[Nicodimas]

Una, on 05 October 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 02 October 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

Una, on 02 October 2017 - 05:20 AM, said:

Malankazooie, on 01 October 2017 - 05:45 AM, said:

Smugness and meanmess? Conan couldn't be further away from those descriptions. Maybe awkward and goofy and unrefined . . .Did you watch the Israel episode when he did segments from both the Israeli side and Palestinian side of the complication there? No, Conan is neither smug or mean. He's a goofy ginger. And people don't like someone like that harmlessly flirting with women. He's married and has children by the way.

Eh...

I'm Canadian. I am fully aware that I have a very low tolerance for meanness, but I don't care.

Well shit, that explains everything then. You are no longer allowed to comment on this topic. Your debate license has been revoked. To acquire it again you must attain citizenship in the United States.

Conan is as harmless as that first fuzz on a new born baby's head. You know, that stuff that falls out and then is replaced eventually by real hair. Also, you do realize late night talk shows are entertainment, right? They are used by guests to promote something. The interviews are framed and set up prior to the guest going before the cameras, so there is nothing really authentic about them. So Apt nailed it. Conan is playing a character. If it doesn't suit your sensibilities, don't watch, kay?

I never seem to make it to the interviews because I get turned off just by the monologue alone. Nope! It's all him. Like I said, I know that he is popular. He does seem to be more popular among guys, or at least they are more likely to defend him more vehemently, I have noticed, but that seems to be true of most late night talk shows, so it's neither here nor there. And you are absolutely right. It doesn't suit my sensibilities, so I avoid him whenever possible. I was just expressing relief that I wasn't the only one who noticed something off and I tried to articulate what it was. He's doing fine. It doesn't look like he's getting cancelled anytime soon, so it's not like he needs my support.

Imperial Historian, on 02 October 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

While you may be attempting to be funny, you are coming across as a condescending ass. People are entitled to express there opinions in the discussion board and you are entitled to express your own. You are not however entitled to try and shut down another member in a belittling tone. If you can't handle that, I'm happy to ban you, kay?

Thank you.

I'm sure he just got carried away because I disparaged something he loves.
Malankozooie, it's all good. I won't think any less of you just because you have terrible taste in talk show figures. I actually thought that Jian Ghomeshi was harmless, and he turned out to be an actual rapist, so it's not like my instinct is always perfect.

And BK, that's so weird! So when guys get groped, their buddies will heckle them? Is this normal? Because among my circle, it doesn't matter how attractive a guy is, if he gropes a woman, the first thing her friends will say to her is, "Oh my God! Are you okay?" and then do whatever she needs them to in order to help her feel okay. It could range from hugs and reassurance to getting her the hell out of there, to acting normally so she can forget about it all. Whatever the situation seems to warrant. But heckling would be unthinkable.

Men tease there males friends relentlessly actually. It’s a past time that goes back years and years. I give one of my buds shit about stuff that goes back probably 2 decades and the he gives a hard time about a VERY similar experience to BK

This post has been edited by Nicodimas: 05 October 2017 - 08:45 PM

[Andorion]

Una, on 05 October 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 02 October 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

Una, on 02 October 2017 - 05:20 AM, said:

Malankazooie, on 01 October 2017 - 05:45 AM, said:

Smugness and meanmess? Conan couldn't be further away from those descriptions. Maybe awkward and goofy and unrefined . . .Did you watch the Israel episode when he did segments from both the Israeli side and Palestinian side of the complication there? No, Conan is neither smug or mean. He's a goofy ginger. And people don't like someone like that harmlessly flirting with women. He's married and has children by the way.

Eh...

I'm Canadian. I am fully aware that I have a very low tolerance for meanness, but I don't care.

Well shit, that explains everything then. You are no longer allowed to comment on this topic. Your debate license has been revoked. To acquire it again you must attain citizenship in the United States.

Conan is as harmless as that first fuzz on a new born baby's head. You know, that stuff that falls out and then is replaced eventually by real hair. Also, you do realize late night talk shows are entertainment, right? They are used by guests to promote something. The interviews are framed and set up prior to the guest going before the cameras, so there is nothing really authentic about them. So Apt nailed it. Conan is playing a character. If it doesn't suit your sensibilities, don't watch, kay?

I never seem to make it to the interviews because I get turned off just by the monologue alone. Nope! It's all him. Like I said, I know that he is popular. He does seem to be more popular among guys, or at least they are more likely to defend him more vehemently, I have noticed, but that seems to be true of most late night talk shows, so it's neither here nor there. And you are absolutely right. It doesn't suit my sensibilities, so I avoid him whenever possible. I was just expressing relief that I wasn't the only one who noticed something off and I tried to articulate what it was. He's doing fine. It doesn't look like he's getting cancelled anytime soon, so it's not like he needs my support.

Imperial Historian, on 02 October 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

While you may be attempting to be funny, you are coming across as a condescending ass. People are entitled to express there opinions in the discussion board and you are entitled to express your own. You are not however entitled to try and shut down another member in a belittling tone. If you can't handle that, I'm happy to ban you, kay?

Thank you.

I'm sure he just got carried away because I disparaged something he loves.
Malankozooie, it's all good. I won't think any less of you just because you have terrible taste in talk show figures. I actually thought that Jian Ghomeshi was harmless, and he turned out to be an actual rapist, so it's not like my instinct is always perfect.

And BK, that's so weird! So when guys get groped, their buddies will heckle them? Is this normal? Because among my circle, it doesn't matter how attractive a guy is, if he gropes a woman, the first thing her friends will say to her is, "Oh my God! Are you okay?" and then do whatever she needs them to in order to help her feel okay. It could range from hugs and reassurance to getting her the hell out of there, to acting normally so she can forget about it all. Whatever the situation seems to warrant. But heckling would be unthinkable.

It comes from the incredibly stupid idea that for guys, any sexual contact is good. Which comes from the even stupider idea that men are extremely sexual beings who crave sex at all times regardless of context. This kind of attitude helps to make male sexual abuse invisible.

Briar King, on 05 October 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

Yep that's kinda why I posted it. Where is the line? Does it exist on the same lvl? Would anyone take you seriously if you reported it? I know I have friends who would get outraged I have just never been around them when something like that happens. All I hear is things like "nvm" use your imagination and add in pats on the back or high fives.

Difficult to answer BK. I remember when I had just started college, this really beautiful woman who was probably a lot older than me just randomly touched my cheek and chest, smiled and then walked away. My friends were cheering. Now imagine this entire scenario with the genders reversed.

[Malankazooie]

Una, on 05 October 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

Malankazooie, on 02 October 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

Una, on 02 October 2017 - 05:20 AM, said:

Malankazooie, on 01 October 2017 - 05:45 AM, said:

Smugness and meanmess? Conan couldn't be further away from those descriptions. Maybe awkward and goofy and unrefined . . .Did you watch the Israel episode when he did segments from both the Israeli side and Palestinian side of the complication there? No, Conan is neither smug or mean. He's a goofy ginger. And people don't like someone like that harmlessly flirting with women. He's married and has children by the way.

Eh...

I'm Canadian. I am fully aware that I have a very low tolerance for meanness, but I don't care.

Well shit, that explains everything then. You are no longer allowed to comment on this topic. Your debate license has been revoked. To acquire it again you must attain citizenship in the United States.

Conan is as harmless as that first fuzz on a new born baby's head. You know, that stuff that falls out and then is replaced eventually by real hair. Also, you do realize late night talk shows are entertainment, right? They are used by guests to promote something. The interviews are framed and set up prior to the guest going before the cameras, so there is nothing really authentic about them. So Apt nailed it. Conan is playing a character. If it doesn't suit your sensibilities, don't watch, kay?

I never seem to make it to the interviews because I get turned off just by the monologue alone. Nope! It's all him. Like I said, I know that he is popular. He does seem to be more popular among guys, or at least they are more likely to defend him more vehemently, I have noticed, but that seems to be true of most late night talk shows, so it's neither here nor there. And you are absolutely right. It doesn't suit my sensibilities, so I avoid him whenever possible. I was just expressing relief that I wasn't the only one who noticed something off and I tried to articulate what it was. He's doing fine. It doesn't look like he's getting cancelled anytime soon, so it's not like he needs my support.

Imperial Historian, on 02 October 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

While you may be attempting to be funny, you are coming across as a condescending ass. People are entitled to express there opinions in the discussion board and you are entitled to express your own. You are not however entitled to try and shut down another member in a belittling tone. If you can't handle that, I'm happy to ban you, kay?

Thank you.

I'm sure he just got carried away because I disparaged something he loves.
Malankozooie, it's all good. I won't think any less of you just because you have terrible taste in talk show figures. I actually thought that Jian Ghomeshi was harmless, and he turned out to be an actual rapist, so it's not like my instinct is always perfect.

There was a time in the 80s when everyone got together to watch America's most beloved television father, Bill Cosby. And there was a time in the aughts and beyond when everyone was inspired by Jared and how he lost so much weight by just eating Subway sandwiches. And within the past month a once high profile congressman (democrat) who was on the fast track to greater heights in government was sentenced to 21 months in prison. So I personally try to be careful. Hate to dust of the old axiom, but it rings true: don't judge a book by its cover.

And as an aside. I don't know who is male or female on Malazan Empire, so if my posts seemed to belittle or be mean spirited because I was directing them specifically at a woman, I am completely unaware of that.

[Gust Hubb]

So with all of these sexual harassment scandals and #metoo on the web, I have begun to grow more alarmed at the thought of what lies behind everything from movie sex scenes to porn. My question is how does one respond to all of this?

I know there is exual harassment everywhere in our society. I am aware that criminal elements abuse and exploit people sexually for financial gain. But, I have only up until recently, kept the concern that mainstream media and well established "safe" porn sites were part of the problem at the back of my head. Same thing for nude artwork/photography (e.g. that photographer scandal from a week or two ago).

It comes down to a question of am I making the problem worse by consuming said media and complicitly supporting exploitative elements?

I know with women on the dating scene I am highly respectful and cognizant of being a gentleman. I am more worried of my impact on those I don't meet in person, the ones who are impacted by my being part of a culture that uses and abuses, even if my role is tangential, e.g. watching a movie with a sex scene.

Any thoughts? This is becoming an issue I don't feel like I can ignore anymore.

[Aptorian]

I was sort of going to make a Weinstein #MeToo thread earlier but I stayed my hand because I couldn't really imagine the conversation going anywhere productive.

I think the reaction you're having to this is good. We should all try to be more aware and conscious of our actions and our relationships with other people.

However, I also think the pendulum of this MeToo awareness/disclosure thing is swinging a bit too far in the other direction. As has been discussed up and down in this thread, sexual communication is hard and intent is not always clear. What is warranted and desired attention? What is an acceptable come on or "move" in a situation where there may or may not be an attraction? This shit is hard. Especially if you add alcohol to the mix.

The current public sentiment is going towards you should never ever say or do anything that could potentially make another person uncomfortable or feel pressured. But that's not really how a lot of our dating culture works. A lot of people want people to make a move. They want the other part to show romantic or sexual interest in an overt or even aggressive manner. That's the whole reason why so many people go out every weekend and get hammered at a bar, because that's the easiest way of breaking down all these barriers and feelings of taboo.

This kind of behaviour of course shouldn't be transplanted into the work space or be abused in situation where a person has power over another, but we all move with in different social circles and we all have different life experiences. Culture can be hard to navigate and it can make us think some things are acceptible when they really aren't. I think people should remember this before they just throw random individuals to the wolves. Not to say that actual sexual offenders shouldn't be outed and shamed of course. Vice versa I don't think it's necessary for every human being to now think back on every single romantic encounter they've had and try to second guess how okay that situation was.

But if you've reached a point where you're actually worried about not just mainstream media but actual porn... I really don't know what to say. It's a professional industry. These people get paid for what they do.

If you really want to feel good about the porn you watch, like free range meat, then start buying it from websites/studios that have actual "CSR" types of disclaimers on their sites. The Sex industry is fucked up but from what I've read the good places are unionised or the equivalent there of, they have rights, they get paid a standard fee, they get tested for free, they get counselling, time off, etc. They're not forced into it. It's a respectable way of life.

There's nothing wrong with watching porn as long as you can tell the difference between whether or not this is professionally made or it's some drunk Russian teenagers bedroom.

This post has been edited by Alternative Goose: 30 October 2017 - 05:37 PM

[worry]

The media consumption thing, including porn, is a tricky thing for sure. Even where there's consent there might be exploitation. And sometimes when there seems to be exploitation, it's a fantasy, which is a big chunk of the adult entertainment industry. And people are allowed to exploit their own sexuality too. It's hard for consumers to navigate. There's truth to what Apt says: sex work is work, the performers should and need to get paid for their work, and industry regulations are key. It's not quite as black and white, in the libertarian sense, of signed contracts making everything okay though. The Netflix documentary 'Hot Girls Wanted' is a bit sobering on that fact (the movie -- haven't watched the spinoff show).

Outside of media, I think one way you can help women (including women you don't know) is to be more cognizant of what men are doing and saying, and speaking up against it when it's corrosive. Don't blow it off as 'locker room talk'. I don't know if this applies to your professional setting, but be aware when women are being talked over by men, when they're interrupted, when their ideas are repeated by men and the man is given more credit and attention.

Basically, check yourself and your biases, of course, try to notice them more. But importantly, check other men as well (not necessarily put yourself in danger in extreme situations -- but who knows, maybe that too, you're a noble dude).

[RACHEL]

Hey Gust I may be misunderstanding your post and if so I apologise but it sounds like you are saying that you are scared that by watching porn or even a sex scene in a movie you are somehow contributing to sexual harassment and exploitation of people. I applaud your concern and your goal to be part of the solution not part of the problem but I think your concern is maybe a bit much? I'm probably not wording this the best but the whole #metoo thing should have shown you that EVERY movie, show, live or televised entertainment has in some way been involved in sexual harrassment somehow. You buy groceries right? Well somewhere from farm to factory to warehouse to grocery store to checkout line there have been people that have been sexually harrassed or assaulted by a boss, a coworker, a customer ect. This problem exists everywhere and the solution is not canceling your cable or staying away from porn sites. You aren't going to stop buying groceries right? I agree with Worry. Start by calling out harrassment when you see it and not be guilty of it yourself and/or become active in groups or protests. It just seemed silly that you worry about movies with sex scenes when sexual harrassment takes place somewhere during the production of even the most innocent shows so you would have to cut off your ties to all tv, music, social media, ect. if you are afraid that consuming said entertainments means you are somehow contributing or condoning the poor behavior that can be a part of the production of them. Being more aware is awesome but your best way to help is to lead by example and to not let things slide when you see them.

[QuickTidal]

Brett Ratner is the next major Hollywood player to go down under multiple assault allegations.

[Vengeance]

I am waiting for Michael Bay

[QuickTidal]

Vengeance, on 01 November 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

I am waiting for Michael Bay

I literally almost wrote the same thing after my post...because his whole attitude about women ion general seems tailored to such things...

[Vengeance]

QuickTidal, on 01 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 01 November 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

I am waiting for Michael Bay

I literally almost wrote the same thing after my post...because his whole attitude about women ion general seems tailored to such things...

That and during the whole Megan Fox issues (when she called him hitler) he stated that he still had the video of the time that she came over and "cleaned his car" and that she should watch what she says........

That and he is a total scumbag.

[Gorefest]

I thought it's just because you wanted to rid the world of his films. That would have been reason enough in my book.

[Gorefest]

QuickTidal, on 01 November 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Brett Ratner is the next major Hollywood player to go down under multiple assault allegations.

Now Dustin Hoffman has an accusation raised against him as well.

[QuickTidal]

Gorefest, on 01 November 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 01 November 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Brett Ratner is the next major Hollywood player to go down under multiple assault allegations.

Now Dustin Hoffman has an accusation raised against him as well.

I saw that. I said to my friend that Weinstein (being that he is such a big wig in Hollywood) would be the "watershed" moment...I had no idea how much. I think it's allowed so many people to feel safe coming forward and even implicating big names. No longer fearing "blackballing" or reprisal they might have feared till now. Nailing Harvey was the big fish they needed to start pulling the weeds.

[Gorefest]

I was quite disturbed by Kevin Spacey's response to his accusation. I cannot believe he decided that it was a good idea as part of his 'apology' statement to publicly reveal that he was gay and that he had been hiding that from the general public for years. First of all, in my view that has no relevance whatsoever to the allegation (which he sort of acceded to although he blamed alcohol...) and secondly it makes it sound as if he is putting himself in a "victim of circumstances/public opinion" position ('look at me, I was so repressed in those days') or at least tries to steer attention away from what is blatant sexual assault on a minor. As if there aren't enough bigoted individuals out there already who for some fucked up reason seem to tie homosexuality in with pedophilia, hell, let's fuel the flames. A bizarre and highly inappropriate response in my view, even though it sort of contained a halfhearted apology in there somewhere.

[Aptorian]

I'm conflicted about that Spacey announcement. On one hand it's so long ago that I legitimately believe that he has no recollection of it happening (or that maybe it didn't happen?), I can see how somebody might try to do three kinds of damage control at once to get ahead of this before it ruins him.

On the other hand, yeah, it seems all kinds of manipulative and cynical to lump in a sympathy coming out of the closet announcement. It's hard to believe Spacey doesn't have a professional PR guy doing this kind of stuff for him. I can't believe a professional would okay that response.

[QuickTidal]

Alternative Goose, on 01 November 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

I'm conflicted about that Spacey announcement. On one hand it's so long ago that I legitimately believe that he has no recollection of it happening (or that maybe it didn't happen?), I can see how somebody might try to do three kinds of damage control at once to get ahead of this before it ruins him.

On the other hand, yeah, it seems all kinds of manipulative and cynical to lump in a sympathy coming out of the closet announcement. It's hard to believe Spacey doesn't have a professional PR guy doing this kind of stuff for him. I can't believe a professional would okay that response.

Turns out he's done it to more people...

And on top of that, Spacey's biological brother claims that their father was a violent, white supremacist child abuser.

[Aptorian]

QuickTidal, on 01 November 2017 - 05:00 PM, said:

Alternative Goose, on 01 November 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

I'm conflicted about that Spacey announcement. On one hand it's so long ago that I legitimately believe that he has no recollection of it happening (or that maybe it didn't happen?), I can see how somebody might try to do three kinds of damage control at once to get ahead of this before it ruins him.

On the other hand, yeah, it seems all kinds of manipulative and cynical to lump in a sympathy coming out of the closet announcement. It's hard to believe Spacey doesn't have a professional PR guy doing this kind of stuff for him. I can't believe a professional would okay that response.

Turns out he's done it to more people...

And on top of that, Spacey's biological brother claims that their father was a violent, white supremacist child abuser.

Well, there you go.

I keep seeing this stories pop up and every time there's that automatic thought process of "Who knows, maybe it's just some person trying to get rich quick" and then the next day you realize, oh no, it wasn't just a one time occurrence.

[Gorefest]

I find myself having this disturbing "Oh no, not him! I like his films" thought flicker in my mind every time. Which of course is totally inappropriate anyway. It very possible to enjoy an artistic work without needing to like any of the creators or condone their personal mindset or behaviours. Still, it makes things just feel weirdly tainted.

[Macros]

Jeremy Piven now as well