Morgoth, on 18 December 2019 - 08:09 AM, said:
The man who should have been given the trilogy is Denis Villeneuve.
My kingdom for this! I adore his work. I cannot wait to see what he's done with DUNE!
Traveller, on 18 December 2019 - 08:39 AM, said:
See, this is the part that rubs me up the wrong way, I guess. Of course you can do those things. You didn't like something that is an anomaly to you as you like the rest of the series. That's fine. But rather than go with what's been made, accept it for what it is, accept that people and characters in the movie didn't do what you EXPECTED them to do (which is the crux of it I suspect - hence why you don't want to be 'blindsided' again so you're looking at leaks) you have taken umbrage at the movie makers, and gone into it in excruciating detail in order to find reasons why someone else is to blame for you not liking it.
Is it some sort of non-acceptance to critique the movie I hated, and then tie that up with the problems of the overall ST (no arcing story, no plan, no writer/directors working together), and the future flick?
Traveller, on 18 December 2019 - 08:39 AM, said:
accept that people and characters in the movie didn't do what you EXPECTED them to do (which is the crux of it I suspect - hence why you don't want to be 'blindsided' again so you're looking at leaks)
I don't want to relitigate TLJ again, but as a small point to reply to this...The above is a broadly used talking point rebuttal to those that didn't like TLJ, and it's misguided. Firstly because whether anyone likes it or not, and whether anyone thinks they were good or not...TFA DID set up a number of plot points in story, and a few audience-only mysteries (Rey Who?) that RJ either ignored or abandoned. As such, my EXPECTATIONS (not a dirty word BTW) were that those threads would be explored/continued. Instead they are all shot dead in the water and replaced with nothing. That is a fine expectation to have, and IF you wish to subvert it as a filmmaker you need to replace it with something more compelling, not nothing. This is why INFINITY WAR works so well. That entire film is a complete and utter subversion of expectations. We though we were getting an Avengers-Try-To-Stop-Thanos-Getting-Universe-Ending-Stones movie....and instead we got a Thanos-As-Hero's-Journey movie where he not only succeeds in defeating the Avengers, and getting the stones, but using them AND getting his "happily ever after" scene. I've never BEEN so subverted of my expectations...but the directors replaced the things we expected WITH something. Rian did not. In fact, for all intents and purposes TLJ acts like both the first act of a story AND the last.
TL;DR: Expectations are not bad, and if you wish to subvert them then you need to do so WITH something.
Traveller, on 18 December 2019 - 08:39 AM, said:
And then, using each flaw in the process to try to convince others why they shouldn't like it either. There's always this 'hey, look, another flaw has been revealed which justifies why I hate it!' kind of vibe to it.
I have no intention of converting/convincing anyone who likes TLJ (or the ST in general) from liking it, or seeing it my way. There are others here who didn't like the film and often post about that too. If you dislike conversing those points, or even debating them of you so choose, then perhaps I'm only talking to those who didn't like it like Slow Ben?
And frankly, most of the stuff I've posted in the last year or so on the thread has been about behind the scenes stuff, which fascinates me. I may have one or two directly about TLJ posts, but everything else has been more Lucasfilm-under-Disney mismanagement posts. Again, if that doesn't interest you, K'm sorry. I think it's pretty interesting as a student of film and of the mechanisms that see them made.
I certainly don't believe that my opinion is about to change anyone's mind. But pointing out stuff feels par for the course of the thread.
Traveller, on 18 December 2019 - 08:39 AM, said:
I dunno, sorry if I'm being unfair.
I feel like perhaps my negativity about the film I hated, and my trepidation of the film we are seeing in a couple of days may dampen your spirits going in? Not my intention. Sorry if that's the case. If you love this stuff, more power to you.
Traveller, on 18 December 2019 - 09:01 AM, said:
It's just got to the point where for me, it's 'This is why the last movie was bad. More reasons why the last movie was bad. More reasons why the movie was bad.
Again, I think if you look, most of my last bunch of posts since they've started marketing TROS have either been about TROS or behind the scenes Diz/LFL stuff...with maybe one or two about the last film being bad.
Traveller, on 18 December 2019 - 08:39 AM, said:
Reasons why the next movie will be bad.
More reasons why the next movie will be bad. Ad infinitum.
Actually, again most of my posts about TROS have been either "meh" or conciliatory, or in some cases early on looking forward to it. I don't think any of them ever said "This is why the next film will be bad" or anything of that sort at all. I'm not sure where you're getting that.
Even the most recent spoiler post about the plot leaks stuff from TROS is not "This film is going to be bad"....its "I'm worried about this film, based on this stuff, but the execution might win me over so we will see" and "Here's a bunch of people from all walks of fandom who didn't like it and why.
Traveller, on 18 December 2019 - 08:39 AM, said:
It's ok, I'll shut up now. We'll all be able to discuss why the new movie is bad for a long time after tomorrow!
Nah, no need to shut up. Your opinion is no less valid here than mine. I don't mind being on the opposing side of the argument from you on this. Passionate fans are passionate. And we both love REBELS and MANDO, so there's that!
Primateus, on 18 December 2019 - 11:27 AM, said:
But I think you have to admit, "optimistic" isn't exactly a word we can ascribe your posts about the new movie.
I would argue that some of them have been actually. I certainly didn't set out to hate this flick, and I like JJ's movies and I had hopes he'd set things right after my dislike of the middle chapter. The trailers have been mostly "meh", but I wasn't out to hate it in any posts either.
Primateus, on 18 December 2019 - 11:27 AM, said:
I mean, you mentioned a subreddit specifically created to hate the sequel trilogy?
Technically it was created to discuss "without being censored or downvoted" not liking TLJ. People who don't like TFA of the whole Disney endeavour have joined
since then, but it was only made to dislike and discuss flaws in TLJ. This was done becuase the other SW subreddits refused to allow that discussion because the negativity was deemed offsides.
Primateus, on 18 December 2019 - 11:27 AM, said:
Have you tried looking at the people who liked TLJ?
Often. I don't want to live in an echo chamber. And my best friend likes it, and we often discuss it from our vehemently opposing angles. I disagree at some fundamental levels with them about it, but I still listen.
Primateus, on 18 December 2019 - 11:27 AM, said:
I guess my question is, if you dislike it so much, why are you torturing yourself?
Because TROS is not TLJ. And JJ is not Rian Johnson? I mean, again just because I dislike the previous entry and it's caused me to look at the next one with a wary eye, doesn't mean I don't want to see it, or that I'm torturing myself.
Primateus, on 18 December 2019 - 11:27 AM, said:
PS: I in no way mean this as an attack or condemnation of your person.
No worries, I never assumed it was.
Traveller, on 18 December 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:
Yeah it's not a great comparison I know. It does convey what it's like to have a ded thread to something with someone consistently posting negative opinions, links to other negative opinions, leaks and spoilers.
So it should be an echo chamber of positivity? That seems misguided. And again not all my comments are negative. A tonne of them have been just "here's what's happening right now" posts...leaks and spoilers you can avoid as I tagged them, so not sure how that's a problem.
Traveller, on 18 December 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:
In regard to expecting a certain level of quality, I would say that doesn't compare to building work as the movies are interpreted in different ways - they're not black and white good or bad; some people expected something from characters that didn't happen, and got mad. Other people watched the same thing, and found it believable and well done based on those characters previous actions.
And again I don't think that's a bad thing. Expectations make this whole wheel turn. If it didn't we would not be here. If Disney REQUIRES me to leave my expectations at the door, then they'd better pony up something interesting or viable in its place, or I'm going to talk about it.
Look at MANDO....was I expecting...
I most certainly was not...but WHAT a great subversion of those expectations of what the show would be about. Because Favreau took my expectations and replaced them with something eve more compelling.
Anyways, we will have way more to talk about when the movie is out and we've seen it. Good, bad, ugly...
Also, I listened to the TROS score on my way to work this morn (it's out on Spotify) and John Williams rarely disappoints. It's a wonderful score!
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
“Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone.” ~Ursula Vernon
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