[Uncia]

End of Disc One, on 21 November 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Because this book probably takes place at the same time as OST and TCG based on the blurb.

Spoiler

I actually don't remember Iron Bars being in OST. Can someone please remind me?

I actually made a mistake (

Spoiler

He wasn't in OST I meant Stonewielder... sorry

Great first posts

[Werthead]

Just picked up my copy (it's out now in the UK) although it'll be a few days before I can really get into it. The map is a bit bare-bones but interesting: Jacuruku appears to be a small island-continent, though its true size is impossible to guess as there's nothing else on the map to compare it to. As for location, the map places it west of Stratem and south-west of Korel, possibly south or south-west of Quon Tali (the 'Ocean of Storms' in which Malaz Island lays is marked on the map to the north-east of Jacuruku). The White Spires Ocean which lies west of Stratem and east of Kolanse (in Lether) is shown running south of Jacuruku.

[Abalieno]

My old mock up based on yours still seems mostly correct:

[amphibian]

Reading an e-book of this.

Not blown away 40 pages in at all. It's more of the "tell, rather than show" writing.

Has ICE ever seen elephants in the jungle or ridden them? They can go almost anywhere, pushing through brush and shouldering aside small trees. Insects might bug them some, but that's what the mud coats are for. Jeez.

[Werthead]

Early world map musings (also with post-OST version of Genabackis).

[joshbhoy]

About 200 pages in and have to say im quite enjoying it!

It has more of Stonewielder feel about it. Its Already much better than OST the POV's don't change quite as quickly plus his writing is much better (still not as good as SE's). I think ICE writes better when he has a free reign over a continent like he did in Stonewielder.

Plus its fun learning about Jacuruku since we really didn't have much info before about it, bar the brief stop off in ROTCG and other snippets.

This post has been edited by joshbhoy: 23 November 2012 - 12:36 AM

[End of Disc One]

Managed to get ahold of an ebook while waiting for my hard copy. That has to be the barest bones map I've seen in a Malazan book.

[Defiance]

End of Disc One, on 23 November 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Managed to get ahold of an ebook while waiting for my hard copy. That has to be the barest bones map I've seen in a Malazan book.

Even barer than the TCG Kolanse map?

That's kind of disappointing. While the kind of maps we got in The Bonehunters/Reaper's Gale were perhaps more extensive than necessary, I enjoyed all of the information on them. I'm not that big of a fan of maps that only mark cities that are seen in the story, as it makes the world feel like it was created just for the sake of the story and therefore dependent upon it (rather than existing as a fully realized, independent creation).

Concerning the book, how is it turns of revelations? Without spoiling anything (other than saying yes or no to these questions, of course), are any long-standing questions answered? Is there some genuine insight into the Jacuruku, or are we just left with more questions (for example, I was so excited to read about the Stormriders in Stonewielder, yet I understood who/what they were no more at the end of the book than I did when I picked it up)? Does ICE explain anything from his earlier works (really hoping we get more on the K'rul poop-chute)?

I appreciate that the Malazan world is a collaboration between SE and ICE and that each of them have their own stories to tell, but honestly I wouldn't read ICE if it wasn't for SE. I'm not one of the people who thinks that he's a terrible writer; it's just that there's so much stuff out there to read that's better than his work. I love learning everything I can about the Malazan world, though, so I set aside my frustrations and try to enjoy it for what it is.

[Werthead]

Here's the map (we've been allowed to do this previously so I presume it's still okay):



Pretty bare bones. What's quite interesting are the massive ice sheets to the north (separating Jacuruku from Seven Cities) and east (semi-separating it from Stratem).

[Use Of Weapons]

I'm 70 pages in, and ICE's faults as a writer are all still present. He's improved since RotCG, but I confess that this is likely to be the last ME book I buy. It's frustrating to read passages that are actually quite decent and then have them followed by cliché-ridden infodumps from 2-D characters. It's like when ICE deviates from stuff he's gamed with SE, he can't write anything that has depth of feeling, of character, or even a decent plot.

[Fid]

ebook purchases so I can browse that as a break from Peter F Hamilton

[Asharak]

Hopefully this book finally goes more into who K`azz is as a person and shows why he is considerd one of the great generals.

This post has been edited by Asharak: 23 November 2012 - 02:36 PM

[amphibian]

Use Of Weapons, on 23 November 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

I'm 70 pages in, and ICE's faults as a writer are all still present. He's improved since RotCG, but I confess that this is likely to be the last ME book I buy. It's frustrating to read passages that are actually quite decent and then have them followed by cliché-ridden infodumps from 2-D characters. It's like when ICE deviates from stuff he's gamed with SE, he can't write anything that has depth of feeling, of character, or even a decent plot.

I've no idea what he's gamed and what he's not gamed in the books - how do you know the difference?

My big thing is that he can't seem to avoid clunky infodumps or trust the reader to pick up on subtle stuff (for example, the mercs following Kallor out of expediency and some decent level of trust due to prior experiences over the past year - SE does it through dialogue, a series of small actions or a thought here or there; ICE flat out tells you that "the mercenaries trust Kallor because he has done okay over the last year").

This clumsiness happens again and again and isn't getting better. With the bursts of good writing that he puts in the books, this inconsistency gets even more maddening. I've said this before - his editor is not challenging him to fix these. ICE has not grown as a writer since ROTCG and it's because he's not being challenged to improve, not a lack of talent. The guy can write very well at times - a different flavor than SE, but similar levels of making the reader feel the experience and grasp the complexity of what's going on.

The actual plot events are fairly good. I really do like the hybrid Amazonian/African/South Asian vibe of the Himatan and its inhabitants, the "will they/won't they" dance of the desert tribe youngsters, the shard hunting detour of Skinner's four and the caper gone wrong of Spite's company.

[Use Of Weapons]

amphibian, on 23 November 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

Use Of Weapons, on 23 November 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

It's like when ICE deviates from stuff he's gamed with SE, he can't write anything that has depth of feeling, of character, or even a decent plot.

I've no idea what he's gamed and what he's not gamed in the books - how do you know the difference?

Sorry, that was me assuming what the reason was, as otherwise I can't really see a viable explanation for the disparity. The rest of your criticisms jibe pretty well with my own.

[Spoilsport Stonny]

I just got it. And I might be anticipating the Ardata parts the most...I like spider chicks.

[Malbolge]

I'm 50 pages in, and I'm beginning to regret not posting a topic here about a slightly crackpot theory I had in regards to the Crimson Guard, because I think it might get addressed in this book. I'll post it briefly here, just so I can say I did, if it does get addressed. Spoilers from Stonewielder follow (but nothing from Blood & Bone):

Spoiler

ICE's novels that have featured the Crimson Guard have looked a little bit deeper into their origins, and the basis of the Vow. We still don't know what force or power is behind it. There's one scene in Stonewielder that got me to thinking... apologies if I've forgotten the specifics. The scene is when Ussu (the former Malazan Mage that's working for the Lady) is tapping the Power through Iron Bars, and gets a glimpse of what's behind the Vow. It's not something pleasant, but, at the same time, it doesn't seem to be anything malign or 'evil'. Rather, it's something staggering, something that makes Ussu want to cry, I think was the gist I got. Something that would horrify, but not sicken, the Guard if they knew about it. The impression I got was that the Vow is somehow based on the Ritual of Tellan. There have been a couple other things that add to this, but I won't expound upon them here, and I reckon it would fit.

I couldn't find a thread about this when I looked a few months ago... but I've just had a quick look in the SW forum, and it has been mentioned a few times, so I'm not the only one that's seeing it. I'm not alone in this madness.

I can relate to the 'infodump' criticisms... I'm hoping they'll tail off when it's all brought up speed, everyone has been introduced and settled in.

[Abyss]

Mine just arrived!
YAY!!!

people have been posting spoilers here rather than elsethread, AND i'm not going to backtrack thru the entire upthread... thus...


MODGOD WARNING
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERSMINOR AND POSSIBLY MAJOR BLOOD AND BONE SPOILERS
IN THIS THREAD SPOILERS SPOILERS

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

SPOILERS

Uncia, on 22 November 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

End of Disc One, on 21 November 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

Because this book probably takes place at the same time as OST and TCG based on the blurb.

Spoiler

I actually don't remember Iron Bars being in OST. Can someone please remind me?

I actually made a mistake (

Spoiler

He wasn't in OST I meant Stonewielder... sorry

Great first posts

There's a comment early on that BAB takes place while Blues and co are off saving IB in STONEWEILDER

amphibian, on 22 November 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Reading an e-book of this.

Not blown away 40 pages in at all. It's more of the "tell, rather than show" writing.

Has ICE ever seen elephants in the jungle or ridden them? They can go almost anywhere, pushing through brush and shouldering aside small trees. Insects might bug them some, but that's what the mud coats are for. Jeez.

I must be missing something or 'reading differently' because i haven't noticed an over-abundance of infodumps.

As for the elephant thing, the point is made early that they get sick and die in the Himatan.. why assume a fictional jungle only has real-world elephant diseases?

joshbhoy, on 23 November 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

... I think ICE writes better when he has a free reign over a continent like he did in Stonewielder.
...

There's a similarity to SW in the 'different armies moving on one continent' aspect, and i'm curious to see whether it comes together in the end.

Malbolge, on 24 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

I'm 50 pages in, and I'm beginning to regret not posting a topic here about a slightly crackpot theory I had in regards to the Crimson Guard, because I think it might get addressed in this book. I'll post it briefly here, just so I can say I did, if it does get addressed....I'm not alone in this madness.
...

Not to rain on your threory parade Mal', but that's come up before, tho i don't think there's a ded-thread to it.
That said, i agree that there is likely something to that and am similarly curious to see where ICE goes with it.

[Pig Iron]

Read about half. I like ICE's characters in all of the books, and always enjoy sort of a lighter soujourn on Wu. Also the unfolding (no spoiler or surprise if youve read the other ICE's) Light-Liosan-Triss-Ardata-Avowed-Disavowed-Crippled God plot has me hooked.

[amphibian]

Abyss, on 26 November 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

I must be missing something or 'reading differently' because i haven't noticed an over-abundance of infodumps.

They're there for the looking. Once I'm done with the book, I'll spot out the first few in the initial 50 pages. It's really a shame that he falls into this when there's sections like Spite vs. Anaconda or Kallor discussing the voodoo sorcerers with the Adwami prince. Those sections are terrifically cracking, have a great mood and show, rather than tell, what's happening, why it's happening and how the characters react to it.

[tiam]

Got it saturday night but only jst finished it now as the pesky gf was over distracting me. No spoilers but i feel

Spoiler

exactly how i felt when i read sw - thoroughly underwhelmed and strung along for a big pay off that never came, imo atleast. Ice is really putting all his eggs in one basket with this future assail novel and i really hope he pulls it off. Atm hes simply doing things without giving a reason. The kazz plotline is such a long stretch of being strung along with tidbits of information without ever explaining anything that i could have been watching an episode of lost.

Dont get me wrong i enjoyed it for the first two thirds but it just doesnt pay off like with sw, which admittedly was alot better on a reread.

Assail better be the greatest malazan book of all time or ice has really wasted alot of words.

MODGOD NOTICE OF SPOILER BLOCKS ADDED
as we're pushing the limits of a 'just got it' thread now.
If you want to discuss your feelings about the whole book, start a new thread.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 26 November 2012 - 08:36 PM