[Cougar]

Well, I started it yesterday and so far I'm enjoying it. I appreciate that a lot of you liked SE's style, but I think constantly comparing ICE to him is futile. I don't read Charles Dickens and constantly lament the fact that he isn't James Joyce, but they are writing in the same world. The info dumps thing...well, it's personal taste isn't it. In the OST thread we've got Apt complaining that ICE is (like SE) too oblique and doesn't reveal enough, so keeping everyone happy - especially a group of fans who display a very high level of critique, attachment and indeed, entitlement - is impossible.

I decided to finally tackle Stonewielder and OST last week and finished them last Friday and I think ICE is a good, if workmanlike fantasy writer now. Most of the negative comparisions I read here seem to be to do with him not being Steve. An accusation that, whilst being true, seems rather redundant to me. At least ICE hasn't become self obsessed enough to constantly present us with what one of our mutal aquaintances calls 'the two wise villagers' and I'd rather call 'do I give a shit about Widershins' existential crisis?'

As to the book; I certainly agree that Malboge's theory is a good bit of speculation on the nature of the vow and I thought the same myself when I read the aforementioned scene in Stonewielder.

I'd also like to back the modkitty up on his observations about elephants. If it was a real world description then I'd point out that the Indian armies of the past used elephants in dense jungle to good effect. However, it's not India it's some mental jungle concocted by ICE and SE and as such you really should just take the characters' word for it. Picking at such small things really reeks of trying to find fault in something you've already decided you don't like - let's not have the TtH ending 'realistic' argument again.

This final question of 'pay off' makes me wonder what people really expect. On one hand we have people compaining about show and tell on the other individuals wanting massive reckonings between asendant powers. Tell me, where was the 'pay off' in the Fellowship of the Ring, where was the payoff in any of the last few GRRM efforts etc? Yes, there were big endings in MoI and tCG, but there were equally long sections of Steve's work which define the notion of wasting words, if by wasting words you mean not getting to the point and linear storytelling. We had similar comments about Midnight Tides back in the day, but that sorted itself out. ICE might not manage it, but he could blow your mind. More likely we'll end up with a satisfactory conclusion, with many questions left unanswered as per usual. For my part, I'm interested in the world, if everything isn't explained then I can live with it. I can also live with a story being a bit of a tangent if it's a story I enjoy. I didn't enjoy the Snake or the Dying God sequences in SE and so I feel they were rather surplus - they had no point and no enjoyment for me - yet the Red Mask story in RG was a little dull, but necessary. In short, if you expect everything to drive towards a linear point of pay-off both SE and ICE are going to piss you off, so don't bother reading. If you can accept a decent storyline, that goes off at a tangent then you'll be fine, so long as you accept that sometimes the author might fuck it up.

[amphibian]

I rather enjoyed the Snake and the Dying God sequences. I also very much understand that the details serve the story to a great degree.

Furthermore, my criticisms of ICE have become untethered from SE. They are their own persons and write differently. They have their pros and cons and I've enough sense to know that.

If you don't want to listen to me, you don't have to. However, I do provide more substantive criticism than "I don't like this." I also do not nitpick endlessly or trash authors just to preserve my own notions. Quite a bit of my personal and professional life revolves around constantly testing things in the crucibles of pressure and need and I try very hard to not be a jerk just to be a jerk.

However, there are problems with ICE's writing that have been apparent from Night of Knives onwards and some are not getting fixed, despite greater resources, more lead time and the attachment of the Erikson Malazan series as a companion and example.

[Malbolge]

I'm about 2/3rds in, and I'm really enjoying this now, after the first 50 or so pages and everyone was introduced (and the 'infodump' bits dropped off). It certainly has its own 'flavour' - hinted at in the acknowledgements I thought. I also had a bit of a GotM moment... about halfway through something clicked, things fell into place and a lot of the characters etc. started making more sense. I'm enjoying all of the story lines... although I have some reservations about Saeng... they're mostly solid and interesting, with just enough tugging at the curtains to reveal what's behind it all, just enough hints and reveals to tie it all back to the main Malazan world. And I'm thinking what we're being told about the Warlord is going to be something quite revelatory.

It isn't ICE's best (which I happen to think is OST), and it isn't flawless (though I think some of these may just be down to the style/'flavour' ICE is going for), and there are some things I don't like (might just be personal taste though). But on the whole, I'd give it thumbs up.

Also... on that theory I posted earlier (I'll wrap this in spoilers, though there's nothing too big here)...

Spoiler

There's even more here that seems to be pointing towards the Vow being something to do with Tellan, and, I reckon, Thyrlan is going to get involved... hence Osserc being around. Maybe Tellan can't be used, as there are already T'lan Imass, and so Thyrlan is needed, to make Thyrlan Humans, and their Vow will be shifted over to that power. Somehow. The two are related in some ways.

[blindboy75]

Hello everyone, hope you'll forgive the dense question from a newbie forum member.

I've just finished OST (which I thought was the best ICE book to date) and am now wondering whether to go straight on to Blood and Bone or carry on with my first read of Dust of Dreams/The Crippled God (I've already read through to TTH and the other ICE books).

Anyone got any thoughts on reading order? Or does it really not matter?

Thanks in advance!

[Defiance]

To be fair, Cougar, The Fellowship of the Ring isn't even a book. The Lord of the Rings is the book; it was just split into 3 parts because publishers at that time wouldn't put out a book that big.

It is true that ICE is under the shadow of SE for a lot of people. I think it's inevitable given that they're writing in the same world, and as a result there are always going to be people saying to themselves "that was good, but I think SE would have done it way better."

Personally, my biggest problem with ICE has been the lack of explanation. I'm not someone who wants everything explained, as I enjoy a good bit of mystery as it keeps my invested in the world long after I've turned the final page. But when an entire book puts a certain thing in focus, then fails to ever tell me anything about them (the Stormriders), I find it to be incredibly frustrating. It makes the Stormriders feel like a convinient plot device to highlight other things, such as the Stormwall and the fact that there are 3 Crippled God pieces in the land. It's something that frustrated me about an otherwise pretty good book, especially since I don't anticipate ever getting an answer in the future. I'll draw the comparison to Erikson's Gardens of the Moon. I enjoyed the book the first time I read it, but the Azath popping up was complete deus ex machina (no, the fact that it appeared in a poem a few pages before it emerged does not excuse its random apperance). This was later explained in Deadhouse Gates, much to my relief. However, I still do hold it as a weakness of Gardens of the Moon when the book is taken just by itself.

I suppose part of this does stem from SE, though. There are obviously some things leftover from his series, and when ICE takes them over I expect (perhaps wrongly so) some answers. When the Stormriders were mentioned in Book of the Fallen, though, I wasn't upset that I didn't know who they were, as it was a side detail that added some complexity to the world (showing that things happen offscreen). But when they appear at the forefront of an ICE book, well, as I said I expect some answers (especially since we'd seen some of them in Night of Knives).

[Abyss]

blindboy75, on 27 November 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Hello everyone, hope you'll forgive the dense question from a newbie forum member.

I've just finished OST (which I thought was the best ICE book to date) and am now wondering whether to go straight on to Blood and Bone or carry on with my first read of Dust of Dreams/The Crippled God (I've already read through to TTH and the other ICE books).

Anyone got any thoughts on reading order? Or does it really not matter?

Thanks in advance!

DoD/TCG, then go to BaB.

Not that there seems to be much in the way of MBF spoilers in BaB that you haven't already figured out from OST and earlier, but as a fan you owe it to yourself to get to DoD/TCG ASAP. Then you have BaB and FoD to take the edge off.

Btw, you're risking spoilers by checking this subforum. Usually a good idea to stick to the forums of books you've already read.

[amphibian]

blindboy75, on 27 November 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

I've just finished OST (which I thought was the best ICE book to date) and am now wondering whether to go straight on to Blood and Bone or carry on with my first read of Dust of Dreams/The Crippled God (I've already read through to TTH and the other ICE books).

The in-Malazan-universe timing of Blood and Bone means that you can indeed read it now without anything going wrong.

It kind of depends on which set of characters and storylines you're hungry for right now. There's a bit more immediate continuity with B&B, but perhaps jumping back to the main series before B&B might keep things more vividly alive for you. I can't decide for you, but I think you're okay going either way.

[Asharak]

blindboy75, on 27 November 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

Hello everyone, hope you'll forgive the dense question from a newbie forum member.

I've just finished OST (which I thought was the best ICE book to date) and am now wondering whether to go straight on to Blood and Bone or carry on with my first read of Dust of Dreams/The Crippled God (I've already read through to TTH and the other ICE books).

Anyone got any thoughts on reading order? Or does it really not matter?

Thanks in advance!

Im only 70 pages In, but this book starts pretty much at the same point in time as Stonewielder starts, so It happens before TCG in the timeline, if nothing else.

[Cougar]

amphibian, on 27 November 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Furthermore, my criticisms of ICE have become untethered from SE. They are their own persons and write differently. They have their pros and cons and I've enough sense to know that.

It's fine if you feel that you've expressed this position,, but the things you have actually typed here make it appear otherwise.

amphibian, on 27 November 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

If you don't want to listen to me, you don't have to. However, I do provide more substantive criticism than "I don't like this."

Thank you, very decent of you. I feel your criticism runs to exactly 'I don't like this', is strongly multi-vocal and rarely actually addresses the problems you hint at. A criticism, I might add, that I sought to level at the general tone of the discussion on ICE, rather than merely you.

amphibian, on 27 November 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

I also do not nitpick endlessly or trash authors just to preserve my own notions.

Well then, the problem clearly lies in the discrepancy between what is in your head and what comes out on the page, because I'm reading a lot of (frequently contradictory) nitpicking.

amphibian, on 27 November 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Quite a bit of my personal and professional life revolves around constantly testing things in the crucibles of pressure and need and I try very hard to not be a jerk just to be a jerk.

I'm not certain what relevance your personal and professional crucibles of pressure have in this discussion - I'll probably hold off on telling you what my job invovles too. Indeed, teh above seems dangerously close to a fallacious appeal to authority (though not quite) since you're telling me (I think, I can't make head nor tail of the last part of the sentence -apologies) that you have all the experience and mental tools to make complex criticisms, yet you then (at least to my eye) haven't actually made use of said faculties. Once again, I can only go on what you've written in the past.

amphibian, on 27 November 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

However, there are problems with ICE's writing that have been apparent from Night of Knives onwards and some are not getting fixed, despite greater resources, more lead time and the attachment of the Erikson Malazan series as a companion and example.

OK, so what are they? As I said, my previous post, whilst self-evdiently adressing you as one of a group, was not exclusively dedicated to your posts so I certainly didn't mean to imply that you alone were at fault.

As for the point about the Return of the King, fair one, but I could pick out loads of books that don't have climactic endings or 'pay-offs' and are still regarded as good. As Steve said, DoD and tCG were really one book written as two, so TBF it doesn't matter that the LotR was MEANT to be one book it still has 3.

Overall, to reiterate my point, the bottom line is that I feel that there is a special level of criticism being reserved for ICE on here that comes from little more than him not being Steve. He's no great writer, but then at least he doesn't think he's James Joyce like Erikson does, and I think viewing him with a greater degree of detachment from our fanboy love of SE reveals he's a decent author writing workmanlike, entertaining pieces of fantasy in a world we're all fond of. He seems to know his limitations, and as Abyss commented some time ago, his writing does show significant development in OST especially when depicting characters that are well know via Steve (say Kruppe or Coll, who's characters seemed very consistent both linguistically and in their stated motivations with SE).

[joshbhoy]

Right ive got about 150 pages to go and have to say ive enjoyed it more than i expected. I wouldn't want to tumble into Himatan thats for sure!

General comments (Spoilers for most of book)

Spoiler

Ive enjoyed the Kallor plot and how he is using the Adwami (poor Prince Jatal).

Generally learning about Himatan and the spirits etc

Learning about the Yakshaka and the human origins of them

Also I assume we will meet Ardata and hopefully she or Osserc take Kallor down a couple of pegs.

The Saeng plot line so far has been rather bland but hopefully comes together

Anyway so far I have enjoyed it and have found that ICE's writing has improved and he no longer changer POV every 3 pages which helps with the characterisation. I do feel that ICE writes better with the free reign of a continent and other than Assail Jacuruku is the continent we know least about so its good to find out a proper bit about it rather than rumours and the one brief visit we get.

The only real grumble so far i have is the fact the map is hardly detailed although reading the book the Thaumaturg lands seems rather unoccupied by towns etc. Still though a bit more detail would be nice!

Anyway so far i have enjoyed it and now this is out of the way we can look forward to Assail!

[Illuyankas]

Best thing is? THERE'S NO KYLE-TYPE BRAND SPANKING NEW GUY POV IN THE WHOLE BOOK! REJOICE YE WEARY

[blackzoid]

Cougar, on 28 November 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

amphibian, on 27 November 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Quite a bit of my personal and professional life revolves around constantly testing things in the crucibles of pressure and need and I try very hard to not be a jerk just to be a jerk.

I'm not certain what relevance your personal and professional crucibles of pressure have in this discussion - I'll probably hold off on telling you what my job invovles too. Indeed, teh above seems dangerously close to a fallacious appeal to authority (though not quite) since you're telling me (I think, I can't make head nor tail of the last part of the sentence -apologies) that you have all the experience and mental tools to make complex criticisms, yet you then (at least to my eye) haven't actually made use of said faculties. Once again, I can only go on what you've written in the past.

So very true. What relevance is it exactly what someone's job is? For book criticism that is.
No relevance.

As for me, I liked the book. Still figuring out how I feel about it. As mentioned, ICE does better with new continents, as then he gets a freer hand and is not compared as much to SE. (Though I thought OST was fine). Yes, ICE isn't perfect, but neither is SE. I did laugh at Couger's description of SE's existential grunts. Face it, at least ICE doesn't have every second character spout off philosophy for 5 pages at a time! Hello books 6-10 SE!
Loved the Apocalypse Now feel of this book.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 29 November 2012 - 03:00 PM

[amphibian]

blackzoid, on 29 November 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

So very true. What relevance is it exactly what someone's job is? For book criticism that is.
No relevance.

What you do for a profession or serious hobby affects what you see, what you pay attention to, where you spend your money and time and even how you think. It is not the sole determinant, but these things do shape who you are to a significant extent. Someone who reads quite a few books, old and new, is going to have a better idea of how things compare, what technical things work and why this or that book is awesome. It helps even more if there is additional life experience - travel, variety of jobs, interesting hobbies that overlap with the book's subject and so on - in the reviewer's life.

That in turn affects book criticism because those who allow themselves to stultify in their professional jobs and general lives - as in believing that they know it all and no longer seek out new things or continue to test old assumptions - will have hidebound, non-malleable outlooks on life and on books.

I don't go into a ICE book hating it or loving a SE book. I do have a general idea, but I'm very open to surprises and appreciative of inventive or unique twists. I try to do the same with my job, my grappling, my food and my book criticisms. It's one reason why long ago I spent several days figuring out how best to describe the extremely ambitious, yet not-quite-pulled-off experience that was Mark Helprin's Freddy and Frederica while being fair, specific and accurate.

I have done the same for a small chunk of Blood and Bone in another thread here and the lack of response or disagreement is interesting.

So that's what someone's job and hobbies has to do with book critcism.

[blackzoid]

amphibian, on 29 November 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 29 November 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

So very true. What relevance is it exactly what someone's job is? For book criticism that is.
No relevance.

What you do for a profession or serious hobby affects what you see, what you pay attention to, where you spend your money and time and even how you think. It is not the sole determinant, but these things do shape who you are to a significant extent. Someone who reads quite a few books, old and new, is going to have a better idea of how things compare, what technical things work and why this or that book is awesome. It helps even more if there is additional life experience - travel, variety of jobs, interesting hobbies that overlap with the book's subject and so on - in the reviewer's life.

That in turn affects book criticism because those who allow themselves to stultify in their professional jobs and general lives - as in believing that they know it all and no longer seek out new things or continue to test old assumptions - will have hidebound, non-malleable outlooks on life and on books.

Prove all that you have just said. Especially "It helps even more if there is additional life experience - travel, variety of jobs, interesting hobbies that overlap with the book's subject and so on - in the reviewer's life. "

Books subject = Magical Jungle in this case.

[amphibian]

blackzoid, on 29 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Prove all that you have just said. Especially "It helps even more if there is additional life experience - travel, variety of jobs, interesting hobbies that overlap with the book's subject and so on - in the reviewer's life. "

Books subject = Magical Jungle in this case.

I have ridden an elephant in the jungles of Nepal and will do so again in less than one month's time. Going to Chitwan National Park. Have read accounts and travel journals like the (cannot remember title at this point in time) one of a British merchant/politician/fledgling dictator in Afghanistan in the 1800s. I have been participating in and following several forms of combat for years now on a semi-professional level. I've also written a few short stories on my own time and many, many papers, briefs, manuals and other things for my day job.

[blackzoid]

amphibian, on 29 November 2012 - 05:28 PM, said:

blackzoid, on 29 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Prove all that you have just said. Especially "It helps even more if there is additional life experience - travel, variety of jobs, interesting hobbies that overlap with the book's subject and so on - in the reviewer's life. "

Books subject = Magical Jungle in this case.

I have ridden an elephant in the jungles of Nepal and will do so again in less than one month's time. Going to Chitwan National Park. Have read accounts and travel journals like the (cannot remember title at this point in time) one of a British merchant/politician/fledgling dictator in Afghanistan in the 1800s. I have been participating in and following several forms of combat for years now on a semi-professional level. I've also written a few short stories on my own time and many, many papers, briefs, manuals and other things for my day job.

Awesome. Any magical Jungle experiance? Asteroid Avoidance training? How is your Soletaken/Diver's self-defence?
Mine is pretty rubbish I admit. I can't defend against Trake-levels and above. Etc

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 29 November 2012 - 06:09 PM

[amphibian]

blackzoid, on 29 November 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Awesome. Any magical Jungle experiance? Asteroid Avoidance training? Etc

I did walk around Boston in the remnants of a hurricane while tripping pretty good. That was pretty fun and magical for me. Probably a bit too concrete of a jungle for your tastes though.

If your point is that I can't bring my experiences to bear upon the magical or fantastical elements, it's taken. However, note that none of my criticisms revolve around the magic or the fantastical elements. I am pleasantly surprised that the Crippled God shards keep popping up as women. I think ICE's magical elements are a bit more towards the poles of immediate battle magic and the big freaky deaky rituals and god shards, rather than Erikson's fondness of the medium-sized magics like releasing Dejim, Icarium's machine or Beak's Save/Quick Ben vs. Edur/Onrack and Trull blood bonding/Karsa making a sword etc. I'm cool with that too. He's got his own thing and I respect uniqueness for sure.

The Malazan books are an amalgamation of real world experiences, fantasy tropes, RPG characters and the skills and twists that each author brings and instills into the series. The presence of fantastical or magical elements that cannot be experienced in real life doesn't prevent criticism of the non-fantastical elements. In return for the unsolicited opening to criticisms, neither author (or you) actually has to pay attention to me. Although, I do think I'm doing what I do at a better level than "Brah, you rule/stink," or "I wish e-books were priced at 2 cents each," or "Give us more of Character X or face my wrath".

[tiam]

Its all preference surely? Just because your a elephant riding martial artist whos read some journals from an 18th century politician doesnt make you opinion of of a giant worm in a fictional and magical jungle any more valid does it? You cant really say ive read/seen/done more than you so my opinion is worth more about this fictional universe.

I liked the way this book was written, found the info dumps a different style than se, i liked the pacing, i thought the gorun plotline was very good on a tangent. The only problems i have is with the cgrd plotline and the lack of answers again like with sw. I hope assail delivers in this regard.

[amphibian]

Jean-Claude Van tiam, on 29 November 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

You cant really say ive read/seen/done more than you so my opinion is worth more about this fictional universe.

I'm not saying that at all. Whoo... I don't know how you got that from what I wrote above.

I'm saying what people do for a living/hobbies/are passionate about affects their outlook and that what I specifically do involves a ton of trial and error/"Yes, that's right. No, you are completely wrong" feedback over and over and over again. Working with engineers and trying to get a BJJ black belt go weirdly hand in hand and force one to really revise approaches and techniques all the time.

[Cougar]

The only thing the lack of response tells you, Amph, is that I've been away from a computer since Friday morning (see Malazan Meet up). I'm certainly not going to respond to your lengthy post on my phone's limited keyboard.
I guess life in the crucible didn't run to not drawing conclusions without sufficient information. We'll see how my historian rugby perspective compares to your elephant wrestling engineer foo when I've finished in the beaker of undergraduate marking, possibly tomorrow.