[Gust Hubb]

HoosierDaddy, on 16 December 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 16 December 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 16 December 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

You aren't going to stop people from snapping and killing people no matter how fantastic your mental health system and awareness is. What you can do is minimize the damage.

Fair enough, but I think a lot of problems stem from things not being noticed. As nacht just mentioned, this guy probably was stewing for quite a while. There should have been ways to catch this earlier than it was.

Possibly he was. You know what would have made him continue to stew and not act? Not having easy access to the three guns he used to murder his mother, 20 children, and 6 other women.

I wouldn't say he would not have acted. Just wouldn't have killed as many people. And taking away the guns does not take away the problem. Not that I'm a gun person myself (don't have any), but we are talking about symptoms versus cause.

[Shinrei]

I've said this before, and obviously as you all know I prefer to frame this debate in terms of individual rights.

We are going to have the occasional crazy who uses guns to kill innocent people. We can take away the rights of millions of law abiding gun owners to try and stop this.

The occasional Islamic extremist will make a bomb and kill innocent people. We can racially profile and limit the rights of law abiding Muslims to try and stop this.

[worry]

Re: GH, you say "the problem" like mental illness is the only one. Guns are problematic, in and of themselves. Gun culture is a problem, in and of itself. I'm glad Shin used bombs in that comparison instead of some generic tool vs User claptrap...it at least didn't hide the fact that the purpose of these guns, like those bombs, is to kill people.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 17 December 2012 - 05:05 AM

[Envy]

I'd like to profer my sympathy at what has happened in Connecticut this weekend. It would be shocking for the community as a whole and devastating for the families, both those who have lost children and those who were part of the school community and didn't lose anyone. The realisation that we wake up one morning with our kids getting ready for school, having breakfast, talking about homework, sport etc - then the next morning so much has changed.

I admit I don't understand the necessity of owning a gun - I don't believe that owning one will keep you safe. I also don't believe that the world is that dark and dangerous that you need to go armed in you everyday life. The thought of having a gun in my home were my children may be able to access it is something that would scare the hell out of me.

Admittedly I live in Australia and our gun laws were significantly changed in the mid 90's after the Port Arthur Massacre. At that time new gun laws were brought in. automatic and semi-automatic weapons were banned and there was a buy back scheme by the govermnet. Strict licensing of guns and owners was also brought in. Now there has to be a reason to have a fire arm. You either have to be a recreational hunter, part of a gun club, riffle range, pistol club to own a firearm. Farmers can own guns to keep down feral animals eg rabbits, foxs, goats, pigs. If you do own a firearm it has to be kept in a gun safe when not in use, either at home or at the respective clubs, the licenced gun owner has to have the key on their person at all times. The police regularly inspect the guns held at homes and at clubs to ensure that they are accounted for.

I know at the time there was huge squelling from our gun lobby, but the voice of the majority of the people was heard and realistic controls were put in place.

I know that there is a black market for guns - whenever something becomes illegal there is always a marketing opportunity for someone. But on whole this has reduced the amount of gun related crime and certainly we haven't had another Port Arthur.

To be honest the feeling that I get from some of the posts is that Americans arm themselves against possible invasion from the rest of the world and their neighbours - Fortress USA?

[Gust Hubb]

worrywort, on 16 December 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Oops, I am trying out mobile and messed something up, will clean that up later. Re: GH, you say "the problem" like mental illness is the only one. Guns are problematic, in and of themselves. Gun culture is a problem, in and of itself. I'm glad Shin used bombs in that comparison instead of some generic tool vs User claptrap...it at least didn't hide the fact that the purpose of these guns, like those bombs, is to kill people.

I didn't say mental illness was the only problem. It's a major problem, but there are a lot of factors that contribute to the formation of a such a malignant person. It's not a fix one thing and solve the problem kind of issue. Just like the elimination of guns in the USA public won't solve the problems caused by these individuals.


Gun culture does have problems. I'm just saying in the context of school shootings, the problem lies more within the person's psychology than their access to weaponry.

[Gust Hubb]

worrywort, on 16 December 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Oops, I am trying out mobile and messed something up, will clean that up later. Re: GH, you say "the problem" like mental illness is the only one. Guns are problematic, in and of themselves. Gun culture is a problem, in and of itself. I'm glad Shin used bombs in that comparison instead of some generic tool vs User claptrap...it at least didn't hide the fact that the purpose of these guns, like those bombs, is to kill people.

Btw, not following you here ww.

[HoosierDaddy]

Gust Hubb, on 16 December 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

worrywort, on 16 December 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Oops, I am trying out mobile and messed something up, will clean that up later. Re: GH, you say "the problem" like mental illness is the only one. Guns are problematic, in and of themselves. Gun culture is a problem, in and of itself. I'm glad Shin used bombs in that comparison instead of some generic tool vs User claptrap...it at least didn't hide the fact that the purpose of these guns, like those bombs, is to kill people.

I didn't say mental illness was the only problem. It's a major problem, but there are a lot of factors that contribute to the formation of a such a malignant person. It's not a fix one thing and solve the problem kind of issue. Just like the elimination of guns in the USA public won't solve the problems caused by these individuals.


Gun culture does have problems. I'm just saying in the context of school shootings, the problem lies more within the person's psychology than their access to weaponry.

A crazy person will bring havoc and destruction. A crazy person with weapons designed solely to kill multiple things in instants CAN cause far more havoc and destruction in a shorter time frame.

You want better mental health care? I'd agree. A single payer system for mental and physical health care would do so. You want less gun crime? Criminalizing ownership of certain guns will do so. Tie the two together and you'll lessen these events. You won't eliminate them though, because there are so many guns in this country that these events will occur until we realize the 2nd Amendment is as applicable today as the 3/5ths person rule.

[Overactive Imagination]

amphibian, on 15 December 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 15 December 2012 - 01:30 AM, said:

That was really enlightening. Thanks for sharing.

The guns are tools.

exactly. they're the tools that make it possible for anyone to easily kill a bunch of other people.

[worry]

GH: Just saying I hear guns compared to tools or cars etc. all the time. Like if somebody used a hammer to kill someone we wouldn't try to ban them. It's a comparison that's both inapt and inept, while bombs are much closer to the mark. And not coincidentally, explosives are quite well-regulated.

[Pig Iron]

HoosierDaddy, on 16 December 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 16 December 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

worrywort, on 16 December 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Oops, I am trying out mobile and messed something up, will clean that up later. Re: GH, you say "the problem" like mental illness is the only one. Guns are problematic, in and of themselves. Gun culture is a problem, in and of itself. I'm glad Shin used bombs in that comparison instead of some generic tool vs User claptrap...it at least didn't hide the fact that the purpose of these guns, like those bombs, is to kill people.

I didn't say mental illness was the only problem. It's a major problem, but there are a lot of factors that contribute to the formation of a such a malignant person. It's not a fix one thing and solve the problem kind of issue. Just like the elimination of guns in the USA public won't solve the problems caused by these individuals.


Gun culture does have problems. I'm just saying in the context of school shootings, the problem lies more within the person's psychology than their access to weaponry.

A crazy person will bring havoc and destruction. A crazy person with weapons designed solely to kill multiple things in instants CAN cause far more havoc and destruction in a shorter time frame.

You want better mental health care? I'd agree. A single payer system for mental and physical health care would do so. You want less gun crime? Criminalizing ownership of certain guns will do so. Tie the two together and you'll lessen these events. You won't eliminate them though, because there are so many guns in this country that these events will occur until we realize the 2nd Amendment is as applicable today as the 3/5ths person rule.

Where I live guns are hard but not impossible to get (black market). As in any society, you get the occasional psychotic (known who's off his meds, a new case or drugs) that goes on a rampage with (latest cases) bat, axe, car. No one killed in a while. There are some ugly statistics on the number of people killed accidentaly by their own or a family member's gun in the US. Wanting easy acess to guns seems a bad strategy for safety, but if you want them as an expression of personal freedom in a society and think its worth arming any potential mental case out there I guess that's your choice as a society.

For those of you who have guns, do you carry? Do you train tactical shooting and drills to draw in grappling situations? I've seen some Dog Brother's video with simulations of what happens to a police officer who tries to draw while being charged from ten meters. It ain't easy. Or do you see yourself in a situation where you can see the danger coming up and walking around with the gun out? How do you keep it at home, and do you have kids? If you carry, don't you feel threatened all the time as a mind-set?

For the record, I'm no pacifist and have some training with guns from the army. I also have seen a number of gun-shot victims, almost all of them in the US though.

Oh and I don't mean to bash the US, in terms of interests I'm almost completely Americanized. Though I guess it's hard to tell from my sometimes awkward english (what happens when you read people like Erikson and don't practice speaking much).

[Primateus]

I thought we agreed that we wouldn't label the individual in question with mental health issues unless we actually know for a fact that he did have such issues, so as not to unwarrantly cast suspicion on other people who actually have mental health problems? Or was that some other forum we agreed on that?

Or do you guys now know something I don't?

[worry]

His parents divorced when he was 17...he probably liked Mass Effect...ergo ipso facto hence, you do the math.

[Macros]

My opinions have largely been spouted already.

you do not need an m16 in your house.
unless the zombies are coming, and I seriously doubt the 2nd was written to cover that eventuality. The 2nd was written at a time when a trained soldier could pop off AT MOST five shots a minute (that's starting with a loaded gun and being one of the best) average citizen with a gun, probably two. Also with weapon that reloading left you vunerable to any form of physical attack.
jt is almost irrelevant in todays world, I'm not saying it needs revoked, but it needs to be totally re-written. Y
Australias are pretty good now, tk own a gun you must be a member of a club, licensed and occasionally checked up on. i do t see why anyone who has a pistol for home defense would have any problem with these measures. Anyone who wants something more than a handgun for home defence is insane. I said it, insane.

saying that crazy people are the problem is quite frankly ridiculous in the scenarios presented, no-one has argues that crazy people can do damage if they want with anything at hand. He they could use a TV to smash someone up, ban TV? No the arguement here is that it is entirely too easy to get guns, things designed to spew death, and in modern times, death on a large scale. Effective gun control limits the persons access to an easy killing device, simple as, there can be no arguments there, people will still snap and do horrific things but the toll would be lower.

[Pig Iron]

Primateus, on 16 December 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

I thought we agreed that we wouldn't label the individual in question with mental health issues unless we actually know for a fact that he did have such issues, so as not to unwarrantly cast suspicion on other people who actually have mental health problems? Or was that some other forum we agreed on that?

Or do you guys now know something I don't?

Always good to be clear about whether you discuss things in general or a particular case. No expert, but I think virtually all mass shooters get a diagnosis, addiction/under the influence or personality disorder (narcissistic or psychopatic (not really in DSM though)) at the minimum. What is tried in court in most legal systems is whether you have a serious illness where you can't control your actions (usually psychosis) and not all have that. "Mental illness" is such a broad concept that > 10% (at some time) of the population qualifies for something according to DSM-IV criteria. Few e.g. schizophrenic patients are violent and when they are it's usually the ones with a concomitant drug addiction.

Also, the school shootings seem more planned than what someone with a psychosis could manage.

Edit: complex questions, as always I regret posting afterwards as its difficult to be nuanced, my knowledge is limited and who cares what I think anyway ...

This post has been edited by Pig Iron: 16 December 2012 - 10:38 AM

[worry]

I care.

[Dolmen 2.0]

I wonder as to the shooters influences leading up to this. If I recall the incident in sweden had a full online discourse leading up to it. In this case I question whether the shooter, who may be mid to low level as far as mental illness is concerned, may have latched on to one such online discourse?. I mean if anything I'd say the clinically insane are very pliable to outside influence and I wonder if there is a movement of some kind driving mal-adjusted youths to this kind of action. Its on the rise and I can't really see any obvious causes that led to this shooting as far as the shooters background is concerned.

[Shinrei]

An interesting blog re: the mental health issue

http://thebluereview...-lanzas-mother/


Sorry, the website has been overloaded, so I'll try and post the text tomorrow or you can try it via the link yourself.

[Gnaw]

Shinrei, on 16 December 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

An interesting blog re: the mental health issue

http://thebluereview...-lanzas-mother/


Sorry, the website has been overloaded, so I'll try and post the text tomorrow or you can try it via the link yourself.

Quote

Friday's horrific national tragedy—the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in New Town, Connecticut—has ignited a new discussion on violence in America. In kitchens and coffee shops across the country, we tearfully debate the many faces of violence in America: gun culture, media violence, lack of mental health services, overt and covert wars abroad, religion, politics and the way we raise our children. Liza Long, a writer based in Boise, says it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.

Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

"I can wear these pants," he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

"They are navy blue," I told him. "Your school's dress code says black or khaki pants only."

"They told me I could wear these," he insisted. "You're a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!"

"You can't wear whatever pants you want to," I said, my tone affable, reasonable. "And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You're grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school."

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn't have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

We still don't know what's wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He's been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he's in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He's in a good mood most of the time. But when he's not, watch out. And it's impossible to predict what will set him off.

Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district's most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can't function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, "Look, Mom, I'm really sorry. Can I have video games back today?"

"No way," I told him. "You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly."

His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. "Then I'm going to kill myself," he said. "I'm going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself."

That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.

"Where are you taking me?" he said, suddenly worried. "Where are we going?"

"You know where we are going," I replied.

"No! You can't do that to me! You're sending me to hell! You're sending me straight to hell!"

I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. "Call the police," I said. "Hurry."

Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn't escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I'm still stronger than he is, but I won't be for much longer.

The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork—"Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…"

At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You'll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, "I hate you. And I'm going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here."

By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I've heard those promises for years. I don't believe them anymore.

On the intake form, under the question, "What are your expectations for treatment?" I wrote, "I need help."

And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.

According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you've got charges."

I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn't deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.

With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation's largest treatment centers in 2011.

No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, "Something must be done."

I agree that something must be done. It's time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That's the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

[Use Of Weapons]

It's an interesting article, heartfelt and emotional. And it makes the same error that most small-L liberal people make: believing that understanding something will be sufficient to preventing it in the future.

[Illuyankas]

Gust Hubb, on 16 December 2012 - 12:47 AM, said:

Illuyankas, on 15 December 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

Held, on 15 December 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

Let's not forget to ban knives too. In China today, 22 children were injured and some may yet die from a man wielding a knife. The lives of these Chinese children are just a relevant as the American children. When someone seeks to commit murder, a gun or knife ban will not dissuade them. The Connecticut shooter is a young man with mental health issues. This seems to be fairly common. We should consider locking up all of these people who have been diagnosed with mental illness as they could be potential killers too. The shooter allegedly is autistic. Maybe we should lock up everyone with Autism.

When are we going to stop ignoring the real issue which is why people will kill others? Maybe we could induct them into the armed forces where this is a valued skill.

We cannot afford another Boston Strangler, we must ban arms and hands. Yours especially, to prevent you posting again.


Interesting word choice there, 'dissuade'. Not like having to go to the black market or past countless security checks will deter the vast majority of desparate people considering such terrible actions, oh no. But what can I expect from someone too dim to understand the concept of range?

Very tempted to negative rep you Illy (you notice I restrained myself unlike others). You didn't catch the tongue in cheek? I agree with Held that the larger issue is the people themselves and the breakdown of mental health care in the USA. While we can debate about weapons and their range of action, the point is people are going to great lengths to kill other people and the question is why and what can we do to be proactive rather than reactive.

You find his spewing of bullshit talking points funny? Did you read his second post? Do you think that restricting access to guns and improving quality of care for the mentally unwell are somehow impossible to work on simultaneously?