[QuickTidal]

Honestly, the more I think about it, and adding in KK's comments in interviews at Celebration that "Palpatine returning was ALWAYS the plan (not sure I believe her, but whatever)"....I think he will have survived and this is not a clone.

I think he survived his fall down the shaft Vader threw him down in ROTJ, and using the dark side magic he learned from his own master (Plagueis), he survived, went into the Unknown Regions he was always exploring (he was obsessed especially at the end of ROTJ with that region of space) and is the puppeteer behind the entire ST. Snoke is his minion, either some mindless clone he's been manipulating from afar, or something else.

I think that this means that Kylo & his loyal Squadron of Stormtroopers will team up with Rey & Co. against the far greater threat of Darth Sidious/Palpatine & The KoR (I think in their absence they were co-opted by Palpatine directly). Aside from the Rey & Kylo scene from the beginning of the trailer (in which he doesn't fire on her), you also have the shot of Kylo slamming down what APPEARS to be a KoR in the forest (with stormtroopers on his side) showing that they've turned against him in some fashion. EDIT: Adding in that a big deal is made of Kylo getting his mask back, but in the shot from inside his interceptor (not in the trailer, but shown at the panel) and the forest scene it is conspicuously absent....and in the interceptor interior shot his face is cut up and bloody (which leads me to believe the turn happens in/before that forest scene)...so I think that the turn happens mid-film and Kylo and his stormtroopers (like Vader's fist?) are on the light side for the rest.

I also think this lends credence to the idea that Anakin will be present again in the finale. Perhaps Kylo, Rey, and physical manifestations of deceased Anakin, Luke, and possibly Obi-WAn (Qui-Gon too? Could they have gotten Liam back?) team up to take on the evilest badass in the galaxy, Palpatine and finally take him out for good.

Either way, the fact that Ian is 100% in the film and JJ and KK are so adamant that this was always part of their plan...this won't be a bit part, or holocron recording...I think Palpy is the Big Bad of the ST. It's not exactly DARK EMPIRE, so they're not really copying that....but if you are tying up the Skywalker Saga...how better to make it happen than to bring in a symmetry about the guy who effectively started the Skywalker family with his accidental creation of Anakin in the first place.

Also, I just learned that JJ went to the man himself, George Lucas (these were what the reports about Lucas being brought in to help were about), before he scripted the film...so one would wager it was in safer hands than it might have been from an "idea" level?

MakingStarWars SWEARS that the Lars Homestead features late in the movie...so I think that either Rey buries a deceased Kylo there, or it's where a post-redemption Ben Solo will spend exile after being responsible for so many deaths before turing back to the light.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 15 April 2019 - 03:35 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

https://twitter.com/...797088560373761

[Abyss]

and THAT'S why he's laughing.

[QuickTidal]

Oh SNAP. I mean I expected more about Rey's parentage (JJ never intended for her to be no one)...but this was just noticed....

 OhSnap.jpg (42.75K)
Number of downloads: 1

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 15 April 2019 - 04:19 PM

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 15 April 2019 - 04:28 PM, said:

Kerri Russels Mara Jade ship equivalent

100% I think you're right.

It's what I immediately thought when this was pointed out to me...since it actually LOOKS like Mara Jade's SoroSub yacht, the Jade Shadow....just a more OT/Boxy design, than the curvy version of the Shadow.

[Cause]

QuickTidal, on 15 April 2019 - 04:19 PM, said:

Oh SNAP. I mean I expected more about Rey's parentage (JJ never intended for her to be no one)...but this was just noticed....

OhSnap.jpg

For those with a weaker geek penis? What does this mean?

[QuickTidal]

More proof that Kylo and the KoR are on opposing sides...here is a side by side of the KoR as they featured on that marketing poster leak a few weeks back, and the shot of Kylo slamming on down in the forest from the TROS trailer...

The outfit and mask match, but it's the melee weapon that the KoR is holding in the trailer shot that is the dead giveaway.

 KoRVSKylo.png (542.6K)
Number of downloads: 0

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 15 April 2019 - 04:43 PM

[QuickTidal]

Cause, on 15 April 2019 - 04:40 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 15 April 2019 - 04:19 PM, said:

Oh SNAP. I mean I expected more about Rey's parentage (JJ never intended for her to be no one)...but this was just noticed....

OhSnap.jpg

For those with a weaker geek penis? What does this mean?

The ship that leaves Rey on Jakku (as per TFA) looks to be either VERY similar to the one in TROS trailer, or is indeed the same one...the implication being that whoever left Rey on Jakku...is in IX (BK and I guess it's Zorii; Keri Russel's character, who we think stands in for Mara Jade...AKA mother of Rey, and Luke's former lover).

[Abyss]

I'm almost bothered that they're likely going to redemption route with Kylo, but hey, that's always been a Star Wars thing.
Even Chopper was redeemed by the end of REBELS oh wait, no he wasn't.

[Traveller]

Ben has by far been the most interesting character of the new movies. Just killing him seems a waste.. a rejection of the dark and some form of reparation of not redemption would be ok with me. Especially if he's been working against Palpatine all the time in some way - continuing what Vader started.

[Gintokian]

That's a really neat picture showing the two ships there QT, they're pretty clearly the same ship so we should (hopefully) learn something new about Rei's parents in the new one.
As for the Kylo redemption stuff, that's going to be super tricky for them. On the one hand if he's totally redeemed that would be so similar to Vader it's kind of boring, on the other hand if he just dies that's kind of lame too.
I think it would be cool if Rei and Kylo kind of teamed up to start a new order or something, not quite Jedi and not quite Sith, cause we've seen the issues with both. That's what I kind of thought was happening in TLJ when they were having their special moments and the team up to kill Snoke near the end.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 15 April 2019 - 06:56 PM, said:

I'm almost bothered that they're likely going to redemption route with Kylo,

Briar King, on 15 April 2019 - 07:26 PM, said:

I don’t want Ben redemption.

He doesn’t deserve to be put in the same class as Anakin for this to happen.

Briar King, on 15 April 2019 - 07:26 PM, said:

I want Ben to die

Traveller, on 15 April 2019 - 08:07 PM, said:

Ben has by far been the most interesting character of the new movies. Just killing him seems a waste.. a rejection of the dark and some form of reparation of not redemption would be ok with me. Especially if he's been working against Palpatine all the time in some way - continuing what Vader started.

So I'm also not a huge fan of Bendemption (as Reylo's seem to call it...ugh, Reylos)...BUT....BUT....I have some caveats where I not only think it could work, but it could absolutely be a satisfying way to end this portion of the Saga.

Stick with me here.

The trailer does seem to elude to Kylo being on the Rey & The Resistance Side (with a squadron of Stormtroopers even)...and that the big bad is something associated with Palpatine.

If Kylo switches sides and helps them defeat whatever the villain/threat ends up being...he's killed WAY too many people to just be "redeemed" (I think his body count is higher than even Vader's)....I'm not even a huge fan of him being redeemed ALA Vader, AKA sacrificing himself for the good side and dying turned back to the light. That's not good enough. His mistakes are too vast and far-reaching.

So what if he helps and then it APPEARS he dies in combat in the finale, and only Rey knows he survived...she secretly takes him to Tatooine, where at the Lars homestead (where his familial line began) he will live in exile with the notion that he will do whatever good he can do for the rest of his life. This way, down the road in a bunch of movies time, he can have some sort of resurgence as an aged Jedi wanderer known to do good things, and the memory of Kylo Ren is long erased.

Because I agree with Traveller...Adam Driver has 100% done MOST of the heavy lifting acting in this trilogy. Whatever I thought of TLJ and TFA....Driver is the best performance by far...and Kylo Ren is the most interesting new character (Rey is fine, but she's kinda beige). So I feel like it wastes him to kill him off so soon. You can entirely build him into a grey hero...he needs years of penance and good deeds that stem from his initial help in TROS...but I feel like it's entirely possible.

I envision it like: Everyone thinks he's dead, and Rey doesn't let on even to us. The celebration scene cuts and instead of the wipe to credits we get one to Tatooine, and Rey is there with Ben and he pledges his life to the light now, and doing good in the outer rim using the Lars Homestead as a base. They look off to the twin suns. Credits.

Like that's WAY more satisfying to me than just Rey VS Kylo and Rey wins (for a third time)...or Kylo sacrifices himself like Vader to the higher cause to attempt some redemption he's not REALLY earned yet.

---------------------

Also:

For anyone who thought it was bullshit when rumours surfaced that Lucas was consulted to help with IX. Disney and Abrams are hitting it hard now that he in fact did:

https://nordic.ign.c...rise-of-skywalk

[Traveller]

The series seems to me to be heading towards creating a new group of force users; the balance between dark and light, neither Sith nor jedi. They may end up being known as Skywalkers, who knows.

Ben and Rey might both feasibly fit into that. Vader's redemption is itself a questionable thing - the Vader comics really do rack up his kill count, and ok he saves his son, and is therefore considered redeemed, but it's still a bit dubious - he was out and out murdering and torturing for years, as well as standing and watching an entire planet of people get wiped out in front of him.

So I don't think they can really expect to pull that with Ben, I dont think they'll try. Some sort of ending with the dark finally defeated, but the light not given sole attention like the jedi did, with Ben and Rey forming a new 'grey' order might work.

The prequels showed the rise of the Sith, but it also really highlighted the folly and hubris of the jedi. The use of the force was heavily tipped in favour of the light, which Anakin and Palpatine balanced through the destruction of the jedi order.
The Empires rise, followed by the First Order, tipped it the other way. Maybe the conclusion will be a true balance between.

Btw Ian McDiarmid said categorically that the Emperor was definitely killed at the end of RotJ. So flashbacks, world between worlds, or clones?

This post has been edited by Traveller: 16 April 2019 - 04:00 PM

[D'rek]

I think you're all projecting what you want to happen, and nothing in this trailer convinces me it'll be nearly so complex or different from before. I am fully expecting Ben just turns to the light halfway and it's no biggie, and then it's the usual "good guys vs evil guys, then we restore the jedi" status quo.

[QuickTidal]

Traveller, on 16 April 2019 - 03:52 PM, said:

The series seems to me to be heading towards creating a new group of force users; the balance between dark and light, neither Sith nor jedi. They may end up being known as Skywalkers, who knows.

Dumping 'Sith' and 'Jedi' would be worse than what they've done so far. When Disney bought Lucasfilm they were purchasing Sith, Jedi, Lightsabers, and Space dog fights. Ditching any of that iconography would be brand-destroying.

And Lucas, Filoni and even Hidalgo seem to be HARD against the notion that dark can be involved. Dark side is an imbalance...light is balance.

Traveller, on 16 April 2019 - 03:52 PM, said:

Ben and Rey might both feasibly fit into that.

Ben needs the light. He needs to be the lightest of the light. He can't even dabble in the dark after a turn back because it would end him again.

Traveller, on 16 April 2019 - 03:52 PM, said:

Vader's redemption is itself a questionable thing - the Vader comics really do rack up his kill count, and ok he saves his son, and is therefore considered redeemed, but it's still a bit dubious - he was out and out murdering and torturing for years, as well as standing and watching an entire planet of people get wiped out in front of him.

Agreed, and the ONLY reason it works...is because he died afterwards. It removes the need for anyone but those closest to him (Luke, Leia) to be able to see him as redeemed...everyone else can go on shining he was a monster and the galaxy is better off without him...but we as audience know better.

Traveller, on 16 April 2019 - 03:52 PM, said:

Some sort of ending with the dark finally defeated, but the light not given sole attention like the jedi did, with Ben and Rey forming a new 'grey' order might work.

This won't happen. The people in charge of canon are very explicit that Light and Dark are not yin and yang in Star Wars. Light is a still pond, and dark is a corruption of ripples in that pond.

Traveller, on 16 April 2019 - 03:52 PM, said:

Btw Ian McDiarmid said categorically that the Emperor was definitely killed at the end of RotJ. So flashbacks, world between worlds, or clones?

He only said that before IX he was dead according to Lucas. This doesn't mean there is no resurrection.

Also, the whole Matt Smith thing really still feels like a hidden secret in plain sight to me. A guy who could EASILY pull off Young Palpatine. And Smith's claim that he was not in Episode IX when he was asked if he was in it, a few months back was this:

“As far as I can tell, I’m definitely not."

As far as I can tell....meaning that he can't tell us one way or the other. This is very cleverly worded and I noticed it immediately as such.

So you could have Palpatine (McDiarmid; who we know IS in the movie, JJ said he enjoyed working with him immensely) as a voice or recording, and then the real deal shows up in his own re-incarnated youthful body (or World Between Worlds...but I have doubts that would show up in a canon main movie) and that youthful body is Matt Smith....as such you can have him at peak physical form but with ALL the memories and skills of Sidious, and I mean....Sidious is arguably the greatest swordsman in the entirety of Star Wars canon. I mean....unbeaten by anyone with a lightsaber.

[Traveller]

I don't know, I've probably been listening to too many Sith recently; have you read Stovers RotS, and the Darth Vader series of comics? But in those, the Sith are all about acknowledging their anger, using their hate to fuel their power - the jedi are all about suppression. The dark and the light may not be yin and yang, but the way the Sith and the Jedi have created rules and tenets have resulted in two very polarised teachings, which both pull a bit too far into their respective sides, dark and light.

I didn't mean necessarily that Rey and Ben would find an area that balanced light and dark; but more an order that doesn't have the suppression of the jedi (which blinded them, and absurdly denied them love or relationships) or the rage and hate of the Sith when fuelled by hate. Something that teaches the users of the force and guides them, with more of the Bendu approach.

Mortis showed us the Father - and the son and daughter, dark and light. The polarisation is right there, but so is the balance - the father. The position that he wanted Anakin to take before the son possessed him.

It's not dumping Sith and jedi, but if this is the end of the saga it wouldn't be impossible to move on into a new future rather than hint that it might start all over again. A grey order would do that. They've already pretty much consigned the jedi to the past as a failed ideal.

Also, both Yoda and Luke ended up exiled in places which had areas strong with the dark. They both used it to learn, without embracing it, rather than shutting it off completely and 'going full light.'

The jedi tenets that required people to suppress anger and fear and told them to let go of anyone they cared about, and never love, all lead to their eventual downfall. I can't see them returning to that after spending so long showing how flawed it was.

That said, Palpatine in a young body would be an awesome bad; Smith could do it for sure. It's all a bit Voldermort though!

And yes, watching him take down Maul and Savage... when he was already getting on a bit... makes Snoke look like the puppet he was.

Still not sure that Palpatine laugh in the trailer is as significant as everyone wants it to be. It probably just Bens ringtone.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 16 April 2019 - 05:50 PM

[QuickTidal]

Traveller, on 16 April 2019 - 05:24 PM, said:

Also, both Yoda

Yoda did it to hide. He was masking the location of the most powerful light side force user in the galaxy from Sidious and Vader, by making a home next to a dark side well.

Traveller, on 16 April 2019 - 05:24 PM, said:

The jedi tenets that required people to suppress anger and fear and told them to let go of anyone they cared about, and never love, all lead to their eventual downfall. I can't see them returning to that after spending so long showing how flawed it was.

Ditching Jedi because the old ways (which may I remind you lasted for ten thousand years before Sidious) were too strict is terrible. The Jedi can be modified to embrace things they should embrace (like marriage ect.) and be a new order with a new leader and new tenets....but you don't have to ditch the term/moniker Jedi to do that...

[Traveller]

Yep, 8 months of build up to really bring home the reality with a crash, and get a lot of people complaining that it wasn't what was meant to happen!

[worry]

I hope it ends with Star Peace.

[Tsundoku]

Hippie.

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 16 April 2019 - 10:15 PM