.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 27 December 2012 - 09:09 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Quote

4) Yes the frail will perish...its Darwin's Law. Deal with it. Evolve .

You are either the most unsuccessful troll of all time, or someone I should fear.

I'll evolve a thick plate so as to better reflect bullets. I don't think I have a good chance of evolving a gunpowder mechanism naturally.

[Nicodimas]

i wouldn't fear Hoosier


I would just ask yourself..how does stripping these weapons make you safer. Thats it.

If you can explain this or anyone..i'd love to hear. I want actually rationalizations and gun knowledge thrown at me..someone who has cognitive insight not this rhetoric. The thing is the people arguing this don't have a freaking clue and that is why this weapons system is so menacing. Deal with on the American angle please. We have a totally different way of life.

Wrong solution..figure out Crazies first. #1.

Quote

I'll evolve a thick plate so as to better reflect bullets. I don't think I have a good chance of evolving a gunpowder mechanism naturally.

This would be awesome. Resurrection also..that would make reality..that much more fun.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 27 December 2012 - 09:18 AM

[Tapper]

Nicodimas, on 27 December 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Quote

Tapper, on 27 December 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Those two posts will make me look for the "block user's content"/ "ignore list" button.

A bolt action rifle has a lower magazine capacity, can load much slower than a (semi) automatic and requires manual operation in which the shooter is taking the finger of the trigger/ unbalancing his grip on the weapon. Yes, it hardly jams, offers great accuracy, balance, and likely higher caliber bullets. But if you are going to tell people that a bolt action rifle in an enclosed space (as most mass murders are, and the school shootings + cinema shooting were), you are insane and out of your mind.
Furthermore, why was the weapon of choice for so many of the murderers a (semi) automatic with exceedingly enlarged magazine size if a bolt action rifle was a much better choice for maximum harm?

Thirdly, if a crazy is going to use any weapon at their disposal, best make sure it is the least lethal weapon, so you increase survival chances.

Fourthly, what you are suggesting is an arms race in which, if someone does get shot, your standard argument will be "should have armed him/herself better".
What's next, kevlar vests becoming mandatory?

In other words, Nic, you are once again living in your own little world. I hope you'll never wield any authority - the world would surely end in violence if you do.

http://en.wikipedia....

1) Ok lower round capacity..but the ability to shoot from hundreds of yards and reload very very quick. They will choose there method and just snipe instead. wow. This is not a valid argument at all...have you ever shot a gun. Seen what like .300 win mag does? Your not arguing the right point here. Why are people so concerned with round counts...baffles me.

How many shootings resulting in over 4 casualties (the definition of a mass shooting) have taken place in which the perp shot from over a hundred yards with a bolt action rifle?
By contrast, how many resulting in over 4 casualties (the definition of a mass shooting) have taken place in which the perp shot from up close with an automatic/ semi-automatic?

Quote

2) Doesn't matter a crazy will use whatever tool to kill. This person is set out to kill. Concentrate on the person please. Stop ignoring that part. A maniac totally filled with hate did this. I don't get why this part is being missed. We created this person..How, what.. The media/emotions is distracting you from the right questions.

Bullshit. The last bombing in the States with lethal effects was, what, Timothy McVeigh in 1995? There was a bombing of a mosque with a pipebomb in 2009, and in 2011 a defused bombing during a parade. The thing with a bomb is: you can usually discover them. People also don't make bombs in a pique of rage, where they may pull a gun.
By contrast, how many gun related incidents with fatalities have there been?
Yes, a gun is a tool that requires someone to pull the trigger. Even so, it is highly lethal, hard to defend against, and therefore the weapon of choice for whomever wants to kill someone else. The most effective disarmament is that of the weapon of choice.

Quote

3) The most lethal weapon would be a bomb...poisons.....i could think of much worse ways and getting better counts. Sucide bombers are happening overseas...the internet is right there. Household chemical are right there.

Quote

4) Yes the frail will perish...its Darwin's Law. Deal with it. Evolve .

Nic, do realize that this can easily be strawmanned into you saying that the people who got shot at the schools and the cinema deserved to perish because they were weak. And while you probably don't mean that, how many frail people do you want to perish?

Quote

I am not living in my own little world..I am living in our world. Our world has 300 million guns. How many people do you really trust?

I trust 99.9% of people to stick to the law. And even then I am being unkind of the statistics as the remaining 0.01% of these people may be criminal, but won't be a murderer (or won't move in my social circles).

Quote

Your going to have to BAN all of them. I would 100% if it wasn't a total fantasy...

No you don't. Look at what people have posted so far, how the statistics are, et cetera. There are plenty of countries elsewhere in the world where guns are allowed, but gun crimes/killings are much less frequent. And then were not even talking about the amount of people locked up in the prison institutions.

Quote

Figure out the nature that causes the person to do this...put your energy and thought in this direction. Figure this out #1 and then move on to whatever other concern you have. your totally on the wrong areas of concern. This is a VERY american concern

How can you figure such things out when research is being blocked consistently at the insistence of the NRA?

[Obdigore]

Nicodimas, on 27 December 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Quote

No civilian needs semi-automatics with 100 round drums. Why ANYONE is disputing this is beyond me.

Question how many of you actually shoot and enjoy the gun culture?

I do.

Quote

A bolt action rifle is FAR more dangerous.

To a single or small group of people. The time required to work the bolt to chamber another round and reset the firing pin, although it can take seconds at most, is less rounds flying at tightly packed fleeing people.

Quote

All these guns are dangerous. Your not banning them ...there is over 300+ million in the states. Think about it.

No one has suggested seriously banning all firearms in the US. In fact the current suggested bill has over 800 exceptions for current weapons, it is mainly about preventing new sales of high powered semi automatic rifles that can accept large magazines, and outlawing the sale of such large magazines.

Quote

ANY attempt to strip them at this stage ends badly...don't touch them. If you wanna take em arm yourselves and come for them. See the problem?

Again, no one is 'comming for your guns'. Your Onion-like fear is noted.
http://www.theonion....his-guns,30638/

Quote

Figure out mental health + Arm teachers. Arizona/Tennesee have put that out there.

We have mental health. But certain groups (ironically the NRA is one of them) fight against anything like requiring mental health examinations before purchasing a firearm or anything like a single payer system so people with problems that may not have the money to see a shrink can. And no, arming teachers is easily the stupidest thing that has been suggested. I still find it ironic that the same people who whine about the power of teaching unions, and 'union thugs', want to force them to have firearms.

Quote

IF anything at this stage we should just go all in and just run with our gun culture. If you wanna remain unarmed in the nation of the strong..so be it. That is your radical choice...to me its kinda like opting out on surgery and advanced medicine.

No, it is more like banning asbestos for insulation because, although it is great insulation and protection for your home, it also kills people.

Quote

Quote

[Isn't teaching a job with a pretty high nervous breakdown / stress sickness rate already?

really? The teacher has the power to molest/kill the kids with a gun..will use a knife/poison/bombs/cars/etc/etc. Sorry if you trust teachers so little...you need to pull your kid from that school.

I'm sorry, but what? The goal of the current legislation is to prevent the amount of people who are killed during 'mass shootings' by forcing more time between shots and more time reloading. That is a laudable goal that does nothing to prevent you from defending yourself.

Quote

Crazies are going to use whatever weapon they have at their disposal..if its not guns it will be knives..bombs..poisons. Your not going to get safety from people by disarming people innocent of any crimes to begin with. You disarm the innocent when you suggest a gun ban. The innocent..think on it.
The perp will find a way to Murder and kill you in the worst ways they can dream up. Thats all a dissociated person will think about...Murdering, killing you for there own amusement, all they feel is HATRED. We need to look at our culture that is fixated on toture moves, video game and violence all over. We have other problems before you blame a object. Please stop passing blame from the object that commits the actual crime to the person themselves. Something created this monster.

Do you know the difference between ease of killing multiple people with firearms and explosives or poison? I guarantee if you look up the FBI stats book (oh wait, I just did -> http://www.fbi.gov/a...les/10tbl20.xls ) on cause of death, you will realize that firearms are by far and away the 'easiest' way of killing someone. Why are you, Nico, against making the murder of innocents harder?

Quote

Choose you death gun, toture, knife, bombs, etc. Some people just aint right. When seconds count the police are minutes away.

You all need to look at these mass gun shooting + SSRI's its something like a 90%+ correlation. Wow how do we ignore that?

Who is ignoring it? Numerous people have suggested we make one of the 'costs of gun ownership' a mental health check that verifies you don't have depression or a problem disginguishing reality from fantasy. Guess who fought that? The NRA.

Quite frankly Nico, despite your statement about 'strong being in charge over the weak' and other such things, did you know that despite the increasing number of firearms in the US, less people own them? That means people are stockpiling because they have had a break with reality and apparently only like a democratic republic when a majority is on their side. Why is it so hard for some people to accept that one (or more) of their opinions are not held by a majority of the population of the US?

[Tapper]

Obdigore, on 27 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Choose you death gun, toture, knife, bombs, etc. Some people just aint right. When seconds count the police are minutes away.

I would choose toture, because it is not an existing word, so I imagine it is instantly passing away because of a stroke while someone's performing awesome oral sex on me.

If you mean torture (spelling is under rated): there's a whole process leading up to someone attaching the electrodes to your balls: kidnapping, locking up, restriction of movement, et cetera. Furthermore, it almost never happens en masse. We're talking an entirely different crime here.

[Tsundoku]

Obdi, I see your Onion and add to it one (1) cause:

http://www.theonion....tes-more,30781/

This post has been edited by Sombra: 27 December 2012 - 09:50 AM

[Ulrik]

Nicodimas, on 27 December 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Quote

No civilian needs semi-automatics with 100 round drums. Why ANYONE is disputing this is beyond me.

Question how many of you actually shoot and enjoy the gun culture?

A bolt action rifle is FAR more dangerous.

I got so pissed off that I went from my mobile and turned computer on to respond.

Are you just troll or you really dont know about what are you talking? If troll - good job.

If not... I´ve shot from almost every type of gun except modern heavy machine guns. And believe me...its HUGE difference between bolt action and semiauto military spin-off with large mag. For unarmed victims and for security forces as well.
Bolt action is shoot, clack-clack reload and shoot. Semiauto "military" rifle is just click click click (shot shot shot). Its matter of second when you can with fast trigged clean room and got everybody with multiple shots, those running away or those trying to get you. Bolt action is much more difficult to handle in Close Quarters - and to victims it gives not only time to run but to counterattack. So...OMG...dont tell me such lies. I think you never really shot these weapons... Jesus Christ, you are trying to make argument with Winter War sniper? In case of symptomatic school killings with its specifics?

[LinearPhilosopher]

http://www.bulletblo...protection.html

Let the arms race continue! Can i get a kevlar lunchbox for my five year old kid? How about a kevlar rain jacket for kids?

[Defiance]

I don't know who is more ridiculous, the parents who actually think their children wearing a Kevlar backpack is going to make them safe, or the people who are actually profiteering off of people's paranoia to sell this stuff. Sure, it might make your kids slightly safer for about 10 minutes each day (taking backpack to locker and then putting it back on at the end of the day), but even then that's only if they're getting shot at from behind. I suppose the sellers will try to make the argument that, if a shooting does occur, kids can run to their lockers to get their backpacks and then use them as shields.

As someone who has a five-year-old kindergartner, if I'm paranoid enough to send my kid to school with Kevlar, I might as well just home school him.

I'm fine with having a trained security guard in every school - we had one in my high school - but as someone who is on his way to obtain a teaching license, I do not and would never want to have a gun in my classroom.

This post has been edited by Defiance: 27 December 2012 - 07:01 PM

[worry]

I find it encouraging to see evidence that Nico is actually reading other people's posts before responding to them in his own words, albeit with his usual extreme hardline isolationist positions. And not a single link to editorials.ModernParanoiaMagazine.org or an Alex Jones video. I consider that progress.

[HiddenOne]

seems your info is out of date, WW - that publication has changed its name

[Nicodimas]

@ ulrik

Sorry i guess i should clarify

Semis Jam. 100 rounds mags are very unpractical. I have yet to see that high of a count really..... I am also arguing on the guise too that if you ban an AR, they will just use pistols to bombs,etc.

There is probably 100s of million's of magazine in circulation. A ban would be useless..black market/craiglist would be right there.. You can't disappear them people.

Figure out the person and why people dissociate. Our society created these monsters..what in our society does this.

@obigore

Quote

And no, arming teachers is easily the stupidest thing that has been suggested

.Explain this standpoint.. I don't understand.

1stly: My sister in law is now armed..was anti...gets the argument..wants to carry to her classes. She likes the fact it would help kids stay in line. I like this standpoint as a fear based tactic it would really go a long way in keeping some in line. Open Carry in the class..your going to listen to your freaking lesson. Our school system is failing these kids.

2ndly..Schools would be less likely to become a soft target. They would choose where-ever the anti gunners are.. The anti's will get it..they will arm up.

3rdly: With teachers being armed more children would be exposed to the gun culture, which would be a good thing. Can we run a gun class to arm kids at a certain age..We are America after all and the 2nd amendment was created for a very real point. The government should really start teaching kids on this standpoint. I don't wanna strip the 2nd amendment, but empower it. It would really help in our future security. I don't see why we don't let military culture into schools at a younger age, this will teach values and proper authority/regiment.

We need to figure out why people feel the need to murder.. Dr. drew showed this recently that this is very detectable with current technology..It can be treated and worked on. It is not..why?

Quote

Why are you, Nico, against making the murder of innocents harder?

I'm not i just think you all using your time and energy should concentrate on the part that actually matters...why are you sidestepping this?

Why do we as people feel the need to murder...until you solve this I am carrying..I believe we should access to the best tools at our disposal..plain and simple.

I get that most don't agree with that here...but I really hope you don't think that means someone might not try to murder you, because you don't believe it can happen to you. Baffles me.

4x bad guys raid your house with ARs...you better have something appropriate to deal with this situation. Your family depends on you..

The world we live in is very crazy place..we need to find better solutions with current technology then banning stuff and putting effort into the wrong areas. Once this is solved guns will probably no longer be a necessity. Weird concept.

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 27 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

[Defiance]

I'm sorry, but you have no fucking clue how education works if you think we should be scaring kids into learning by having teachers carry around guns in school.

The fact that you say having guns in school is a good fear-based tactic is fucking ridiculous. Fear from what? The threat of your teacher having a gun? What is the teacher going to do, fire a warning shot in the air if people start acting up or not paying attention to the lesson? We should not have to intimidate kids into learning. You're a piss-poor teacher if you have to resort to threats and violence for kids to pay attention. Inevitably, there are going to be kids goofing off, and there will be some days where everyone doesn't pay as much attention as they should, but give me a break. Adults are like this as well. Very few of us are putting 100% of our minds on the job at hand every single day of the week.

Not to mention, if I'm carrying a gun around on my hip, all it takes is for me to turn my back to write something on the whiteboard for two bulky football players to come up behind me, pin me down, and disarm me. Granted, the likelihood of this happening is pretty slim, but it just gives kids who want guns easier access to them.

[Nicodimas]

If we could with current technology strip the will to murder/kill..does that increase or decrease our humanity?

<As a grow older the more i want to get into politics to run a program on eugenics/gene modification/technology. I could win on a platform that everyones likes and run my own program.
Interestingly I do have some political ties.. This sounds fun and being a member of the government would have its perks. like your kids as a senator don't have to repay student loans>

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 27 December 2012 - 08:44 PM