[Whisperzzzzzzz]

After talking with a co-worker at a recent happy hour, I've made a complete 540 degree turn in my opinion on TLJ. I think it's a magnificient movie about failure — Poe fails several times (bomber mission; his mutiny for all the right reasons; his grand plan to disable the tracking beacon), Rey fails several times (to turn Kylo; to get Luke to join her), Leia fails, Finn fails several times (on casino world, he fails to find the right hacker, instead bringing back a "lovable rogue like Han", who actually turns out to not be lovable or like Han; he fails in his solo suicide mission to destroy the battering ram; he fails to prevent himself from being sexually assaulted), Hux fails at everything he does, Snoke fails at living, Kylo fails (to turn Rey; to live up to his own expectations; to kill Luke), and Luke's entire arc is about his inability to come to terms with his failures —, and how people deal (or don't) with those failures.

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 10 January 2018 - 01:09 PM

[Cause]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 10 January 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

After talking with a co-worker at a recent happy hour, I've made a complete 540 degree turn in my opinion on TLJ. I think it's a magnificient movie about failure — Poe fails several times (bomber mission; his mutiny for all the right reasons; his grand plan to disable the tracking beacon), Rey fails several times (to turn Kylo; to get Luke to join her), Leia fails, Finn fails several times (on casino world, he fails to find the right hacker, instead bringing back a "lovable rogue like Han", who actually turns out to not be lovable or like Han; he fails in his solo suicide mission to destroy the battering ram; he fails to prevent himself from being sexually assaulted), Hux fails at everything he does, Snoke fails at living, Kylo fails (to turn Rey; to live up to his own expectations; to kill Luke), and Luke's entire arc is about his inability to come to terms with his failures —, and how people deal (or don't) with those failures.

Put like this the movie is deeper than I ever imagined and even worse for it.

Also LOL

[Tsundoku]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 10 January 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

After talking with a co-worker at a recent happy hour, I've made a complete 540 degree turn in my opinion on TLJ. I think it's a magnificient movie about failure — Poe fails several times (bomber mission; his mutiny for all the right reasons; his grand plan to disable the tracking beacon), Rey fails several times (to turn Kylo; to get Luke to join her), Leia fails, Finn fails several times (on casino world, he fails to find the right hacker, instead bringing back a "lovable rogue like Han", who actually turns out to not be lovable or like Han; he fails in his solo suicide mission to destroy the battering ram; he fails to prevent himself from being sexually assaulted), Hux fails at everything he does, Snoke fails at living, Kylo fails (to turn Rey; to live up to his own expectations; to kill Luke), and Luke's entire arc is about his inability to come to terms with his failures —, and how people deal (or don't) with those failures.

1. 540 degrees is one and a half turns, right? OK as long as that's settled.
2. That list is quite the Failageddon.

[QuickTidal]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 10 January 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

After talking with a co-worker at a recent happy hour, I've made a complete 540 degree turn in my opinion on TLJ. I think it's a magnificient movie about failure — Poe fails several times (bomber mission; his mutiny for all the right reasons; his grand plan to disable the tracking beacon), Rey fails several times (to turn Kylo; to get Luke to join her), Leia fails, Finn fails several times (on casino world, he fails to find the right hacker, instead bringing back a "lovable rogue like Han", who actually turns out to not be lovable or like Han; he fails in his solo suicide mission to destroy the battering ram; he fails to prevent himself from being sexually assaulted), Hux fails at everything he does, Snoke fails at living, Kylo fails (to turn Rey; to live up to his own expectations; to kill Luke), and Luke's entire arc is about his inability to come to terms with his failures —, and how people deal (or don't) with those failures.

Cause, on 10 January 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 10 January 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

After talking with a co-worker at a recent happy hour, I've made a complete 540 degree turn in my opinion on TLJ. I think it's a magnificient movie about failure — Poe fails several times (bomber mission; his mutiny for all the right reasons; his grand plan to disable the tracking beacon), Rey fails several times (to turn Kylo; to get Luke to join her), Leia fails, Finn fails several times (on casino world, he fails to find the right hacker, instead bringing back a "lovable rogue like Han", who actually turns out to not be lovable or like Han; he fails in his solo suicide mission to destroy the battering ram; he fails to prevent himself from being sexually assaulted), Hux fails at everything he does, Snoke fails at living, Kylo fails (to turn Rey; to live up to his own expectations; to kill Luke), and Luke's entire arc is about his inability to come to terms with his failures —, and how people deal (or don't) with those failures.

Put like this the movie is deeper than I ever imagined and even worse for it.

Also LOL

^^THIS.

Yes Rian, you made an exquisite movie (plot holes aside) about failure...no doubting that, everyone fails spectacularly.

But Star Wars movies should not BE about failure. Star Wars movies are swashbuckling Saturday matinee serials.

Let me ask this: These films are ostensibly (or at least they WERE) for kids, right? There is nothing and no one to root for in TLJ. There is nothing to aspire to. The ONLY person on the entire cats list who is WORTH rooting for even a little? Rey...and even Rey fails. Or wait....am I meant to root for Broom Kid? Is Broom Kid the aspiration here?


And as to the bolded, yes...in this day and age of speaking about "consent" Rose kissing Finn when the two have shared NOTHING of a romance, and Finn has shown her nothing but friendship so far....is assault. If the roles were reversed there would already be eight ranting think pieces on Jezebel and The Mary Sue about it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 January 2018 - 02:15 PM

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

QuickTidal, on 10 January 2018 - 02:14 PM, said:

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 10 January 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

After talking with a co-worker at a recent happy hour, I've made a complete 540 degree turn in my opinion on TLJ. I think it's a magnificient movie about failure — Poe fails several times (bomber mission; his mutiny for all the right reasons; his grand plan to disable the tracking beacon), Rey fails several times (to turn Kylo; to get Luke to join her), Leia fails, Finn fails several times (on casino world, he fails to find the right hacker, instead bringing back a "lovable rogue like Han", who actually turns out to not be lovable or like Han; he fails in his solo suicide mission to destroy the battering ram; he fails to prevent himself from being sexually assaulted), Hux fails at everything he does, Snoke fails at living, Kylo fails (to turn Rey; to live up to his own expectations; to kill Luke), and Luke's entire arc is about his inability to come to terms with his failures —, and how people deal (or don't) with those failures.

Cause, on 10 January 2018 - 02:00 PM, said:

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 10 January 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

After talking with a co-worker at a recent happy hour, I've made a complete 540 degree turn in my opinion on TLJ. I think it's a magnificient movie about failure — Poe fails several times (bomber mission; his mutiny for all the right reasons; his grand plan to disable the tracking beacon), Rey fails several times (to turn Kylo; to get Luke to join her), Leia fails, Finn fails several times (on casino world, he fails to find the right hacker, instead bringing back a "lovable rogue like Han", who actually turns out to not be lovable or like Han; he fails in his solo suicide mission to destroy the battering ram; he fails to prevent himself from being sexually assaulted), Hux fails at everything he does, Snoke fails at living, Kylo fails (to turn Rey; to live up to his own expectations; to kill Luke), and Luke's entire arc is about his inability to come to terms with his failures —, and how people deal (or don't) with those failures.

Put like this the movie is deeper than I ever imagined and even worse for it.

Also LOL

^^THIS.

Yes Rian, you made an exquisite movie (plot holes aside) about failure...no doubting that, everyone fails spectacularly.

But Star Wars movies should not BE about failure. Star Wars movies are swashbuckling Saturday matinee serials.

Let me ask this: These films are ostensibly (or at least they WERE) for kids, right? There is nothing and no one to root for in TLJ. There is nothing to aspire to. The ONLY person on the entire cats list who is WORTH rooting for even a little? Rey...and even Rey fails. Or wait....am I meant to root for Broom Kid? Is Broom Kid the aspiration here?


And as to the bolded, yes...in this day and age of speaking about "consent" Rose kissing Finn when the two have shared NOTHING of a romance, and Finn has shown her nothing but friendship so far....is assault. If the roles were reversed there would already be eight ranting think pieces on Jezebel and The Mary Sue about it.

Yeah, I agree that whether Star Wars should be about failure is a separate question entirely. There's no doubt that Rian effectively told the story he wanted to tell and asked the questions he wanted to ask. But was this the right venue for that? Dunno, I'm torn.

[QuickTidal]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 10 January 2018 - 02:31 PM, said:

Yeah, I agree that whether Star Wars should be about failure is a separate question entirely. There's no doubt that Rian effectively told the story he wanted to tell and asked the questions he wanted to ask. But was this the right venue for that? Dunno, I'm torn.

See, I think giving him a different trilogy where he could build his own section of the Star Wars universe (which they've ostensibly done...we'll see if it lasts as a trilogy or not I can't imagine the Disney brass are happy to have been ousted from #1 by Jumanji2 three weeks out of the gate)...was the right idea. Give him a blank canvas to make whatever stuff he wants to make using the Star Wars canvas....but instead someone thought it was a good idea to give him a main saga film...and I think Kat Kennedy has shown her directorial and writing choices have not been great thus far: JJ apparently conflicted with the Story Group and Pablo Hidalgo and everyone walked on eggshells around Lawrence Kasdan, Gareth Edwards was ostensibly overrun by Tony Gilroy in the latter stages of ROGUE ONE, She hires Phil Lord and Chris Miller to make HAN SOLO only to fire them late in the game and replace them with old friend Ron Howard...I used to give her the benefit of the doubt, but to say the Star Wars ship under Disney hasn't been rocky is a mistake.

[Abyss]

There is a compelling argument that EMPIRE is entirely about failure, and it is generally considered the best SW flic ever.

[Nevyn]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 10 January 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

After talking with a co-worker at a recent happy hour, I've made a complete 540 degree turn in my opinion on TLJ. I think it's a magnificient movie about failure — Poe fails several times (bomber mission; his mutiny for all the right reasons; his grand plan to disable the tracking beacon), Rey fails several times (to turn Kylo; to get Luke to join her), Leia fails, Finn fails several times (on casino world, he fails to find the right hacker, instead bringing back a "lovable rogue like Han", who actually turns out to not be lovable or like Han; he fails in his solo suicide mission to destroy the battering ram; he fails to prevent himself from being sexually assaulted), Hux fails at everything he does, Snoke fails at living, Kylo fails (to turn Rey; to live up to his own expectations; to kill Luke), and Luke's entire arc is about his inability to come to terms with his failures —, and how people deal (or don't) with those failures.

And the director fails to make a cohesive movie. Meta!

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 10 January 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

There is a compelling argument that EMPIRE is entirely about failure, and it is generally considered the best SW flic ever.

Except it's not. It's got failure IN IT....but it's not ABOUT failure.

Fails in TESB:
Getting discovered at the Hoth base and having to flee (largely unharmed with very few losses)
Luke failing at the cave and running off to face Vader before he's ready
Han and Leia ending up captured, betrayed by a friend, and in Han into Carbonite.

Successes in TESB:
The Hoth battle accounts for very little in damage to the Rebel forces.
Except for the ground battle, they get away mostly unscathed.
Luke finds the original Jedi Grand Master, and trains under him.
Luke's decision to run off to Bespin actively SAVES everyone but Han.
Han is not killed outright, he is frozen and in perfect stasis.
Luke is able to reject Vader, even though he loses the fight.
The Rebellion is still largely intact and unscathed even in light of the Bespin events.

Let's not confuse what Kasdan wrote as the middle chapter of a trilogy, under the guidance of George Lucas who DOES see these as Saturday Serials...is the same as Mr. Hipster DBag Rian Johnson subverting all the tropes because reasons! Lawrence Kasdan is a weathered and solid writer of films...Rian Jonhson has three written films, two of which are SO full of plot holes that even I noticed (and I'm notoriously EASY on plot holes and internal consistency normally).

TESB is the down note in the trilogy and contains failures...but it's not ABOUT failure. It's about the bad guys hitting back, and the good guys realizing they need to dust themselves off and hit back again.

And let's not pretend that IX won't essentially BE ROTJ-redux....you can only go two ways...kill off Kylo Ren (unsatisfying really), and redeeming him (also unsatisfying since there is no other villain). So either way they decide to go is going to be unsatisfying. That's not "opening up the Star Wars universe as Rian has claimed to do....it's closing it back up to what it was in 1983, which is SUPER disappointing.

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 10 January 2018 - 04:16 PM, said:

I’m not really paying attention to this stuff anymore but I’m curious if GL has said any public lashing going her way? After all she was his chosen one to lead the republic.

The most shade he's thrown her way comes off the back of his viewing of TLJ which he said was "A very beautiful movie" and nothing. Which to me reads as "Pretty, but empty".

And the thing is, he chose her because of their friendship obviously, but also her producer past...she's got probably my entire childhood and teenage years favourite films in her filmography...so I would have excepted she was a solid choice. It bothers me that she likes TLJ, let alone seems to be very happy with it.

But if I were GL, the point when I would have been most annoyed would have been when he offered up his take on "what happens in the sequel trilogy" and they said "Thanks, but no thanks" and chucked it out. That's a slap in the face if I ever heard one. It's like someone writing in the Tolkien-verse, and Tolkien has handed off his world to others to continue...and when he gave them an outline of what the next Age of Middle earth looked like...they said "Nah, Tolkien...We'll do our own thing man."

And let's be clear, GL was a BRILLIANT idea man. Utterly brilliant. All the good that comes out of the Star Wars universe comes because he's a great idea man. The prequels stumble because he's not a "great" director, and he's an even poorer scriptwriter...but the ideas...they are golden. So using his "ideas" as a base going forwards would have been at least a good idea...the fact that they unceremoniously threw them out feels rough to me.

when he spoke about the Skywalker "grandkids" being the next part of the story...I highly doubt he meant "One guy, who went bad as a teenager and became a new dark lord"

Dave Filoni was his protege, and that shows in both THE CLONE WARS and REBELS being SO excellent...he never lost what Star Wars should be about.

As far as I'm concerned, Kat Kennedy has lost the plot.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 January 2018 - 04:36 PM

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 10 January 2018 - 04:35 PM, said:

I’d like to know exactly what it was to. We will probably never know until he dies and then maybe years beyond that.

Oh, I expect it will come out sooner or later. I'd love for the LEGENDS side of the old EU to continue, and for them to possibly do an alt-verse storyline showing what GL thought the sequels should include as story.

[D'rek]

That milking scene tho

[QuickTidal]

D, on 10 January 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

That milking scene tho

LOL. I don't quite know what he was going for there...was it straight up goofy humour, or more "slice of Luke Island Life" or both?

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 10 January 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

D, on 10 January 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

That milking scene tho

LOL. I don't quite know what he was going for there...was it straight up goofy humour, or more "slice of Luke Island Life" or both?

Dr Seuss tribute.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 10 January 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 10 January 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

D, on 10 January 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

That milking scene tho

LOL. I don't quite know what he was going for there...was it straight up goofy humour, or more "slice of Luke Island Life" or both?

Dr Seuss tribute.

I do not like green milky tits.
I do not like them, with my grits!

[worry]

Abyss, on 10 January 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

There is a compelling argument that EMPIRE is entirely about failure, and it is generally considered the best SW flic ever.

Here's some professional Star Wars dork's thoughts on TLJ, TFA, Luke, and the connections to ESB that I thought were interesting. The guy is an admitted podcaster though so grain of salt:
https://twitter.com/...394363384807424

[QuickTidal]

worry, on 10 January 2018 - 09:03 PM, said:

Abyss, on 10 January 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

There is a compelling argument that EMPIRE is entirely about failure, and it is generally considered the best SW flic ever.

Here's some professional Star Wars dork's thoughts on TLJ, TFA, Luke, and the connections to ESB that I thought were interesting. The guy is an admitted podcaster though so grain of salt:
https://twitter.com/...394363384807424

Any slight against podcasting is a slight against me. Fight me, you Californian bro-sky!

[worry]

LOL I kid my podcasting compatriots! I love em all.

[Slow Ben]

Abyss, on 10 January 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 10 January 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

D, on 10 January 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

That milking scene tho

LOL. I don't quite know what he was going for there...was it straight up goofy humour, or more "slice of Luke Island Life" or both?

Dr Seuss tribute.

Milking a plain belly sneech? They're the worst kind of sneech on the beaches.

[Nevyn]

Slow Ben, on 11 January 2018 - 12:01 AM, said:

Abyss, on 10 January 2018 - 05:56 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 10 January 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

D, on 10 January 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

That milking scene tho

LOL. I don't quite know what he was going for there...was it straight up goofy humour, or more "slice of Luke Island Life" or both?

Dr Seuss tribute.

Milking a plain belly sneech? They're the worst kind of sneech on the beaches.

Sneechy Beetchees!

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 11 January 2018 - 04:58 AM